Please dont yell at me.

[Erik J]

did skier get hurt every time they fell before there were releasable bindings? same thing.

yeah, no one advises to fall with 1 foot out but in most situations nothing happens even though it's high risk.

That reasoning makes sense, although skis would have less of a tendency to twist my lower leg off. I've released a couple of times myself.

I'm looking for a pro's perspective.

[bobdea]

With skies i dont issue is relevant due both bindings have indenpendt relase mechnism

right, this is what I was saying is 60 years ago that was not the case.

[Bordy]

Most of the times I have realesed for what ever reason, Binding failure, Boot Falure or board failure I have gone into a low side slide and gently applied pressure to the attached foot as well as placed my now free foot on the deck, and used the board to help slow down, I have had gear fail at super G speeds well over 50 mph and been just fine.

Ok I think it only fare to set some stuff straight, many alpine snowboards are just plane stupid, If you do ride as I am about to explain your a Moron, I really don't care if what I am saying offends you one bit, cuz if you get offended maybe you will think and change your riding style, If you do ride as such and you have ever ridden with me then you have heard this lecture, For many of the people I know that ride as such It has taken a injury or near death experance to open there eyes here it comes its super amazing info I am even going to yell it out....

IF YOU ARE TURNING ABOVE PEOPLE , OBJECTS OR NON MOVABLE ITEMS

YOUR A MORON, SMART RIDERS TURN BELOW STUFF.....

ok there it is. I love the "what if my binding breaks and I go into the woods" statement.. If you set your self up so thats were you are going to end up then its your fault, you will never see a pro make a arc six inches away from the tree line, even if "the snow is better there" your riding a alpine board it should hold on any surface.... It is way more likley that you will lose your edge and smack into something then something wil break and you lose your line..

That said I think its important that you as a alpine rider turn under stuff not above it, I hate going to SES and watching some folks apex right above stuff? My busness partner Dave used to be the bigest dumbasss doing just this, It took years of me heckling him and then a broken tib, fib and femur in seperate legs for him to change his habits.

Now with this in mind if your gear fails and you lose a foot, I think placeing the now realesed foot back on the board is your safest move, you don't want to allow independant leg movent. Where you place your foot is up to you, I have seen rider just slam there ankles together and keep their lower body together or place it back where it should be or between the bindings to re I know that some one is going to say,"but Billy what if I am tumbiling arse over tea kettle when my foot comes out". I have had it happen using a catek binding that I ripped the threads right off the screws and some out of the board, luckly the binding stayed on my foot and I just stomped it right back. the board ended up ruined and covered with "claw" marks from me using the screws to get some grip on the top sheet, but I even had a good enough platform to stop tumbling and even stand up n ride out before stopping.

Most of the time I have had a foot come free it has just lead into a low side slide and since I know not to turn where a blow out means impact you slide to a stop or have enough control edge to a stop again this part is your resposability, you know riding in control, it that code thingy and everything.

As a kid we all thought we would die if we lost a foot, after doing so you feel alot differant, I am not saying you wont get hurt that can happen with out a foot coming out in any fall, I broke my back(for the second time) at nationals when the nose broke on my kessler so thing can go bad..

I am saying that if you think your gear won't break your wrong, no matter who makes it just becuase one part is strong something else will give instead.

Of course as always this is just based on my opinions. I think we shall do a poll...

[Dave ESPI]

I completley agree with Boardy.

I get low and try to scrub off speed in a snowplow, or just keep my body prone, or on my back and slide with the board barely making contact with the ground untill I can use it as a bit of a slowing anchor/brake or shovel. If sliding down hill and the board is more downhill than you with only 1 foot in it tends to bite and then hook you around and I find this causes a twist to your body that your knee and leg really REALLY do not like, so I try to slide on my ass or other leg folded under myself to create a stable platform to lay down parallel to the board and attenpt to just keep my self low and controlled and yet also relaxed. Tense muscles cause a lot more damages than if you are just sliding along for the durration untill U an regain control. Hopefully everyone has a good grippy stomp pad, and when the back foot pops out, they can jam their boot right to that and it stays where its put and can assist in a "falling leaf" sort of slowing to the butt/back slide.

