Stupidity on snow

[tufty]

boris, no disrespect but depending on the lift if you whack a stop on a lift running at 400 or more it takes awhile for it to stop.

(French) regulation stop time on a fixed chair lift running at top speed (2.5 m/s) is enough that, if someone fails to get off before the point at which their feet leave the ground, (usually, but not always, at the point where the chair enters the bullwheel) they haven't actually left the bullwheel by the time the lift comes to a halt. The override gate works so that the chair is stopped (probably past the bullwheel) at a point where it's possible to unload the passenger without significant danger, although this may involve ladders.

As Bob says, if someone fails to get off the lift - well, they fscked up. It's usually not the kids that do this, unless they are completely new at the game, too small to have their feet hit the ground, or are being "helped" by an over-cautious parent. In this case, kids will usually stay on the chair (screaming) until they hit the bar and stop. The main danger here is *not* to the kid, but to the parent who will stop instantly, turn round, and get a chair to the face. There is nothing the liftie can do about this - by the time it's happened, it's too late to react.

Again, as Bob says, if someone gets off too late and jumps, they (usually) fsked up. The correct action is to stay on the lift, trip the bar, and get off at a standstill. With adults, it's usually the adult at the outside who does this (and it's not always their fault - if the person inboard of them has blocked them on the cair, they are stuffed), when they jump they will 4 times out of 10 take out the rest of the group. Again, by the time the liftie has realised what's happening, it's too damn late to stop it.

As a liftie, anticipating this kind of thing is difficult to impossible. With a chairload of kids arriving, your finger hovers over the "slow" button before the kids arrive, but for adults it's almost impossible to second-guess what's gonna happen. Remember, you have a chair arriving every 6 to 7 seconds, you have 2 seconds maximum to decide if you need to slow or kill the lift. Stops happen *only* in an emergency as they can cause dangers elsewhere (i.e. the chair currently arriving, and the one(s) departing the takeoff), it usually takes a good 20-30 seconds to get things rolling again, up to a minute for an emergency stop. Even slowdowns should be exceptional - if your 10 minute lift ride takes 25 minutes because of continual slowdowns, anyone gets pissy.

Anyway, accidents happen. If you hit a liftie over here, you can expect a night in the cells.

One thing I'd like to see is ski areas encouraging their lifties to be more vocal. the way some resorts run their mazes and loading areas is terrible. mammoth and a few NH ski areas are great examples. you'll watch half empty or empty chairs go by but yet there's a massive line waiting in the maze. not to mention the loading area being mess because there's no one actively doing what they need to be to get people down the ramp and into chairs.

That's often a problem with the clients as well. It doesn't matter how vocal you are, some people will *insist* on going up alone, or with their partner. When I was doing loading, we had a separate line in peak season for those willing to "fill" - when people realise that they're waiting 20 minutes in the queue so they can go up with their mates, but people are going straight past them, without waiting, to fill in the holes, they soon get the idea. The ones who want to go alone generally go the the gate, ready to go up with a chairload, then deliberately "hold back". the answer to this is simple - pull them aside to let the people behind through, then...

"Sir, If you want to go alone, please feel free to come back when there's less of a queue. Otherwise, wait with me until there's a hole you can fill"

If they've come through the "filler" queue, it's "please take off your skis and go to the back of the queue"

Lifties can **** up your day, but it's not what we're paid to do. Mainly, we want an easy life - good loading and unloading is an easy life for us. We'll only actively **** you over if you try and **** *us* over.

As the matter of fact, there are two buttons, emergency "dead" stop and "soft" stop.

You know what the difference between the two buttons is, right? I'm guessing "no"

[John E]

Wow - I've never been quoted before.

Idea for another bumper sticker: "Hang up & Ride"

[carvedog]

I actually answered my phone while going down 2 feet of untracked in the side country last year. :)

I love my phone, cuz it allows me to get on the hill and still be reached.

I still have to work to afford my sport, I rarely get days to just go play.

By having a cell with I was able to pick up a handy little job for the NY Times a couple of years ago.

Bad business to be unreachable at times.

I would run the **** over anybody chatting on the runout to a chairlift though......

[Dave ESPI]

Because cell phone use, and Ipod use is DISCOURAGED, not FORBIDDEN!

:AR15firin:angryfire:angryfire

Just waiting for Bobdea to weigh in.

LMAO.

anecdote of mine: I was sitting on the 6 pack lift this weekend.... a guy was talking to his kid on a cell who was one chair back. I knew this cause he turned around and waved.

HELOOOOOOOOO you can just yell to the kid!

this was annoying because they continued to talk even as getting off the lift as we go past a 4 foot by 4 foot sign that says to not use cells while riding down trails or de-boarding the lifts which I pointed out after he tangled his poles in my bindings with one hand when the safety bar went up.

idiots.....

