A little embarrasing...

[tex1230]

While fully aware of Jay's "flat for all" ideas, I humbly submit that I have creaky 40-year old knees, and if I want to ride anything wider than a 15" stance, I need either cants or a lot of ice and motrin at the end of the day. There is no universal solution for cants, as every person is built differently. And cants should have nothinng to do with riding in a straight line, which was the original point of the thread...

[Jack M]

IMO flat feet is some of the worst advice on the net.

Standing with one foot in front of the other, about 19 inches from toe to toe, angled at about 60 degrees, both feet ramped forward about 5-10 degrees due to built-in boot heel lift, lower legs cocked forward about 15 degrees by built-in boot forward lean is about the most physiologically unnatural snowboarding position I can think of. Using toe lift on the front foot and heel lift on the back foot, and maybe some cant corrects this.

[tex1230]

IMO flat feet is some of the worst advice on the net.

Standing with one foot in front of the other, about 19 inches from toe to toe, angled at about 60 degrees, both feet ramped forward about 5-10 degrees due to built-in boot heel lift, lower legs cocked forward about 15 degrees by built-in boot forward lean is about the most physiologically unnatural snowboarding position I can think of. Using toe lift on the front foot and heel lift on the back foot, and maybe some cant corrects this.

IIRC, he grinds down the internal ramping of the boot as well, making the foot truly flat to the board

[Neil Gendzwill]

Whatever you do with setup, the trick to riding straight on a flat base is to remain neutral. You don't want to provide any inputs to the edges and at the same time you need to be ready to get on either edge in case things go wrong. To me that means staying relaxed and loose. If you've got that down, plus a good wax job, it's fun to go sailing by everyone else on the flats. You really can glide like a mf if you stay neutral.

[terekhov]

When you ride without them, your legs are in somewhat unnatural position

couldn't disagree more. for years your words definitely could come from me - not after i completely abandon binders angles. my ride smoothed and powered - not only by my self-cognition - but by my fellow riders-instructors. i'm convert now.

add: on usual gs board i came from long-time almost Jack Michaud-style little front nose lift-lot heel lift-outward rear cant-52cm-63/60 to flat/49cm-65/60. some tens of days to correct posture - and bingo! i'm mostly bumprider and hardboot forestcross racer)) if that counts

[Bordy]

I thought that I really needed cants, and when I removed them, as per the advice of a very knowledgeable pro coach, it all came together for me.

The difference between posting theories and actually trying something can be huge.

The theories about muscular tension sound really techy, and all, but when a world cup coach suggests something and I find it improved my riding, I am happy with that.

I am a coach, my, athletes compete in world cups, and I think cants are a personal call and unless your body has been messured saying anyone needs or doesn't need cants is just not fair to the athlete, using a process to test and discover the athlete true needs are much more effective.

Balance and twist are the most inportand factors when going straight on a "flatish" base. Practice makes it happen. These ideas are not me quessing or going off what some coach told me, this is what I know from way to much snowboarding through out my life.

To turn this into a cants or no cants thread is just played out and anyone giving advise to lose or use cants online with out knowing the rider, their set up or skill level may just be making the problem worse.

Sharing info about how using cants or not using cants and how it made you ride better or worse is really all the advise you can provide.

"Claiming" the advise is just cuz someone in the industry gave it to you, just doesn't read as well as what you learned using the advise!

No cants make it easier for you to go staight great! Thanks for sharing, No cants make it easier for you to turn and feel powerful, awsome glad to hear your riding well!!!!

Cants make you go fast and straight, awsome! Cants help you turn more powerfully sweet!

Theres no right or wrong, when I look at the bindings of the fastest racers on the planet they are all different. It's not like all the podium folks are going with or with out cants????

[b0ardski]

To turn this into a cants or no cants thread is just played out and anyone giving advise to lose or use cants online with out knowing the rider, their set up or skill level may just be making the problem worse.

Sharing info about how using cants or not using cants and how it made you ride better or worse is really all the advise you can provide.

Theres no right or wrong, when I look at the bindings of the fastest racers on the planet they are all different. It's not like all the podium folks are going with or with out cants????

Thanks for clarifying that Bordy, well put!!

I spent a lot time over the years trying out lift/cant/flat combinations; I was ok with flat/flat on asyms, and used heel lift for a while but found my best comfort and control came (especially on edge catchy cattracks) by settling on 3* inward cant front and back with no lifts. FWIW I'm an old skool "glued together" skier with my front leg shorter than my left and even standing in a duck stance makes my well ab used knees hurt.