Not gracefull, but it works.

[NateW]

What other bindings did you ride last year? Prove to me that you have first hand experance to be so bold online, this is a common topic between us.......

So, for the third time, what other bindings do you think are more reliable than Trench Diggers?

Prove to me that you're not just stirring **** up for the fun of it. :)

[philw]

YOUR A MORON, SMART RIDERS TURN BELOW STUFF.....

Good advice, and I don't care how blunt you want to be about it.

In the same spirit I hope you won't mind me pointing out that if you're going to tell people they're stupid, it probably works better if your text actually makes sense. "Your" may sound a little like "you're" but is meaningless as you've used it.

The one exception to your rule is off piste, where in general you want to stop above your group, as you probably don't know what's below. In this case you just need to come in gently.

[Bordy]

So, for the third time, what other bindings do you think are more reliable than Trench Diggers?

Prove to me that you're not just stirring **** up for the fun of it. :)

Nate,

the point of my comments is to prove there are other factors in binding selection then only the reliablity of the binding, you have made it very clear, repeativly that you choose TD becuase you beleve they are the strongest safest binding out there, and that you primary concern is strength.

In this post and several post you always turn to this info and may comment several times in one thread that you ride TD cuz they are the strongest binding out there.

I am not sure how or why you consider anything in this thread "stiring sheet up for the fun of it" I understand you love your TDs I sell them at my shop and last year I was used as a smiling face in the Bomber adds, I have known Fin and Michelle since bomber started when Fin had a partner (not that theirs anything wroung with that;)) We stay at each others homes, we know each other very well, and are great friends. And often see your personal post pimping the TD as hard as you can, I am really stoked you love your TDs and what they do for you.

They just don't do it for me the same way, First Intecs and I do not get along, I have ripped the heel of my boots broken internals and pins as well as fractured the heel, plus the boot flexes in ways I just dont enjoy with them. Of course i don't mind if stuff break I know its going to all me stuff breaks, and it breaks often, Including the gear I choose to ride.

The TD line is much to stiff for me and the current gear I ride, at one point I traveled from event to event with only TDs in my bag so did lots of athletes, But as the bindings got stronger boards just did not keep up and soon I had lots of broken boards instead of broken binding pieces one year I broke 6 800 dollar custom race boards using td1, I have broken multiple boards using td2 also, including customs and lots of production prodect, is this the fault of the board or the binding? Fin and I have always thought boards and inserts need to be stronger no manufactor ever thought we would be straping millet aluminum binders on their gear they never saw it coming.

Now we have stronger inserts since real alpine manufactors know TDs may get screwed on their boards, this is becuase of Fins hard work and feed back. But Tds are still all metal but now suspended to allow for some flex, I think it is obvious from watching the evelotion of the binding that more flex and suspension was needed and Fin has been working hard through the generations to provide this very nessasry charictristic to the binding, all the way up to the Sidewinders. Now that Metal boards are mainstream this is more important then ever before. And again with this new board constrution their is again massive torgue created on the board from a all metal binding that requires still more suspension, and again there are board failures.

Now I am going to play Fins roll a litlle becuase he feels the boot should be the suspension system and has devoloped the BTS to create even more suspension into it, This is a great way to negate the non flexing traight of the TD and allow the rider to absorb but the board binding interface is still firm and many riders would like a different feel at this part of the system. But by making the boot do more work on a non flexing platform you are also placing the boot under more stress and this leads to boot issues also.

That said has Fin done a wonderful job of developing a very durable binding and boot system that everyone should try and decide if they like. I love riding TD with some setups, mostly really stiff board that need to be powered, and when I mean stiff boards I am not talking a Renn tiger compared to a Burton, I mean world cup rce boards that do not bend unless you are a stud and have game. I also like tds on super buffed cord that is grippy. I love the sidewinders also, but they are not a production binding. I am just not a TD only guy, and thats Ok. I still ride TDs sometimes.

So with all that said heres the answer I give you.

Are TD stronger then other bindings, yes.

In my experance however as I strengthen the binding part of the system I have a higher falure rate of the other parts IE boots and boards, so the bindings become more reliable but the entire system is not. I need a complete system.

