Carving gap between skiers and alpine snowboarders closing

[Seraph]

I've been out with some friends this fall going "rollerskating".

the old 4 wheels and even though I am "OK" at it, my friends made mention how I look like Im skiing on wheels with my movements and even in the turns I hold form as if I was on a carver leaning into the inside front foot... LOL.

yeah I guess I'm Guilty. I have not had on a pair of skis since my very first time on snow almost 20 years ago. I decided I will "learn" to ski this winter.

May my Xmas wish of an Injury-free season come true.

Dave,

You need to learn how to double push!

[Dave ESPI]

Seraph, I can not do that technique on 4 wheels as it requires a severe lean. I can do crossovers and step pushes, and can sweep turns and power stroke pumps down the straight away, but its a tad different with inline skates.

These are the "sorts" of friends I hang/ skate with.... hahaha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1uAgwdC4JI

http://www.hellionsoftroyrollerderby.com/

I taught "Tenderloin" how to snowboard lastyear,and I ride/ ski with a bunch of them too.. so they are teachin me some sweet moves this year as a pre-season lack of snow cross training.... Im just going to have to refrain from throwing arms and elbow chops at people in the trails :P)

[BobD]

Commentary seems to be by Harald Harb, one of the "patron saints" of ski carving.

Watch for the "phantom move" - very important for edge-to-edge transition without skid. It can be taken one step further (at least for fun carving) and actually engage that ski first! Majority of the skiers still want to initiate their next carve with the current inside ski, which is a bad practice.

With a bit of luck, I'll get to work on my ski carving a bit, tomorrow, on nice frozen cord ;)

Hey, now you can moderate yourself and move this to OT, like you did with the other ski carving tread :D ;)

To my eyes, nearly every transition had, the old inside ski on the new edge first, long before the new inside ski was on edge. That's the way I carve on skis, and I'm told it's wrong. Is the inside ski recruiting the outside ski, a mental image for instruction that doesn't exist outside PSIA models ? Lifting the old outside ski at transition is another interesting no no. The video shows it several times. I have a theory that it is beneficial to the carve, to pressure the rear edge of the outside side in the last stages of the turn, even as pressure is built on the inside ski to aid transition with inside leg extension. It's rather like Jack's feeding the dollar bills into a vending machine. I think this is one advantage skis have over boards, that each ski can perform a different function at any one time. The outside ski can finish the turn, while the inside ski can start the new turn.

It's always find it hard to talk to skiers about this stuff, because they don't have the same frame of reference.

BobD

[BlueB]

Yeah-They're super qucik sticks and if you get in the back seat at all at these lengths, racers cannot recover like they used to on longer overall running lengths.

Yup, even on my 164 Metrons I set the bindings as far forward as they would go. Gives me more tail to ride at the finish of the turn and they dont run away from me when I'm lazy or tired to do propper cross-trough, but just roll my bum right over the tails, without even getting higher.

Doug,

WHat the other posters said, separate the knees as much as possible, initiate with downhill ski (that would become uphill in th next turn). Also, try to spread the stance so much that you literraly sit on the upper ski at high ege angles.

Phil,

I would love to have 170+ skis with SL cut, say 12m, for freecarving. More edge for more hold, more length for bigger sweet spot, tight radius for crazy hookup. As I'm not racing, flickabillity of the ski is not an issue. For the same reasons, I would like to see less taper and bindigs further forward.

[BobD]

Yup, even on my 164 Metrons I set the bindings as far forward as they would go. Gives me more tail to ride at the finish of the turn and they dont run away from me when I'm lazy or tired to do propper cross-trough, but just roll my bum right over the tails, without even getting higher.

QUOTE]

I do the same on my metrons. Just a pain when you get into some powder though :lol:

BobD

[TheTruth]

very cool vid

does anyone know what these races are on for

slalom? i assume 150, 155

165 cm for men

155 cm for women

True Race Stock slaloms are a blast to ski on, but VERY exhausting. You need to be on your "A" game at all times, or the skis will take you for a bull ride.

[Dave ESPI]

To my eyes, nearly every transition had, the old inside ski on the new edge first, long before the new inside ski was on edge. That's the way I carve on skis, and I'm told it's wrong. Is the inside ski recruiting the outside ski, a mental image for instruction that doesn't exist outside PSIA models ? Lifting the old outside ski at transition is another interesting no no. The video shows it several times. I have a theory that it is beneficial to the carve, to pressure the rear edge of the outside side in the last stages of the turn, even as pressure is built on the inside ski to aid transition with inside leg extension. It's rather like Jack's feeding the dollar bills into a vending machine. I think this is one advantage skis have over boards, that each ski can perform a different function at any one time. The outside ski can finish the turn, while the inside ski can start the new turn.