[bobdea]

Bob, I appreciate the input from lifty perspective.... but:

The procedure I described is "by the book" and we are all trained to understand it and perform it, instructors and lifties. Guy didn't even try to do anything and didn't follow my instruction, given well ahead by signal and verbal. It all happened on the begginer lift and that chair stops on the press of the button. As the matter of fact, there are two buttons, emergency "dead" stop and "soft" stop. All he had to do, even without slowing the lift, was to help the child of the chair. No excuses.

Generally, our lifties do great job and do prevent 90% of dangerous situations. Even if the lift stops a bit more then it should, it is better to be safe then sorry. We all try to live by it. Well, most of us...

right, I am saying that most operators are not dependable, even the better ones screw up. even if it's by the book, don't count on it.

it goes the other way too, lots of instructors don't do what they are supposed to either.

[bobdea]

LMAO.

anecdote of mine: I was sitting on the 6 pack lift this weekend.... a guy was talking to his kid on a cell who was one chair back. I knew this cause he turned around and waved.

HELOOOOOOOOO you can just yell to the kid!

this was annoying because they continued to talk even as getting off the lift as we go past a 4 foot by 4 foot sign that says to not use cells while riding down trails or de-boarding the lifts which I pointed out after he tangled his poles in my bindings with one hand when the safety bar went up.

idiots.....

OMFG! ESPI just pointed out my point in the other thread! lol

[Keenan]

Last season I was at the top of a run, I had just clipped in, was turned sideways so I could let the people I was riding with get a start and a monoskier slid onto my board. He just stood there, I got in his face ,which wasn't hard to do since he was inches away, and said "If I were to ski over someone's equipment I would at least say I'm sorry!" His reply was "You rode under my ski!" My reply was " Oh I'm sorry. I accidentally slid sideways, uphill under your ski. YOU IDIOT!" He stepped off my board and said nothing.

I still feel guilty for not laying the mofo out. Next time...

[BlueB]

(French) regulation stop time on a fixed chair lift running at top speed (2.5 m/s) is enough that, if someone fails to get off before the point at which their feet leave the ground, (usually, but not always, at the point where the chair enters the bullwheel) they haven't actually left the bullwheel by the time the lift comes to a halt. The override gate works so that the chair is stopped (probably past the bullwheel) at a point where it's possible to unload the passenger without significant danger, although this may involve ladders.

As Bob says, if someone fails to get off the lift - well, they fscked up. It's usually not the kids that do this, unless they are completely new at the game, too small to have their feet hit the ground, or are being "helped" by an over-cautious parent. In this case, kids will usually stay on the chair (screaming) until they hit the bar and stop. The main danger here is *not* to the kid, but to the parent who will stop instantly, turn round, and get a chair to the face. There is nothing the liftie can do about this - by the time it's happened, it's too late to react.

Again, as Bob says, if someone gets off too late and jumps, they (usually) fsked up. The correct action is to stay on the lift, trip the bar, and get off at a standstill. With adults, it's usually the adult at the outside who does this (and it's not always their fault - if the person inboard of them has blocked them on the cair, they are stuffed), when they jump they will 4 times out of 10 take out the rest of the group. Again, by the time the liftie has realised what's happening, it's too damn late to stop it.

As a liftie, anticipating this kind of thing is difficult to impossible. With a chairload of kids arriving, your finger hovers over the "slow" button before the kids arrive, but for adults it's almost impossible to second-guess what's gonna happen. Remember, you have a chair arriving every 6 to 7 seconds, you have 2 seconds maximum to decide if you need to slow or kill the lift. Stops happen *only* in an emergency as they can cause dangers elsewhere (i.e. the chair currently arriving, and the one(s) departing the takeoff), it usually takes a good 20-30 seconds to get things rolling again, up to a minute for an emergency stop. Even slowdowns should be exceptional - if your 10 minute lift ride takes 25 minutes because of continual slowdowns, anyone gets pissy.

Anyway, accidents happen. If you hit a liftie over here, you can expect a night in the cells.

That's often a problem with the clients as well. It doesn't matter how vocal you are, some people will *insist* on going up alone, or with their partner. When I was doing loading, we had a separate line in peak season for those willing to "fill" - when people realise that they're waiting 20 minutes in the queue so they can go up with their mates, but people are going straight past them, without waiting, to fill in the holes, they soon get the idea. The ones who want to go alone generally go the the gate, ready to go up with a chairload, then deliberately "hold back". the answer to this is simple - pull them aside to let the people behind through, then...

