Accessibility of Carving

[BulletProof]

Little question, how many BX riders use hardboots?

I had a couple friends back in the early 90's riding alpine gear for boardercross races.

They were racing for fun, but always ending up in the top finishers, were comfortable doing moguls, glades and the parks with their alpine gear!

One had an oxygen board, the other?

Simply put, it's possible to do more than groomers when you're quick and agile, I could barely follow them though, apart from a day where Jay got 4 feet of powder to ease my landings.

stores near Montreal:

Sharks

Performance Boardshop

[Keenan]

The problem with rental shops carrying alpine gear all boils down to the boots. It would be easy enough for a shop to have a midsize board and bindings but they would also have to carry a dozen pairs of boots, that's where the expense comes to play. Whenever I have seen an on snow demo tent with alpine boards, you have to have your own boots.

I have never been to SES or ECES, does a boot manufacturer ever provide product?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Great thread. I'm wondering, is alpine gear more readily available in Europe, Canada or Japan (where the sport is more popular)?

"More popular" is pretty relative. I guess there's quite a few hard-booters in Quebec, but in Alberta where I typically ride I'm usually the only one on the hill.

People are forgetting that hard boot equipment used to be available in shops everywhere. It gathered dust, typically. I doubt we'll ever see that again.

As far as hardboots for general-purpose riding - well, that's what I do but I'm unusual even on this group. We've had recent threads about Jackson Hole and other western resorts where many people feel that soft boots are the better tool. So if even dedicated hard-booters bust out the softies for all-mountain riding, how will soft-booters be convinced?

OTOH I may be wrong. Skiing is experiencing an equipment-driven renaissance, it may be that all the new tech drives hard-booting into the limelight. But I doubt it.

[scrapster]

How many folks get that much powder though? Jackson Hole is pretty unique. And still, HB's work pretty on Tankers and the like.

I'd be happy if we could get at least one or two shops in most major winter sports regions to carry alpine gear. And I think we're getting closer to that. I wouldn't mind being put in the same class as tele-skiers. We may be small, but we're hard core

[Helmut Karvlow]

If it was cheap and easy, everyone would do it...........my ski set up back in the 80's was more then my 1st snowboard set up.

[Bordy]

I'm with you here. Now that I've finally gotten a new board this year; I'm planning to keep the complete old set (Raichle 111s, O2 Fritsche bindings, and the F67) around to try and hook some friends. Then I'll get some shots of me carving on that set-up and post them with pics of the board on Kijiji here in Edmonton. I'll try and sell it and a half-day of riding tips (at a local hill) for $175-200. I'm hoping that way I can sell the board to a carve-interested freerider rather than another HB'r in Edmonton.

This has brought to mind an interesting poll question

I think this is part of the issue, In a earlier post you comment that a begginer set up would be great if it cost 300 or so but it may cost the rider 175-200 to go out for a day with a bro bra lesson?

Begginer alpine riders can make do with older used gear no problem, but when we as a industry try to great a usable board, binding and boot set up for begginers we are looking at over 550 just in building cost for the three prodects. So it is almost unheard of to market such a pakage, most of us try and keep used gear around for just such a customer.

Also if you try and compare begginer ski gear and the cost of a newbie set up it is just not fair, If Rossi sells skiis to begginers at a loss, (which does happen) they know they will make up for it by selling high end gear latter on.

But even this does not happen becuase of the RENTAL system skii builders know you can go rent gear at almost any hill in the world, the count on the shop to spend 500 for gear and rent it to people at 30-50 bones a day. Gear that in no way shape or form has any chance of proforming at a level the skkier will need when they devolop some skill, some thing a alpine rider will for sure do while trying to carve, some thing that is the goal of every high end skiier. Some using 3000 dollars worth of gear to do.

Then there are Demos some thing Bomber and Hardbooter have tried push to all riders, but to be honest almost the only riders that come to demos are skiiled alpine riders already looking to try before they buy, We send out maybe 10 setups a year to just begginers but 10 setups in ten minutes at SES, WTC, etc....