It's always find it hard to talk to skiers about this stuff, because they don't have the same frame of reference.

BobD

Holy crap that actualy made complete logical sense to me.

I don't really know the first thing about PSIA and how to SKI, but after watching the video and doing a quick read-up on the PSIA site about techniques they talk about as "core values" I would definaely have to challenge them on their thinking. It is akin to "no fall snowboarding" versus "ASSI". Same stuff, but a different way of looking at it.

I wonder if a snowboarder who really never learned how to ski can be a better skier than.... well a skier in due time ?

[TheTruth]

Watch the race at full speed:

Then you can really appreciate the skill these athletes have.

[patmoore]

On four separate occasions Doug Lewis has advised me to get 100% of my weight on my outside ski when GS racing. That's good advice for someone starting out but to take it to the next level, I need to start transitioning to my inside ski sooner. I've always thought Finland's Tanja Poutiainen came close to the ideal technique (see below). There's no way I could ever get this low while relying solely on the outside ski.

Greg Gurshman has penned a very insightful article on the modern GS turn at youcanski.com.

Here's an excerpt: The phases of a turn typically have different lengths. The length of each phase depends on the steepness of a hill and the shape of a turn. The steeper the slope and rounder the turn, the shorter phases-II and III have to be in order to maintain speed. In case of a long sweeping turn executed on a flat to medium pitch, the lengths of all three phases can be nearly the same. Only in this particular situation can weight distribution between the skis be maintained near 50/50 practically throughout the entire turn. This is just a particular case of a GS or a super- G turn that is erroneously considered by some instructors and coaches to be a basic technique that dictates how the inside ski is used in all turns.

In regular turns on steep to medium pitch the approximate ratio of pressure distribution between the skis is as following:

____________Outside ski ______Inside ski

Phase - I ___80%_____________20%

Phase - II ___65% -70% ______ 35% - 30%

Phase - III___50% - 60%_______50% - 40%

With a severely arthritic right knee I recognize there are limitations as to how far I can go adopting this technique but my goal this season is to at least make some progress.

[b0ardski]

I would interested to see picture examples corresponding to the 3 phase/weight distibutions. Side by side with the same phase of a snowboard carve would be awesome

That pic of Tanja is a perfect example of 50/50 weight and inside lead but it looks like phase 2.

FWIW when my ski carves get low and start to feel like board carves my muscles are struggling to maintain 50/50 weight through the transition into the next turn.

[JK moscraciun]

look here for multiphase ski photography

http://ronlemaster.com/images/ultimate-skiing/index.html

http://ronlemaster.com/images/2006-2007-B/index.html

http://ronlemaster.com/images.html

I would interested to see picture examples corresponding to the 3 phase/weight distibutions. Side by side with the same phase of a snowboard carve would be awesome

That pic of Tanja is a perfect example of 50/50 weight and inside lead but it looks like phase 2.

FWIW when my ski carves get low and start to feel like board carves my muscles are struggling to maintain 50/50 weight through the transition into the next turn.

[patmoore]

Your side-by-side comment got me thinking. Here are two shots taken of me the same day at Telluride. I used Photoshop to reverse the ski image so that both shots show a turn to the left. Not much weight on the inside ski and a bad problem with "A framing". That problem has since been eliminated by planing Lange plug boots to offset the 5.5 degree inward inclination of my bad knee. I can get lower on the board than the skis. Need to work on technique of both!

[b0ardski]

Would love to see similar shots of snow board.

[b0ardski]

Thanks to Ron LeMaster for the pics

This ones great to show the path of the feet compared to the path of the center of mass, very similar in snowboard carving

[Phil]

Would love to see similar shots of snow board.

Boostertwo?

[JK moscraciun]

Boostertwo?

If I'm not wrong B Bordy is in possession of such a multishot

[BobD]

Another interesting thing I notice about carving as taught to skiers, is that it seems based on the artificial constraints of traditional ski racing. An example of this would be the countered upper body. You can see in any GS race that the countered upper body allows the skier to hit the gate without injuring them selves, but is it the best technique for free carving? Look at carving cup photos, where the artificial constraint of the gate poles is not there. The skiers are free to use their bodies in the most effective way to carve. Many of the Carving cup racers are ex regular ski racers, and if the countered upper body worked better, I'm sure they would use it. The Carving cup technique used on a GS race course might end up with a decapitation.

http://www.carvingcup.com/ATLETI/foto_bondone3.html

[b0ardski]

Good point Bob, screw the gates,

just carve:biggthump

[stevo]

Bordy rippin......