This fact combined with the physical limits of movement for and aft, as well as the lack of suspension needed to ride at my full potential is why I often ride other binding, and reccomend others try to as well, I of course reccomend TDs to everyone also cuz it's my buddies company and he has been busting his ass in the alpine community as long as I have and I love him for it. I even go as far to say he makes the best metal binding out there hands down.

But just as I don't say Burton Bindings are the answer and thats what everyone should be ridding, I don't do the same with TD.

You also have never heard me say this board is the only one, or this boot is the only one... Just not fair to the person asking questions on the forum.

We have both seen the ....Madd is the best board attitude, or the Colier is the best board, and the members of the forum by it hook line and sinker. I am just not that guy.. All the members of the industry know me and where I am coming from.

Again just one guys opinion

[Bordy]

Good advice, and I don't care how blunt you want to be about it.

In the same spirit I hope you won't mind me pointing out that if you're going to tell people they're stupid, it probably works better if your text actually makes sense. "Your" may sound a little like "you're" but is meaningless as you've used it.

The one exception to your rule is off piste, where in general you want to stop above your group, as you probably don't know what's below. In this case you just need to come in gently.

It can't be that meaningless It just a typo Phil I make a binch of them? You got the point.

We are talking about powered turns on piste here,

and if you really want to nit pick about stoping you should never stop above anyone on or off piste this is instuctor level one stuff, if you fail to stop quess who your taking out? everyone below you....and off piste its a even bigger no no what if you cuase a fracture now you just cuased a slide that took out your buddys this has been the standard I have been taught as a mountaineer since day one and has been reinforced ever since. If you don't know whats below you and you choose to come in to hot then again... you are stupid and out of control. again not you persaonlly Phil but the rider who does so...

[Jack M]

I disagree, The base plate of burtons are pre bent to help eleminate the flatspot and flex a little with the board, also the burton bails are much softer and provide a bit of flex. I would just call it a stiffend burton with less chance of bail failure.

Jack Why you always hating on any binding that doesn't say Bomber, I like Bombers also but don't discount everything else? I could say what you have there is a TD1 thats not going to rip out your inserts and wreak your stick, IE lever on a fulcram..

What other bindings did you ride last year? Prove to me that you have first hand experance to be so bold online, this is a common topic between us.......

I still love ya but have to ask.

No hate man. Show me one post where I've dismissed F2 or Phiokka or any racer's binding but Burton out of hand. I don't, because I've never ridden anything but Burton and Bomber. I get the feeling sometimes that you attribute common vibes on this forum to me.

I just know that for freecarving I don't like flexible bindings. And I'm talking about the feel, not the safety. I like my board to do what I say, when I say. I know this because I did go back and try Burtons again after several years on Bombers. It was downright scary. I felt like I had rubber bands holding me to the board. Also, last time I tried the soft Bomber e-rings, I didn't like them either.

Bindings that are as flexible as Burtons, IMO, are like play in a steering column. That's not where I want my suspension.

If I were dealing with race ruts on a regular basis, maybe I'd feel differently. I know they are unlike anything we normally encounter while freecarving from the beer-league races I did a few years ago.

Unless they've changed since becoming Ibex, Burton Race Plates were most definitely flat out of the box.

[Jack M]

I completley agree with Boardy.

Dave, why do you keep misspelling Bordy's name when it is right here in front of you, all over this forum? I see you do this a lot and I keep quiet about it, but enough is enough. Why do you do this? It's disrespectful.

[Bordy]

No hate man. Show me one post where I've dismissed F2 or Phiokka or any racer's binding but Burton out of hand. I don't, because I've never ridden anything but Burton and Bomber. I get the feeling sometimes that you attribute common vibes on this forum to me.

I just know that for freecarving I don't like flexible bindings. And I'm talking about the feel, not the safety. I like my board to do what I say, when I say. I know this because I did go back and try Burtons again after several years on Bombers. It was downright scary. I felt like I had rubber bands holding me to the board. Also, last time I tried the soft Bomber e-rings, I didn't like them either.

Flexible bindings, IMO, are like play in a steering column. That's not where I want my suspension.

