Carving gap between skiers and alpine snowboarders closing

[Dave ESPI]

I was out doing some riding this weeekend ( FINALY ! ) and I saw a really REALLY good skier doing some really deep carves and it was nice to see. I recalled this thread and specifficly watched the movement of his feet. I would say that he was using the outside ski to initiate and hold the turn then the inside to stand it back up and thrust it back over to the other side....

Was cool to watch, Wish I had my video camera.

[boostertwo]

If you enjoy Ron LeMaster's photosequences of high performance skiing, you might also enjoy his new book.

Ultimate Skiing presents lots of useful, well-organized and easy to understand info on physics, mechanics, and high performance technique. IMO it's a very useful resource for aspiring snowboarders as well as skiers.

<img src="http://i48.tinypic.com/245ykvo.jpg" border="0" alt="Unknown Rider, Aspen Slalom, Aspen, CO.">

Hope it's snowing where you are.

B-2

[lonbordin]

If you enjoy Ron LeMaster's photosequences of high performance skiing, you might also enjoy his new book.

He has several good articles freely available on his site as well. Nice resource!

[inkaholic]

<img src="http://i48.tinypic.com/245ykvo.jpg" border="0" alt="Unknown Rider, Aspen Slalom, Aspen, CO.">

Hope it's snowing where you are.

B-2

Very cool sequence of Ryan McDonald.

Ink

[David Glynn]

This is my take on turn initiation for carving the groomed.

Initiate the turn with the downhill(outside) ski, with your little toe, by trying to push it down into the snow. That move will push the ski a little forward but more importantly will pull the hips and every thing else along with it into the new turn. If you continue to focus on that little toe into the new turn you will find your weight more evenly distributed on both skies. Then it is a mater of whether you choose to keep it there.

Personally I'm a big fan of the downhill ski, especially on steeper runs. I tend to use my uphill ski a lot in moguls but the dominate ski is still the downhill ski.

The downhill ski will tend to move forward in the initiation and then catch up to, and then pass the new downhill ski through the turn. This is a function of biomechanics, and happens naturally. It can, of course, be reduced or exagerated for various reasons.

I have an issue with that natural move being countered in some of today's instruction methods especially to lower and mid level skiers.

I also like to turn my brain off when free skiing and just feel. I hate it when it gets in the way. I think it is one of those man made obstacles we are warned about on the back of our passes.

[Jack M]

Another interesting thing I notice about carving as taught to skiers, is that it seems based on the artificial constraints of traditional ski racing. An example of this would be the countered upper body. You can see in any GS race that the countered upper body allows the skier to hit the gate without injuring them selves, but is it the best technique for free carving? Look at carving cup photos, where the artificial constraint of the gate poles is not there. The skiers are free to use their bodies in the most effective way to carve. Many of the Carving cup racers are ex regular ski racers, and if the countered upper body worked better, I'm sure they would use it. The Carving cup technique used on a GS race course might end up with a decapitation.

http://www.carvingcup.com/ATLETI/foto_bondone3.html

The carving cup guy in the photo on the left in your post is still significantly angulated. I strongly believe more level shoulders is better for balance, and I know a level head is.

[Beckmann AG]

FSguy

"...why are ski racers faster?"

Perhaps they are more effective in their use of the equipment?

Snappy photomontages notwithstanding, a fast time in a course often comes down to those things that are either fairly hard to see, or somewhat abstract.

[Jack M]

3. No skier ever achieves 50/50 weight distribution. Carving the inside ski is a huge part of high end skiing but there is always more weight on the outside ski. This is not a bad thing.

I swear I've seen a guy who looked like he was doing it. Eric Schneider, not that I think anyone here but Beckman knows that name.

My question is....maybe a comment...buy why are ski racers faster

I think a big part of it is they have a safety net (another ski) and we don't. Skiers can recover a lot better and faster than us. They can also "recover" before it even looks like anything has gone wrong - I think a good skier is continually performing "traction control", and is standing more on the ski with the better edge hold at any given instant. Or at least they have that option.

They simply have (roughly) twice as much edge to use, and an infinitely larger base area upon which to balance. It is easier for a skier to decouple their c.o.g. from uneven terrain.