Doneks Pilot board are the best new board deal out there, and becuase there are limited number of boots to be had it get hard to even consider a begginer boot..... and well when it comes to bindings a softer set up is easier to learn with but you can make do screwing your boots to the board as a begginer so most buy what ever the folks on BOL tell them to.

It would be great if I could sell begginer packages, I just wish anyone would call for one............

if you call hardbooter we will send anyone demo gear, we always have. u pay shipping and a rate based on how long you want it.....we have always affered this service

[jp1]

Bordy, I hear what you are saying! As a beginner/intermediate (softbooter) I didn't feel I was good enough to Demo at my local hill. One day, one of my friends talked me into trying out a Demo board and I was astonished!

I immediately felt a difference, and had that ear to ear grin as I transitioned smoothly from turn to turn, and could even ride it 'flat' if I wanted to! I told the guy at the Burton Demo Tent, "Keep my board, keep my license, I'm not giving this board back"!

He looked at my board and said it is a 'higher end' board than what he had put me on and 'should' be an excellent ride! Then he checked the base and laughed. It was so base high, I couldn't ride it flat (but I did learn to turn on it). He recommended that I take it back to where purchased and tell them it was defective and have company look at it & replace it !

While I have NEVER been one to blame my equipment, I discovered I was trying to learn a new sport on a board that was 'sub par'.

Getting off of that board was the most progress I have ever made!!

So, I guess the moral to this story is that beginners be less hesitant to try Demo's when they have the opportunity.

[dshack]

IMHO, our biggest need at the moment is an entry-priced boot. Boards ad bindings can be found incredibly cheap if you're not picky, and riding hardboots on a normal snowboard can be a revelation for people. Finding a pair of boots under $300, though? That's the tough part, especially because there's less reusability and interchangeability between them.

Once you've been through a few pairs, you get that they're worth the investment, but as a beginner, it just feels silly dropping more on the shoes than the board and bindings combined.

[jp1]

dshack, I hear you, but I honestly think it is all about commitment. Like anything else in life, you have to 'want to do it' to make the investment of money or time.

I firmly believe in skiing or boarding that the boots are the most important investment you will make. I've been fortunate with my choices, but have ridden with others that were not.

Unhappy :( feet (been there in other sports) is one place I do not want to go!

[b0ardski]

I've been using "hard" boots off piste for 20yrs. The precision & edge control

I discovered mountaineering in the '80s prompted me to give up on laces & straps shortly after stuffing sorels with skiboot liners.

The argument that new soft gear is vastly improved is irrelevant (I've tried it), polished up, reinforced crap is still crap. If all you want is flatland tricks and tweakability then go with laces, if you want all mountain performance then plastic shells rule.

I enjoy riding chewed up refrozen bump runs under the lift just to prove the inferiority of the accepted norm & watch accomplished softbooters struggle & traverse out to save their ankles. On that same note I love to lay down trenches switch & carve right off the side of the run into the powder trees at speed proving that step-in plastic boots aren't limited to stiff square tailed race/carve boards.

Back on track, product availability & promotion (or the lack thereof) is the primary limiting factor to increasing the popularity of Alpine. Anyone here concerned about this needs to get rid of their designed obsolescence laceups on powder days and be seen tearing up the off piste with forgiving flex plastic boots.

Boots are THE primary piece of gear. I've always told this to everyone be it ski, tele or board.

[philw]

Whilst I personally do all my heli and cat riding in hard gear, not everyone does.

Whilst I think they're missing a trick, it is a different feel, and I don't think it's necessary to stamp that out in order to get piste people riding gear appropriate to the piste. Most people, most of the time, ride the piste at resorts. Not heli/cat accessed powder or the park.

So that's where the battle should be in my view : piste riding.