If I were dealing with race ruts on a regular basis, maybe I'd feel differently. I know they are unlike anything we normally encounter while freecarving from the beer-league races I did a few years ago.

Unless they've changed since becoming Ibex, Burton Race Plates were most definitely flat out of the box.

Pre bent was a poor choice of words you are right they are flat, but the plate is suspended and flexes under foot with the board.

My statement about you ridding differnet stuff is the same as always. We discuss things on the forum from persaonl experance, often your statements are very direct, I know you are differnt in person, and if given the chance will try stuff then pass judgment, but online its very comon for you to make statements that are well a little onesided, in a conversation that has varibles. Be it Boards and what the are used for, and or boots and binders.

As I said I love the Bomber prodect, but its not for me all the time, I have tried lots of other gear and my opinion and post are based on that.

Often I read your post as bellitling toward the other gear mentioned, and I know you have not tried it. Have you ridden the highbrid binding pictured, I had not so I did not comment....) Its all great fun alpine gear and unless there is a true saftey issue it may work great for someone and should be addressed as such.

There was a time you pitched how unless you where racing why should you ride a race board, and that racer didn't free carve or finish there turns etc...now go look at yout Kessler...Are you a racer now? are you going to finish turns on it its really good at it! Now you want to do a comparasion about other boards which is awsome but you are part of the reason the board needs to be brought up to speed adter discounting the same ideas youare no promoting?! But there where lots of threads in the past where other riders myself include had already done said comparsions and shared the info and it was discounted by you then cuz we were racer or coaches not free riders.

The bindings pictured are one riders idea, and you discounted them also. If they where super unsafe then it would make sence to belittle them and share your info, But since you do have a document history of bashing burton bindings I threw up the post to show their is a flip side to the coin also, neither is right or wrong.

I always enjoy your post Jack, and have tryed very hard to let you be but some time I just don't agree, I am not saying I am correct and you are not, just that we are both totally differnt riders who have a differnt background and we post as such.

Its great you love your TD also but it doens't hurt to think others may not have your ridding style, or needs.... thats all I can recall having the same discussion about other bindings as far back as 03ish. You have a resposability to promote a prodect, so I always try to promote the sport.

Again not trying to create tension just letting you know what I am thinking while posting, out of respect for you..

[Dave ESPI]

Dave, why do you keep misspelling Bordy's name when it is right here in front of you, all over this forum? I see you do this a lot and I keep quiet about it, but enough is enough. Why do you do this? It's disrespectful.

I assumed it was a typo when Bordy originaly entered his screenname to register on BOL as a different way of spelling it and had ment it to say BOARDY.

J/K Just busting on Bill for his comment earlier in this thread about typos.

Actualy Jack, I honestly never noticed I was doing that until you just now pointed it out. Sorry, is "Bordy" Bills' real last name? no disrespect intended. Kind of ironic he is on a snowboard forum with the name of "Bordy" I guess.

I promise I will write "BORDY" ten times in the snow so I remember in the future

[Jack M]

Yes Dave, it is his last name, not that that matters.

[Dave ESPI]

No worries Jack, and again no diss intended, and it does matter as in said situation it could look as it did. Honest mistake.

A lot of people think Espi is my lastname, but it is not. People call me it. I don't mind. They spell it wrong all the time too as Espy or Espie.

Its a nick-name and also the name of my design company. I have a friend named Chris Kiledeer, he is on a fish and game forum, and people call him killdeer all the time as it doesn't register in their minds-eye as a different spelling either.

cheers,

D.

[Corey]

You've got nothing, try having a last name like 'Dyck'. It's pronounced dick. Like dickhead.

[Jack M]

It's all good Bordy, debating this stuff is fun. I try to keep my posts succinct and to the point. Sometimes I guess that makes them sound direct or terse or belittling maybe, that's not my intent. Again, you seem to attribute this BOL idea that freecarvers <i>shouldn't</i> ride the same gear as racers to me. That's just not accurate. I have said that there is gear that is good for freecarving that would never be found in a race course. And that just because some gear is bad for racing does not necessarily mean it is bad for freecarving. Big difference there.