[Beckmann AG]

I swear I've seen a guy who looked like he was doing it. Eric Schneider, not that I think anyone here but Beckman knows that name.

Standing backward in his bindings, on a pair of 'straight' VR27s, with only moderate angulation. Quite the specimen.

[BobD]

The carving cup guy in the photo on the left in your post is still significantly angulated. I strongly believe more level shoulders is better for balance, and I know a level head is.

In the photos, the hips are always counter rotated, this gives the angulation. The upper body in most of the photos is not countered. It looks very similar to the prerotated upper body of EC snowboard carving. I can not imagine that these racers are not using a technique that works best for them. If it were only one or two that did not look like FIS GS racers, then I would think them an exception, but it is most of them. I read in in article in ski magizine about the coaching these teams get. So I would figure the coaches know what works best for the type of turns they are making.

I know what you are saying Jack. When conditions are bad, I get very angulated on skis, and boards, but what the Carving cup skiers are doing must be working for them, or someone would come along and clean up with a normal GS technique.

I suspect that especially on skis at extreme inclinations. the tension of a pre rotated upper body drive the front half of the ski edges downwards. On a snowboard, we can do this by applying more weight to the front foot. On skis, the same effect could only be created by the tension of pre rotation.

I'm just throwing out ideas here. I think alpine snowboarders have an innate feel for carving, and can offer a different perspective on ski carving.

BobD

[BlueB]

From Carving Cup gallery:

[BlueB]

This article explains the reason (at least for me), and describes the feeling I get when completing turns, and into the transition.

http://www.yourskicoach.com/YourSkiCoach/Inside_Leg_Extension.html

Great article Bob, thanks!

I tend to do that a lot, combined with collapsing of the (old) outside leg. The centrifugal force takes over and just flips me into the next turn.

[Fastskiguy]

Could be that the carving cup guys don't need to use as much counter rotation...maybe the terrain isn't quite as steep or icy? If the conditions are just a little easier then they can move their center of mass a little more over the round gate thing (what's that called anyway?) and get to the bottom faster with more inclination and less angulation?

This last picture shows a pretty extreme position, his hip is only a few inches from the snow-quite impressive!

In the photos, the hips are always counter rotated, this gives the angulation. The upper body in most of the photos is not countered. It looks very similar to the prerotated upper body of EC snowboard carving. I can not imagine that these racers are not using a technique that works best for them. If it were only one or two that did not look like FIS GS racers, then I would think them an exception, but it is most of them. I read in in article in ski magizine about the coaching these teams get. So I would figure the coaches know what works best for the type of turns they are making.

I know what you are saying Jack. When conditions are bad, I get very angulated on skis, and boards, but what the Carving cup skiers are doing must be working for them, or someone would come along and clean up with a normal GS technique.

I suspect that especially on skis at extreme inclinations. the tension of a pre rotated upper body drive the front half of the ski edges downwards. On a snowboard, we can do this by applying more weight to the front foot. On skis, the same effect could only be created by the tension of pre rotation.

I'm just throwing out ideas here. I think alpine snowboarders have an innate feel for carving, and can offer a different perspective on ski carving.

BobD

[BobD]

This is my favorite photo from that site. The skier is riding the rut, and definitely trailing his inside shoulder. Most importantly though, he looks like he is really enjoying that turn.

BobD

[Jack M]

<img src="http://www.carvingcup.com/ATLETI/FOTO_BONDONE_1000/IR4L4619.jpg" width=600>

I hear what you're saying BobD and you may be on to something, but I'd say the above two pictures look very similar technique-wise, and I'd say the GS racer is in a more balanced position.

But man I still cannot get my head around the sight of a skier without poles! It just looks so politicallyincorrectslur to me, lol.

[BobD]

Try this at home. Sit in a chair, and position yourself in a heelside turn on an alpine board. Your hips are countered, and per Phil fell's oft advice (as I understand it), your upper body is aligned with your hips, so there is no tension at the waist. Your feet should feel in a very natural position, leaning 45 to 60 degrees forward. Now imagine that you have skis on your feet, and force your feet to rotate further forward into a skiing position (keep your upper body aligned with your hips). To me, this feels very unnatural, and I find it hard to rotate my feet further as if to press the front edges of the skis downwards. Now rotate your upper body into the turn. The sides of your feet start pressing on the floor, and you may even feel the heel of what would be your outside ski foot lift up.