I think the marketing guys are using park/pipe to market floppy gear to piste riders. That ships a lot of fashion boards, but ultimately it'll damage boarding because no one really wants to be burnt off by skiers all the time, or to be restricted to the blue runs (I kid you not: these guys can't ride bumps!).

Still, the wheel turns, aerial ballet isn't going to last forever. Maybe some decent Olympic races will help.

Personally I don't proselytize openly as I think it's a turn-off. Either they're ready to put the effort in, or they'll end up in ski school... Maybe.

[BlueB]

Equipment is priced a little to high for what it is. Sure a hand made board from coiler or virus can be pretty expensive, but donek and prior, volkl and nidecker should be trying to manufacture decks for cheaper.

Yes, equipment is overpriced, especially the boots. All those molds have been paid off long ago (they didn't change for a decade). Material that goes into it is very little, so a pair could be sold for about 150. So many begginer ski boots sell at that price. Same material and labour goes into them as into the hi-end model. Well, maybe one or 2 buckles less...

Boards, same deal, but a lot more of manual labour. Considering the small volume that builders do, you can not blame them for wanting to make living... And you are not quite right about Coiler vs. others statement. Boardbuilding is mostly handmade process. Major difference is that Coiler shapes the cores by hand, while majority is doing CNC.

Same with boots. $500 is alot to someone "thinking" about getting into carving. I agree with other guys, exposure is a large part of the problem. maybe a good place to start would be rental shops on the mountains. convince them to carry some alpine setups. then people could give carving boards a go before they pull the trigger on 2000 dollars worth of gear (or whatever). but the other half is to have instructors on the hill riding hardboots!

Very hard things to do...

For a year I instructed on hard boots. To the best of my knowlege, there was only great feedback yo my teaching and 0 complaints about different gear. Then, I got forbidden to do so, unless there's a specific request from a client. It had to do with snow school being totally brain-washed, and behind the scenes games related to pecking order.

Also, 2 years ago I managed to source large quantity of Raichle/Deluxe boots at about 15% of the reatil value (yes 85% cheaper!) and offered them the snow school/rental shop. They were not even interested to listen to the story! Hello? It was a deal bordering a gift, something that I could have pulled of out my own pocket, opportunity to grow the activities into a new field, yet 0 interest... :(

[BulletProof]

hehe,

Now guess why I'm looking for a used pair of stiff boots. I'm still running with a first or second generation (re-labelled AT boot) Raichle 'snowboarding' boot, got them off a shelf many years ago collecting dust for 150$ CAD.

Big problem is that they're too soft to really crank, but, they're amazing for bumpy runs when using a 'stiff' freeride or all mountain board.

[Dave ESPI]

Having been a "poor kid" who had to scrape money together to get mediocre gear and mismatched equipment when I first started, to decide if I even liked snowboarding is nothing different than any sort of hobby.

Some people can go out and drop a grand on boots, board, bindings, jacket, pants, and goggles, lift ticket, and go ride twice and then never use the gear again.

Those are the people I get my gear from. No different than Flying RC helicopters, or racing bouys on a jetski. You can get really good quality gear at a fair price to get into the sport if you take the time and patience to find the deals. 4 seasons ago I was introduced to hardbooters who were out free riding. Not on a race course. In the minds of most people, they see the carvers and hardboots as a "race or Olympic gear" thing. It was not until I saw Ronnie, and Rob, and "The carvefather" and a few others out just ripping around having fun and the control they had that I decided to look deeper into it.

Media and more exposure is what is lacking. Snowboarding right now is in the "grunge rock" phase much as music was in the 1990s.

Carving is problematic with its opponents who say we are agressive riders and a danger and the "they are tearing up the slopes and making rutts!" comments, but when you take it all into perspective, its indeed hitting a "prime" stage that is now being set with more of us out there on a daily basis rawking the HBZ and schooling on the rebel youths who think "jibbing" is the best, but there are a lot of twentysometings who have many years riding and are bored with the played out routines of parks and rails and jumps, and are looking for the next big thing.