I don't know if you've read my How to Buy an Alpine Snowboard article here, but in my description of the different kinds of boards out there I say:

<i>"Race boards are replicas of the boards used by professional racers, designed for ultimate speed and edge hold. But that doesn't mean you have to be a racer to use them. These are the boards you aspire to mastering as you realize your own carving potential."</i> (snip)

I have always stood by those words.

I try to speak from personal experience, but it is also perfectly acceptable to extrapolate and argue based on theory. I do have an education in this type of stuff (M.E.), it's not like I just pull it out of my butt.

I haven't ridden my Kessler yet, but if it's anything like the Coiler NSR I tried last year I'm sure it will be awesome for big speed, big turn freecarving. When one's freecarving goals intersect with that of racing, the equipment should be the same, I have always believed that. That's not always the case though. I don't ride softer bindings because dealing with ruts is not one of my freecarving goals. I also simply don't like them for carving. They don't work as well for my style. I ride shorter, radial (gasp!) boards when I want to make C-shaped carves down icy, narrow, make-the-turn-or-die steeps. I ride GS boards when I want to go big and fast and when conditions allow it. In my upcoming review, I want to find out how the latest and greatest GS race equipment performs for those goals. Want to loan me a Vist and a set of F2s? I also hope to include some video to give a point of reference to how I am using the boards.

Thank you again for hanging out here and giving us a window into the world of racing. Typos and all!

[tahoetrencher]

Hey Dave, make sure it is your own handwriting this time...

;)

[buster]

is there some impersonating bordy?

i don't recognize his posts any more.

[MJB]

hmmm, wwrsd? what would Rob Stevens do? he would probably take the bindings off, then there is no risk of them breaking bails then.

ps, Rob, still have those Koflachs at my house. if you are heading in, drop me a line (# is on my facebook)

[Buell]

Show me one post where I've dismissed F2 or Phiokka or any racer's binding but Burton out of hand. I don't, because I've never ridden anything but Burton and Bomber.

Here are three that come pretty close. ;)

All specifically about F2s from this thread about riding F2s on a new Coiler.

that's like putting all-seasons on a Ferrari. ;)

ah yes, for a student budget you're doing very well! Enjoy.

With all due respect, I want to ask how you are supposed to make precision moves and maintain balance with your foot wobbling side to side?

[tahoetrencher]

:lol:

[Bordy]

Here are three that come pretty close. ;)

All specifically about F2s from this thread about riding F2s on a new Coiler.

Good thing I didn't see this post of I would have been all over Jack then also.

The "I havent ridden them but I think I woun't like them" post is the core of me responding the way I do some times to Jack.

Heck I even got a cameo in the thread. Go figure. Buell and Rebecca were very experamental and had cahonas to try metal boards the first year they were out. From what I have heard they both still enjoy the metal ride and it helped their ridding...

[Jack M]

Close but no cigar, Buell.

[Bordy]

Billy:

Are you becoming a keyboard carver? Play more with that kid of yours wiil ya!

Now, do you have solid engineering or statistical data to back up the above question/answer? The YES part I do not understand. How do you define stronger or strength?

I will posit that every credible binding manufacturer have a load to failure data on their bindings. Given the reported failures, one would assume that most of these failures occur below the stipulated failure load. Did I say stipulated? yet no one has seen the numbers though. However, the strength of bindings is pontificated on this forum by a few anointed souls.

I think someone may need to lock this thread before pictures of broken bindings start showing up and riders start demanding failure load data.

Bola

http://www.allboardssports.com

Come on Bola some times you just gotta give the poster what they want.....

We both know this is what Nate wanted to hear, I bet he is the one, I like my TDs just they way they are vote on my poll, or it might be Jack... Jack was it you?

I think you are shaming F2s a bit in that thread... Don't make me post a poll, I have been alittle poll crazy you know...From now on I just leave it up to the people!!!!! Power to the poster!:lol:

[Buell]

Close but no cigar, Buell.

I am pretty sure that I remember, but can you remind us of what your first post originally said? It was softened quite a bit after a few of us defended the F2s and the fact that the OP was really excited about his new board and should not have someone slamming his binding choice.