"Sir, If you want to go alone, please feel free to come back when there's less of a queue. Otherwise, wait with me until there's a hole you can fill"

If they've come through the "filler" queue, it's "please take off your skis and go to the back of the queue"

Lifties can **** up your day, but it's not what we're paid to do. Mainly, we want an easy life - good loading and unloading is an easy life for us. We'll only actively **** you over if you try and **** *us* over.

You know what the difference between the two buttons is, right? I'm guessing "no"

Hey, it seems that I insulted the international lifty community by my poor joke about beating up lifties... It wasn't the intention and I had a smiley there. Accept my apology, please. It's been 20 years since I've been in a physical fight. You would get a night in cell for hitting a person just about in any civilised country.

Just to highlight, if you didn't see it in my post: the kid in question was 5 years old, he got injured and it was preventable.

And yes, I know the difference between the 2 red buttons, otherwise I wouldn't be talking about them.

Peace.

[BlueB]

right, I am saying that most operators are not dependable, even the better ones screw up. even if it's by the book, don't count on it.

it goes the other way too, lots of instructors don't do what they are supposed to either.

Bob, we perfectly understand each other on this one.

[bobdea]

Bob, we perfectly understand each other on this one.

I've pissed off some instructors. also have had instructors request me at certain lifts because I'm vocal and can load n00bs like no one's business.

If I ran a resort I'd try to make it part of the training for lifties to shadow lessons for a day and instructors to be lifties for a day.

honestly would make both sides better.

Quality is something that is seriously lacking in both jobs at all resorts that I know of. the majority are on the low end of satisfactory. many are not at all and few are really good at it.

economics really are what it comes down to. both groups barely make enough to survive and few are willing to do that long term.

I did because I love to ride a lot and I enjoy being outside. but I'm out of it so I guess that says something too.

[BlueB]

I hear you and I agree. Actually, I do not understand how they make the living... I do it for the love of it and p/t wages just pay the gas to the mountain.

When I worked Kids Camp before, part of the job was to run the magic carpet from time to time.

But we are very O/T with this... Now I have to tell stupidity story. Mine, never the less! :D

While teaching some very young kids to ski, working towards parallel turns, I was skiing in front of them, backwards, so I could see what they were doing and talk corrections. Lazy carve to the left, lazy carve to the right, then leeeeee... down the steep drop off at the edge of the trail and into dense trees.

As I crawled back up, pride totally shaterred, and noticed the amazed/amuzed faces, I quickly had to come up with a come back line: "Demonstration: always look wher you are going!" :D

[tufty]

Hey, it seems that I insulted the international lifty community by my poor joke about beating up lifties... It wasn't the intention and I had a smiley there. Accept my apology, please. It's been 20 years since I've been in a physical fight. You would get a night in cell for hitting a person just about in any civilised country.

Fair enough, I misread things, and with the fact that I block *all* smilies, I don't see them. Sorry if I got pissy over it.

Just to highlight, if you didn't see it in my post: the kid in question was 5 years old, he got injured and it was preventable.

It may or may not have been preventable - people fall and jump from lifts all the time before you, as a liftie, have a chance to react. I certainly agree that if the kid was on the floor the lift should have been stopped if there was any danger of someone catching a chair to the face or someone coming off the lift and colliding with the kiddie or any of his / her entourage, though. That's bad (and reprimandable) form.

And yes, I know the difference between the 2 red buttons, otherwise I wouldn't be talking about them.

Respectfully, by your referring to them as emergency "dead" stop and "soft" stop, I don't think you do, or at least not fully. A quick bit of "chairlift stopping 101".

Lifts brake / stop in 3 separate and unconnected manners.

Motor electrical braking - by reducing the current and reversing phases to the motor, the lift is slowed and brought to a halt using *only* the driving motor itself.

Motor friction braking - by actioning the disk brake at the motor driveshaft, the lift is slowed and stopped by frictional forces.

Emergency braking - by actioning the brakes on the drive pulley rim, the lift is stopped by frictional forces.

That's the 3 *physical* mechanisms for stopping a lift in normal circumstances.

Next up, there are 3 separate braking regimes for a lift, each actioned by a separate button and / or series of events.

Firstly, the "parking brake". This drops everything and slams the lift to a halt should it be running. It is almost *never* used whilst the lift is running, as it tends to do things like "bend the pylons" and "throw passengers out of their seats". Seriously. The button for this is generally covered and locked. It is the only "dead" stop on a lift.

Nextly, "electric stop" or "normal" braking (what you're referring to as "soft braking"). It's the smaller of the 2 buttons a liftie has at his disposal, but the most important. This is the fastest way to stop the lift safely. It uses the brakes on the motor driveshaft and the electrical braking of the motor itself to bring the lift to a standstill respecting the braking curves defined for the machine.