At somepoint, people decide to go "ALL IN" and get the good gear.

I borrowed gear and tried it out, and was hooked immediately. It prompted me to go get a new good pair of HEAD boots and I had a beater board and some inexpensive bindings. When the bindings failed, I knew I had to go for the quality stuff and never looked back.

Small steps prevent that initial "sticker shock", but that being said " Doing it right from the start is more economical in the long run".

[MUD]

I think this is it........

I really think we have hit market saturation. The builders build all the boards we need, more in fact. The used market is flourishing but not astronomical, the prices are a little low if you ask me. We don't sell all the boots that the manufactures make in a year.....

I think if there was money to be made in the alpine market one of the big companies would be trying to do it.

I just can't buy the "they are biased" thing.

Flame suit on............

[Ear dragger]

I agree it would be hard for a rental shop to stock 12 different boot sizes, especially if they don't get used enough. this may sound bad or stupid for giving alpine a first try, but I first started carving in ski boots way back! they are not great for it by any means but at least it's a way to get on alpine.

I also think skiiers are the target group. It takes skill to ride alpine well. a skiier has the basic body position already from their own skills. maybe we are just barking up the wrong tree :(. It would be nice for the boot prices to go down, then I could get brand new upz's to replace mine:cool:!!

[bigdyno]

You're assuming that we all want to or other people who come across to hardboots will want to run gates.quote]

Not at all, I am hoping the exposure the equipment will get will have people asking about it. Although I do think that most people will associate hardboots with gates only, we can always hope that it gets people talking and interested enough to see there is more to alpine than just racing.

[Puddy Tat]

I think this is part of the issue, In a earlier post you comment that a begginer set up would be great if it cost 300 or so but it may cost the rider 175-200 to go out for a day with a bro bra lesson?

Begginer alpine riders can make do with older used gear no problem, but when we as a industry try to great a usable board, binding and boot set up for begginers we are looking at over 550 just in building cost for the three prodects. So it is almost unheard of to market such a pakage, most of us try and keep used gear around for just such a customer.

Also if you try and compare begginer ski gear and the cost of a newbie set up it is just not fair, If Rossi sells skiis to begginers at a loss, (which does happen) they know they will make up for it by selling high end gear latter on.

But even this does not happen becuase of the RENTAL system skii builders know you can go rent gear at almost any hill in the world, the count on the shop to spend 500 for gear and rent it to people at 30-50 bones a day. Gear that in no way shape or form has any chance of proforming at a level the skkier will need when they devolop some skill, some thing a alpine rider will for sure do while trying to carve, some thing that is the goal of every high end skiier. Some using 3000 dollars worth of gear to do.

Then there are Demos some thing Bomber and Hardbooter have tried push to all riders, but to be honest almost the only riders that come to demos are skiiled alpine riders already looking to try before they buy, We send out maybe 10 setups a year to just begginers but 10 setups in ten minutes at SES, WTC, etc....

Doneks Pilot board are the best new board deal out there, and becuase there are limited number of boots to be had it get hard to even consider a begginer boot..... and well when it comes to bindings a softer set up is easier to learn with but you can make do screwing your boots to the board as a begginer so most buy what ever the folks on BOL tell them to.

It would be great if I could sell begginer packages, I just wish anyone would call for one............

if you call hardbooter we will send anyone demo gear, we always have. u pay shipping and a rate based on how long you want it.....we have always affered this service

Actually I was planning to offer all the gear package in the range of $175-200 and throw in the the "bro bra" lesson. The gear is circa '94 after all. The intent being not to sell to another alpinist but to hopefully convert one of the masses. Enough on that that's not the intent of my post.

You address the same problem that the industry experiences. Nobody knows we exist, and when someone does see one of us they generally don't get a chance to talk to us. Hence no lower end userbase no lower end gear.