That's what works for me and I believe it to be as personal as custom boot fitting.

experiment, experiment, experiment

practice, practice, practice

[maddman]

couldn't disagree more. for years your words definitely could come from me - not after i completely abandon binders angles. my ride smoothed and powered - not only by my self-cognition - but by my fellow riders-instructors. i'm convert now.

add: on usual gs board i came from long-time almost Jack Michaud-style little front nose lift-lot heel lift-outward rear cant-52cm-63/60 to flat/49cm-65/60. some tens of days to correct posture - and bingo! i'm mostly bumprider and hardboot forestcross racer)) if that counts

It is unfortunate that anyone would say try riding on flat feet is "the worst advice ever".

This is what happens when people refuse to try something new I think and they stop developing as riders.

Terekhov, who suggested that you try flat-footing?

[Jack M]

It is unfortunate that anyone would say try riding on flat feet is "the worst advice ever".

This is what happens when people refuse to try something new I think and they stop developing as riders.

It's nothing new. It's very old, and I have tried it, nay, lived it, for years.

I agree though, whatever works better <i>for you</i>.

[maddman]

It's nothing new. It's very old, and I have tried it, nay, lived it, for years.

And you tried this on a worldcup race tour, yes?

[chewy]

this no snow thing is gettin good

aside the testosterone pumped holier carve than thou...

plate bindings need tweaking..always. start and never stop experimenting

[terekhov]

Theres no right or wrong, when I look at the bindings of the fastest racers on the planet they are all different. It's not like all the podium folks are going with or with out cants????

completely agree, Billy

just little comment on my slightly offtopic comment: my consideration to going flat off angled bindings for some 7+ years is two-fold: pure curiosity and desire to experiment, and - thinking that's important - simplification: if I can ride comfortably without any SUBSTRACTIBLE feature - I almost definitely wanna substract it - sooner or later: occam's razor rule. so... I'm flat now, and it is good.

going ontopic: I own Coiler 196PR SuperG SuperBoard - and speed is pure joy. I think that centered mid-high stance (with very active anticipation of slopa angle changes!) with soft feet and tensioned legs - is a secret. SOFT feet helps to not loading any board's edge segments at any time. and - practice make permanent!) adding .02 to all commenters: flat straightligning on board is learnable skill, very subtle expert level though. and... know yourself and/or wear a helmet!

[terekhov]

Terekhov, who suggested that you try flat-footing?

some ex-BOLer who inevitably present in this topic) I'm overanalyzer type of person, so now - after almost 120 day season - I think I have many personal ideas and insights on that. at least my hardboot and softboot (and skate longboard) riding seems not in conflict at last. and no - I'm not a racer and never been one. just determinate hardboot freerider

[tex1230]

And you tried this on a worldcup race tour, yes?

Show us the canting setups of the top 10 men & women racers. I doubt any two of them are the same.

No need to be hostile toward Jack. And just because he (or anyone else) has not competed at top levels does not mean a damn thing. The best coach I ever had NEVER got on a snowboard (despite sending more than a few to world cup and olympic podiums).

edit: Maddman, the coach I refer to is probably the guy who trained your coach, if my guess if correct.

[Bordy]

completely agree, Billy

just little comment on my slightly offtopic comment: my consideration to going flat off angled bindings for some 7+ years is two-fold: pure curiosity and desire to experiment, and - thinking that's important - simplification: if I can ride comfortably without any SUBSTRACTIBLE feature - I almost definitely wanna substract it - sooner or later: occam's razor rule. so... I'm flat now, and it is good.

going ontopic: I own Coiler 196PR SuperG SuperBoard - and speed is pure joy. I think that centered mid-high stance (with very active anticipation of slopa angle changes!) with soft feet and tensioned legs - is a secret. SOFT feet helps to not loading any board's edge segments at any time. and - practice make permanent!) adding .02 to all commenters: flat straightligning on board is learnable skill, very subtle expert level though. and... know yourself and/or wear a helmet!

when it comes to stance IMHO each board rider combo will be on the riders preferance and the boards character.

Not to high jack the thread but to respond to your Super G statement, (since I love big boards and high speeds, Most people don't understand what I mean by fast unless they have ridden with me perhaps as a big board owner you do? But it is really only on my SG board that I even worry about stance anymore, I just mount my bindings as close to the edge as posible and go ride, sure I have a set width etc. But I like to think I can ride from very low angles to very high, but to get back on track, do you think having a narrower or wider board for super G speeds is better for carving, and or (see Here is how I tie it in....) going straight and what size, boot (mondo) r You?

"Practice makes permanant" This is the statement I have used as a instructor in every sport I have mentored. I always follow it up with "everyones idea of perect is different anyhow!"

[Bordy]

Show us the canting setups of the top 10 men & women racers. I doubt any two of them are the same.