Finally, there's the "emergency" stop (what you're referring to as the "dead" stop). It has a much bigger button, and stops the lift uniquely through friction braking on both the motor drive shaft and the drive pulley rim. The emergency stop is significantly slower to bring the lift to a halt than the electrical stop, but it can (and will) stop the lift in the case of cable runaway, cable reversing, drive pulley axle breakage, gearbox breakage or any number of other mechanical problems. It's not only slower to stop the machine using the emergency brake, it's also significantly slower to restart it afterwards. Excessive use of this button tends to result in lifties getting their wrists slapped.

The parking brake is only actionable by the driver. The normal brake is actionable by the driver and any other people working on the lift. the emergency brake is actional by the driver, other people working on the lift, clients (using the emergency buttons you see occasionally), and the machine itself in the case of a fault occurring.

There is no button that can be used to instantly bring a lift to a halt whilst it has people on it, at least not without causing major injuries to a significant number of people. Us lifties have dark and mysterious powers, but we can't overcome inertia.

[bobdea]

here, the e-stop on mosts lifts does stop the lift faster. it's not good for the lift, takes longer to get the thing started because you have to pump brakes and on some lift e-stops tend to trip spacing systems

[photodad2001]

"Cell phone etiquette" is an oxymoron.

It seems like so many on their phones are thinking of no one else but themselves and whomever is on the other end.

If I were behind you on the lift & seen you smash her phone I would have cheered wildly. Somehow they need to get the message that its not all about them.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcVy3C2u5WI&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcVy3C2u5WI&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Hugh]

Because cell phone use, and Ipod use is DISCOURAGED, not FORBIDDEN!

:AR15firin:angryfire:angryfire

Just waiting for Bobdea to weigh in.

Double machine guns + evil mad, that I like!

:AR15firin:angryfire

Cell phone talking while driving is everywhere now, after the CA hands free while driving law passed (forgot to also ban texting in the original law ), people everywhere were cautious, but now everyone is blaa blaa and driving like idiots too.

--Hugh

[bigdyno]

They Just passed a law in Ontario banning the hand held use of electronics. This applies to Cell (talk and text), GPS, MP3 and satellite radio. It also leaves the door open for any future devices. It carries a $500 fine, but they are only handing out warnings until February. We'll see what happens then. I think there will be someone that puts up a large fight in court shortly thereafter.

There is a big push in Edmonton for companies to ban employee cell use while driving company cars, I expect to see Alberta join the club by this time next year.

[Neil Gendzwill]

The cell phone ban starts in Saskatchewan on January 1. No holding phones to your ear while driving, but blue tooth is OK. $280 fine first time. Stores are having quite the run on blue tooth devices.

[scrapster]

Really interesting stuff on skiing and snowboarding injuries, and their causes, in the NYTimes recently:

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/16/phys-ed-how-to-avoid-injury-on-the-slopes/?scp=1&sq=skiing%20safety&st=cse

Some not surprising stuff (skiers hit snowboarders more often than the other way around) and intriguing findings (drinking while skiing/boarding causes less injuries than people toking up when on the slopes.)

[two_ravens]

Really interesting stuff on skiing and snowboarding injuries, and their causes, in the NYTimes recently:

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/16/phys-ed-how-to-avoid-injury-on-the-slopes/?scp=1&sq=skiing%20safety&st=cse

Some not surprising stuff (skiers hit snowboarders more often than the other way around) and intriguing findings (drinking while skiing/boarding causes less injuries than people toking up when on the slopes.)

Hey!!! I just posted that link yesterday in the off topic world (cuz it's mostly about skiing)! You trying to steal my thunder?!? ;)

As I see it, the problem with skiers is that 4 edges are just too much for most people to keep track off...

[scrapster]

Hey!!! I just posted that link yesterday in the off topic world (cuz it's mostly about skiing)! You trying to steal my thunder?!? ;)

As I see it, the problem with skiers is that 4 edges are just too much for most people to keep track off...

My sincere apologies!!! I too debated the on-or-off topic dilemma. (And if I had debated a little more thoroughly, I would have probably seen your post :o)

[NMU Alpine Boarder]

Not on snow, but good for a chuckle today none the less...

Not in the lift line, but this should be good for a chuckle...

I'm currently working part time at a Dick's Sporting Goods selling skis/boards among other things... Some woman came in today wanting to purchase snowboard boots for her son... Now, I am real hesitant about blindly guessing at someone's boot needs without them there, so I went through my schpiel about how important boot sizing is... In there, I mention that it's normal to have to downsize 1-2 boot sizes from your normal shoe size...

Well, this woman tells me that I am flat out wrong because her son told her that he needs a size 11 and that you need to GO UP A SIZE from what you wear in street shoes...

Despite my objections, the woman went ahead and got a pair of size 11 Burton Motos... I can only imagine what that kids ankles and feet feel like an hour or two into his day...