If we need larger exposure, to create this demand, perhaps it is time for the larger OEMs and distributors to look at putting a display in the major "Ski and Snowboard" shows across North America. Not with the intent of directly selling equipment, but promoting alpine. You'd need a 32" monitor and a laptop, some posters, some video of carving, some current boards, boots, and bindings to let people know this gear is out there and some pamphlets listing the companies involved in the promotion. There are huge numbers of people out there who are interested in carving that group needs to be tapped to promote the growth of this sport and to help the accessibility.

[BigBump]

I think people on this board need to understand that for some people, carving isn't how they have fun on their snowboard. Just like for people here, FS540's over a 30ft table or 270 to frontboard 270 off aren't how they have fun on their snowboard.

Everyone on this board is passionate about carving, and I'm sure it shows in everyone's riding how much they love the sport. But, some people aren't interested in banging turns all day.

I'm a staff trainer at my mountain, and I've seen instructors time and time again learn how to rail on their boards and succeed at it in clinic, only to never do it again and go hit the park after.

Like Dave's comment above(and a few others adove his), about schooling the kids who think jibbing is the best. For them, that is the best thing to do on a snowboard, just like carving is the best thing to do on a snowboard for people on this board.

I'm all for growing the sport and making more approachable, and part of starting that is dropping the elitist attitude. I notice a difference right away with interacting with other carvers when I am on my HB's versus softies. On my HB, they are chatty, we talk about gear and the snow. When I am on my softies, they aren't as chatty and tell me how I should convert...blah blah blah...Get rid of that difference and I think it will help immensely.

[Marco]

I think people on this board need to understand that for some people, carving isn't how they have fun on their snowboard...

...I'm all for growing the sport and making more approachable, and part of starting that is dropping the elitist attitude. I notice a difference right away with interacting with other carvers when I am on my HB's versus softies. On my HB, they are chatty, we talk about gear and the snow. When I am on my softies, they aren't as chatty and tell me how I should convert...blah blah blah...Get rid of that difference and I think it will help immensely.

Yeah, the thing that brought me to snowboarding in the first place was the freedom the sport offers and the friendliness of both soft and hard booters. I have to admit, when I go out with boarders, it's mutually supportive and we're always saying to each other, "Hey, maybe try this," or, "How about doing it that way?" It's the same when we ride our long boards in the summer. I feel that's pretty special.

[Bordy]

Actually I was planning to offer all the gear package in the range of $175-200 and throw in the the "bro bra" lesson. The gear is circa '94 after all. The intent being not to sell to another alpinist but to hopefully convert one of the masses. Enough on that that's not the intent of my post.

You address the same problem that the industry experiences. Nobody knows we exist, and when someone does see one of us they generally don't get a chance to talk to us. Hence no lower end userbase no lower end gear.

If we need larger exposure, to create this demand, perhaps it is time for the larger OEMs and distributors to look at putting a display in the major "Ski and Snowboard" shows across North America. Not with the intent of directly selling equipment, but promoting alpine. You'd need a 32" monitor and a laptop, some posters, some video of carving, some current boards, boots, and bindings to let people know this gear is out there and some pamphlets listing the companies involved in the promotion. There are huge numbers of people out there who are interested in carving that group needs to be tapped to promote the growth of this sport and to help the accessibility.

The problem truley is there is just not enough income in the hardbooting biznes to fund such endevoiurs. I know just about everyone in the alpine industry in north america, none of us is making a real big profit, to help fund such a task. In the early 90's we really tried to make such a push and we saw a return for our efforts, but currently the industry is barely supporting itself, and with the ability to sell direct online distributors are the retailers, in the past most industry show are to push your wears to shops but when you are the shop you know your going to sell your stuff.......so why go to trade shows.

You can do it for cheap with just some videos, but so many people just see nothing by watching some one flop from edge to edge.. When is the last time you saw a ski vid filled with people edging? The people want to see big lines and park n pipe shots, requardless of weather its skiing or snowboarding.