That's what I see as difference between the last two photos. The countered upper body of the GS racer and the rotated upper body of the CC racer. In fact looking again at the GS skier, the front half of his outside ski is noe even decambered, but the tail is, perhaps illustrating what I was trying to say.

BobD

[Speedzilla]

BobD in action at Buck Hill's Carving Cup on Sunday:

[Fastskiguy]

BobD in action at Buck Hill's Carving Cup on Sunday:

Quit your job and move to Europe, you've got great form!

[patmoore]

My question is....maybe a comment...buy why are ski racers faster?

Sometimes they aren't. I'm the NASTAR pacesetter for Okemo. On most weekends I set one course with ski gates and the other with snowboard panels. I do the pacesetting for both courses on skis. On occasion some very good board racers show up and it's not at all unusual for them to beat the time I set on skis. The biggest advantage a skier has is the ability to skate and pole out of the start. Boarders can only coast. Once the first few gates are passed, a good boarder is every bit as fast as a good skier.

[lonbordin]

So are we advocating entry cutes or launch devices at the start gates?

Then we can have a run what you brung races... snowboards vs. skis vs. monoboards?! The fastest wins!

GO!

I'd watch.

[Fastskiguy]

Well it does make you wonder if you could make a course that would put everybody on equal footing. A steep start ramp, stubby "gates", and a turny course and maybe we could all be racing each other for beers.

At the race leagues I've been in the snowboarders get creamed big time...but the courses are usually pretty straight with just one or two critical turns. And flat starting ramps too.

So are we advocating entry cutes or launch devices at the start gates?

Then we can have a run what you brung races... snowboards vs. skis vs. monoboards?! The fastest wins!

GO!

I'd watch.

[lonbordin]

NASTAR at my local hill has a real flat start... I felt so slow compared to the skiers. So I borrowed a pole and did some push poling before the first gate and tossed the pole... I managed to catch up quite a bit by doing that.

I'd love a steep start and low gates!!

[BobD]

Quit your job and move to Europe, you've got great form!

Thanks, but I've only been skiing a few years. A couple of regular, more experianced GS racers beat me. But I think it shows what a great foundation riding an alpine board is, if you want to carve on skis.

BobD

[Jack M]

Once the first few gates are passed, a good boarder is every bit as fast as a good skier.

I wouldn't know, but... maybe in Nastar, but I'd be extremely surprised if this were true at the wc level. A skier has too many mechanical advantages.

[ursle]

Sometimes they aren't. I'm the NASTAR pacesetter for Okemo. On most weekends I set one course with ski gates and the other with snowboard panels. I do the pacesetting for both courses on skis. On occasion some very good board racers show up and it's not at all unusual for them to beat the time I set on skis. The biggest advantage a skier has is the ability to skate and pole out of the start. Boarders can only coast. Once the first few gates are passed, a good boarder is every bit as fast as a good skier.

Hmm, if a boarder beats your actual time on skis it only means he or she is faster than you, not that boards are as fast. They deduct 10 handicap points for boarders because of the advantage skiers have on the course... in the gate and rebound on every turn, and a skier can get very low and ride the tail on the course at Okemo to cut the wind... on a board well I'm still trying to figure out how to do that:) Turn shape of a ski and board are different, a board has to be rounder, a ski just heads straight at the gate and J-turns it, which gives the advantage to the skier also.

Back to the op: in my opinion... in the late 60's when skis started to have shape and real edges and boots got stiffer and racers started to carve ice it was a beautiful thing. Very few skiers were carvers, most just did a controlled slide, just like today. In my opinion carving on ice hasn't changed much since then, the equipement has improved... either you're cutting a nice carve on ice or you're not, if it's faster and more efficient to carve ice on two skis vs one ski so be it...I used to love ski carving but I saw riders carving tighter turns so I jumped on a board. I still think boards cut a tighter turn on ice And I know riding is 10 times more fun;)

jmho