No need to be hostile toward Jack. And just because he (or anyone else) has not competed at top levels does not mean a damn thing. The best coach I ever had NEVER got on a snowboard (despite sending more than a few to world cup and olympic podiums).

edit: Maddman, the coach I refer to is probably the guy who trained your coach, if my guess if correct.

Jerry to JJ sounds like how I would play my cards if we where playing clue.

(on the mountain , with the snowboard;) )

Yep Jerry was one fine none riding mofo, Everytime I see him or Tara, I thank them for what they did for so many folks!

Think of the alumni and were they are, Coaching national teams, privete teams, some cutrrently hold world and national titles some are the best big mountain riders on the planet, All thanks to Jerry's out side the box thinking.

Yan from the US team doesn't ride.

You don't need to be a good snowboard to help other snowboarders.

You do have to be a sick rider to compete at the higher levels however.

[tex1230]

Jerry to JJ sounds like how I would play my cards if we where playing clue.

(on the mountain , with the snowboard;) )

Yep Jerry was one fine none riding mofo.

DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!

[guesswho]

I leave you guys alone for TWO MINUTES and this is what happens!?!?! lol

Thanks for ALL of your inputs. Believe it or not, in the madness and dispute of whether or not cants have a place in this thread you answered some other questions I had.

When I originally posted on this thread I was wondering if there was a particular technique or subtle body position for staying straight at speed. I kinda figured that my inexperience was the major factor involved so its at least good to know that I just need more time on the mountain to dial in the balance and experience issues.

Its also good to know that Im not trying to look for one specific way to set up my bindings and that comfort is actually a good thing :)

I guess I'll just have to wait till its colder out to try to remedy the problem :(

IMO flat feet is some of the worst advice on the net.

Standing with one foot in front of the other, about 19 inches from toe to toe, angled at about 60 degrees, both feet ramped forward about 5-10 degrees due to built-in boot heel lift, lower legs cocked forward about 15 degrees by built-in boot forward lean is about the most physiologically unnatural snowboarding position I can think of. Using toe lift on the front foot and heel lift on the back foot, and maybe some cant corrects this.

On a side note, I did get to try on my gear a day or two ago and I think Ive got some adjusting to do. Jack, you make a lot of sense. I just figured last season that all that uncomfortable forward lean was necessary. Im sure theres a middle ground between comfort and a good riding stance. Im gonna go find it.

Thanks guys!!!

[maddman]

I meant no disrespect to Jack, who I presume is a vet of racing.

I agree that cuff angle presets, combinant with canting and ramping is unnatural.

When presented with unnaturally-cluttered complication, I opt for removing

vectors, not adding newer, even more unnatural compensatory vectors.

I have also noticed that higher level racing vets and really good coaches espouse a "ride the set up that works for you" philosophy, while recreational-riding instructors tend to promote a very polarized "That is wrong, this is right" philosophy.

I have learned more from coaches than from instructors, but I'm sure that many more learn more from instructors.

I am no great rider by any stretch, I have rarely run through a course and haven't even ridden snowboards that long, but I understand human mechanics (Phd candidate) and can convey ideas and see performance-inhibiting discrepancies.

I do not mean to impugn anyone else when I say that Billy Bordy conveys ideas exceptionally well like a successful world cup coach (which it sounds like he is).

[terekhov]

Not to high jack the thread but

2topicstarter: sorry for highjacking) but seems like you find useful info on your question too from our chat here?

to respond to your Super G statement, (since I love big boards and high speeds, Most people don't understand what I mean by fast unless they have ridden with me perhaps as a big board owner you do? But it is really only on my SG board that I even worry about stance anymore, I just mount my bindings as close to the edge as posible and go ride, sure I have a set width etc. But I like to think I can ride from very low angles to very high, but to get back on track, do you think having a narrower or wider board for super G speeds is better for carving, and or (see Here is how I tie it in....) going straight and what size, boot (mondo) r You?

not counting usual GS style boards from 180 range - I rode one definitely speedy board - it's my above mentioned coiler 196. it's 19cm waisted, and I set usual stance - yes, angles with minimal boot overhang (I don't need over 80deg edging angles, so I prefer some power in edgesets from little overhang) - it's usually 65-60 or so, and 50cm width, centered over inserts (it's best spot on all three coiler's which I rode - RC, AM and PR). my boots is head stratos 28.0, and different bindings (f2 race, catek os1, fin's race carbon, whatelse). because of overdampness of coiler's superboard construction (third of wood in core replaced with elastomers afaik), it's unusuall comfortable on high speeds, so I haven't mind thinking that I want wider of narrower waist - and higher or lower angles... I'm comfortable with 63-60 in woods and bumps, using lower angles on wider boards only

and - this coiler is heavy, so I think in wide version it will be VERY heavy... didn't mind it's good or bad too)

other board which I compare by speed-demonized-ride - is a pogo blitz 177. it's narrow 17cm waist, 15m radius which ride mostly like 18! (i'm 90kg) and likes not been carved or raced but simply hard-charged. it's too boards - coiler 196 and pogo blitz - on which I cannot yet found top speed limit - mine is lower)