For us in the US our biggest tool is USASA events that give kids a chance to race, If any one thinks they could fund a booth during the nationals then we could have a chance at convincing parents that racing has more to it then just riding hardboots in a course.

I think we could also go old school and create a RV tour with good PR we could share the stoke some were new each week, Placing prodect under feet is the quickest way to convert more current riders looking for the next challange.

I understood your pricing, I was just giving a example of the true cost of riding. I just picked the same number since so many locals I know do under the table alpine stuff..and that would be a cheap lesson compared to resort prices, even with out the gear.

IF you are a traveling resort snowboarder you could spend over 400 bones a day in tickets and lessons to get better, is having to pay $1000 dollars in gear to proform during a week long trip outlandish??? Even when you can us the gear any day after. People don't seem to think so in the skiing world. The alpine snowboard world seems to feel differently. Some times I tune for a shop at the base of Park City, I also spend some times pitching snow board set ups. Some times in one day I would sell 15-20 complete softie set ups. Even all the alpine retailers in the US bareley do that together in a couple busy month. Some months no one sells anything...I am not complaining as a retailer, just speaking what I see going on. If you look at some companys like lets say Catek, Its really just a one man show, and I think Jeff still has another job, Bruce from colier had a second job also until a couple of years back, Fin sells other prodects besides snowboard prodect to stay afloat. Sean and his wife run Donek almost all by themselves, most in the alpine industry love the sport enough that they make large sacrifices to keep the sport going.

Any thing anyone on the BOl board can do to help is just as effective as a few people who are already very busy for the love of the sport, they can only all do so much.

[NateW]

I wonder what would happen if a big-name rider did a short segment on hard boots in a video from Mack Dawg or Matchstick or whoever, and said a few positive words about it. And I don't mean carving, I mean ripping everything on an all-mountain alpine board.

Seems to me that's the kind of publicity that would change kids' attitudes.

I don't expect to ever see it happen, of course. :)

[nekdut]

if you call hardbooter we will send anyone demo gear, we always have. u pay shipping and a rate based on how long you want it.....we have always affered this service

Bordy, that is awesome. I'll have some friends get in touch with Hardbooter to make that happen. They definitely want to try this out.

[jonbass]

I won't contest the equipment is the best, but is the sport? I hope some good Olympic exposure will bring some new people in to the fold, but was it ever more popular? I am asking this as I never used to pay attention to it enough to know a difference between the late 80's lets say, and now.

I think alpine was more accessible and popular back in those days. Or it could have just had more exposure. Snowboarding videos would have sections showing racing and freecarving (I used to live for the Peter Bauer/ Jean Nerva parts) and some competitors were less specialized and would compete in both race and freestyle events. The snowboard community was a lot smaller back then.

[Miltie]

Just some thoughts.....

What if we banded together by location and pooled our extra/loaner gear for those wanting to give alpine a try? Maybe we could get a thread by location in the Ride Boards titled "Need a Demo". People who want to try alpine out could post there and hopefully get hooked.

My experience is that some people who see us laying trenches are interesting in trying alpine but not willing to drop the coin to buy equipment first. We need to be Ambassadors for alpine and let them try it out. Most people that are interested and try it get hooked on the control once they figure it out. If we could offer loaner equipment, casual instruction and be good PR people, then maybe we can attract a few new riders.

For us in the US our biggest tool is USASA events that give kids a chance to race, If any one thinks they could fund a booth during the nationals then we could have a chance at convincing parents that racing has more to it then just riding hardboots in a course.

I think we could also go old school and create a RV tour with good PR we could share the stoke some were new each week, Placing prodect under feet is the quickest way to convert more current riders looking for the next challange.

Bordy is right. We need to attract younger riders. Most of us on this forum are older than 20. We need more King Krimsons and Arclites to keep this going.

Maybe we can also support some of the high school teams with our used equipment. I know there are some high school teams in Northern Cal that have kids who want to race but lack the resources to obtain equipment. Just a thought but might help cultivate some future interest.