[b0ardski]

[Jack M]

Those GS skiing sequences show the exact angulation we should strive for when we need to squeeze every last ounce of edge hold out of a board.

[Fastskiguy]

man, a guy is gone for a week and this great thread gets long! Gotta couple of comments and a question....

1. The Lindsey Vonn video shows some great skiing but I have to chuckle whenever I hear about harold harb. Every single turn started with the new outside ski! His phantom move is so phantom she's not even doing it and you can't say it's because she's not good enough. It's a good idea in concept and striving for the parallel boot shafts and "two tracking" makes for good skiing...but at the limit, skiing is an outside foot dominated activity.

2. Most of those "extreme ski carving" videos show some awful technique with the outside ski flapping around and the inside knee flexed and weighted.....just waiting for the acl to snap.

3. No skier ever achieves 50/50 weight distribution. Carving the inside ski is a huge part of high end skiing but there is always more weight on the outside ski. This is not a bad thing.

4. Snowboard riders can utilize more extension and retraction and higher inclination angles than skiers as beautifully demonstrated by the pictures of Bordy. His hip is on the snow, the best skiers can get within a few inches sometimes but even your typical alpine snowboard (non-racing) enthusiast can get the hip on the snow.

4 (continued). This extension and retraction allows snowboards to get more pressure higher in the turn, reducing the pressure later in the turn. For the last few years we've been talking about getting more done earlier in the turn in high-end skiing but with a snowboard you can really go nuts at the top of the turn vs. on skis.

My question is....maybe a comment...buy why are ski racers faster? If snowboarders can get a higher edge angle and can flex and extend more then shouldn't they go faster? And I'm sure you can carve a tighter turn on steep terrain on a board vs. on skis....but it requires (at least) "decent" snow so maybe on really hard rutted race courses it's different?

[b0ardski]

I've always assumed it's because two edges in the snow create less friction than one, and provide a wider base to adjust the path of the center of mass.

[BobD]

man, a guy is gone for a week and this great thread gets long! Gotta couple of comments and a question....

1. The Lindsey Vonn video shows some great skiing but I have to chuckle whenever I hear about harold harb. Every single turn started with the new outside ski! His phantom move is so phantom she's not even doing it and you can't say it's because she's not good enough. It's a good idea in concept and striving for the parallel boot shafts and "two tracking" makes for good skiing...but at the limit, skiing is an outside foot dominated activity.

My question is....maybe a comment...buy why are ski racers faster? If snowboarders can get a higher edge angle and can flex and extend more then shouldn't they go faster? And I'm sure you can carve a tighter turn on steep terrain on a board vs. on skis....but it requires (at least) "decent" snow so maybe on really hard rutted race courses it's different?

1 That's what I see a lot of the time in racing videos and in that "world cup racers free skiing" video on youtube. This article explains the reason (at least for me), and describes the feeling I get when completing turns, and into the transition.

http://www.yourskicoach.com/YourSkiCoach/Inside_Leg_Extension.html

We just had our Carving Cup style race this morning at BucKhill. The conditions were great, and speedzilla did a great job of course setting. Unlike the real Carving Cup, this race is for boards and skis (though in separate divisions). The times between the two were closer than ever this year. I think it might be possible to design a course that would be allow skis and boards to compete. The skis have a real advantage at the start, in being able to get a few skating stroke in, but a really steep start would negate that advantage.

BobD

[Fastskiguy]

1 That's what I see a lot of the time in racing videos and in that "world cup racers free skiing" video on youtube. This article explains the reason (at least for me), and describes the feeling I get when completing turns, and into the transition.

http://www.yourskicoach.com/YourSkiCoach/Inside_Leg_Extension.html

We just had our Carving Cup style race this morning at BucKhill.

I wonder if it would be even better if they relaxed (or flexed) the old outside leg instead of pushing down with the old inside leg? More of a cross thru, a little less "up" at the transition. Still, it's some fine looking free skiing and it sure looks like they are pushing down with the old inside ski...

and I loved the article about steering....high level steering is gone but it's a big deal if you're going to ski the whole mountain

http://www.yourskicoach.com/YourSkiCoach/A_Revival_of_the_Steered_Turn.html

So what is up with the carving cup? That sounds super duper fantastic! Can you compete in both classes? I'm thinking if the course was designed right maybe the snowboards could win.....