"Practice makes permanant" This is the statement I have used as a instructor in every sport I have mentored. I always follow it up with "everyones idea of perect is different anyhow!"

perfection is inside, I think) it's internal calmness which you obtain when you slightly challenged. and permanence - is a result of playing in learning

and - on-topic - yes, I use flat-riding excercise with advanced students when teaching to ride: it's great to self-find subtle rotations in posture, which may not manifest them in carving or usual turny riding - but makes flat-riding impossible. just find comfortable empty slope which you can straightline without overwhelming fear - and DO IT! I do that myself daily when warming up on one of first runs of day. practice makes permanent)

PS sorry if my notes are hard to read - too little written english practice)

[terekhov]

maddman - please do not start eternal and always misguided instructor vs. coach thingie! it's the same countering of opinions as you mention as right-wrong, and so as an recreational instructor I never tell any definite trues - it's places me in nowhereland in your dichotomy

peace?))

[carvedog]

On a side note, I did get to try on my gear a day or two ago and I think Ive got some adjusting to do. Jack, you make a lot of sense.

I like that you are putting your gear on in August. Nice.

I ride a lot of outdated gear as fast as I can and I have to say that I love to run flat and fast. I use some really hard waxes and play with the fluoro sometimes too. No one around here passes me running flat.

I am stupid enough that I do cat tracks as runs sometimes just to practice running flat and to work on my tuck.

I meant no disrespect to Jack, who I presume is a vet of racing.

You should disrespect Jack every chance you get. I mean it would be different if the guy actually went and rode instead of just talking about it.

I agree that cuff angle presets, combinant with canting and ramping is unnatural.

When presented with unnaturally-cluttered complication, I opt for removing

vectors, not adding newer, even more unnatural compensatory vectors.

I have also noticed that higher level racing vets and really good coaches espouse a "ride the set up that works for you" philosophy, while recreational-riding instructors tend to promote a very polarized "That is wrong, this is right" philosophy.

I have learned more from coaches than from instructors, but I'm sure that many more learn more from instructors.

I am no great rider by any stretch, I have rarely run through a course and haven't even ridden snowboards that long, but I understand human mechanics (Phd candidate) and can convey ideas and see performance-inhibiting discrepancies.

I guess that explains all the techno babble above.

I do not mean to impugn anyone else when I say that Billy Bordy conveys ideas exceptionally well like a successful world cup coach (which it sounds like he is).

Yeah. You could do worse than to listen to Bordy. He has been particularly eloquent in this thread. Maybe sleep deprivation from baby boot camp (the first nine weeks of fatherhood) has helped him focus thoughts on riding.

Maddman - don't be mad. Just fill out your profile. The mods here won't sign you up for any gay porn sites and it might give us some info that you are a real person. Like what kind of gear you ride, where you are - stuff like that. It's hard for me to relate to folks on the forum who don't have any info up but that may just be me.

Oh yeah I am an instructor too. But no one ever learns anything from me except how to sit down in the middle of the run just over a blind knoll.

[maddman]

Try not to misinterpret my point-

I was speaking to the necessary actuality of the coaching/instructing split:

An effective instructor needs to instill new ideas on students, who are likely seeing the associated technique presented for (their) first time, so she/he needs to present 'rules'.

An effective coach functions under the presumption that the athletes have already learned 80% or more of their technical needs, and is there to assess tactical approaches of each athlete, while occasionally suggesting technical 'revisions'.

This is a necessary difference that has existed for at least century before snowboarding came to be.

It's not a rift or a battle, but rather an essential divergence of style for effective training, as we move up from the trunk of the newbie to the various branches of learning....some advanced athletes will diverge up a competitive branch, others will continue up a stylistic limb.

Neither is wrong, and both are absolutely essential.

Educational Snowboard culture still has much to glean from the trials of Educational Ski culture.

Some questions are best left to coaches, others to instructors.

An instructor will be more inclined to tell you how to do something, while a coach may be more inclined to suggest an exercise by which you may find your own solution.

[BlueB]

I hope you don't get haunted by the ghost of william blake tonight

Do you think we made that ghost madd, man? ;)

[ursle]

Do you think we made that ghost madd, man? ;)

I think the ghost turned into a troll :lol: