Hey go custom yourself.

[ur13]

I dont think it has the sidecut funkiness but it has the nose - bruce made me a X2 schtubby with a 19 waist (he talked me out of 18)

I'm thinking more around 170mm, even 160mm.

I've been reading alot of arguments here about new board designs and how riding has adapted to suit them, especially for racers. It is all well and good and makes total sense but some of us can clearly see the technical advantages of the technology involved with the new board shapes...but also can see how that could suit narrower boards with high angles and the fullbody/forward facing riding style and stance over the board.

Of course there are trade-offs here and there for everything but I find it very interesting there are only a handful (I can think of two really off hand) of board makers currently not totally adopting the current trends.

That is one thing that has been so cool about the freecarve scene for a longtime now. The different styles and takes at board design and riding styles. Granted the Bomber community is tight-knit and there are alot of like minds here thinking the same things for a reason.

But still...why does it seem everything is shaping up to be the same lately and if someone has a different point of view, be it a board maker or rider, it is just assumed to be wrong.

It's becoming deja-vu really.

[bobdea]

why?

just get a skwal

this pops up all the time, someone says "hey, the whole industry is wrong and I am right." usually though that person is dead wrong, not all the time but usually.

You are that guy right now, narrow boards BLOW for most people generally, few people make them work really well.

BTW, the reason that most companies are jumping on the bandwagon is the new boards are so much better. prior to the last few years the shapes stagnated other than they got a little wider in most cases.

seriously, the new boards are sick, wide is good. I can't do more than 22 but 20 is real nice.

[bumpyride]

But I'll still take fun over worrying about what board is best, as long as I can have fun on the boards I have (which I do).

[Bullwings]

I'll go with a car analogy here.

If you learn to race on a car with traction control, anti-lock brakes, stability management, electronically managed suspension, and power steering then go to a car that doesn't have any of that, you'll probably get schooled and crash and die...

However, if you do it the other way around and learn to race a car that doesn't have any driving aids at all then go to a car with all that good stuff, you're probably a better driver for it.

Some how, that's how i see the metal boards. I've never been on one or even something in the newer shapes, but I've been thinking about it for the past 2 months now.

Anyone know how much Bruce is charging these days for a full custom metal? Also, would i have to order my board NOW if i wanted to get it by say December or January of next season?

Btw, is this Bordy style advertising because the economy sucks and sales are low (Don't buy used... that Donek and F2 you got on the BOL classifieds sucks... Buy my new metal shapes - haha)? If anything that first post sounds more like a sales pitch to me than anything else. Maybe it's just tone. Some people you just can't get the proper message from because of the way it's delivered, no matter how right it is (probably just me).

[ur13]

why?

just get a skwal

this pops up all the time, someone says "hey, the whole industry is wrong and I am right." usually though that person is dead wrong, not all the time but usually.

You are that guy right now, narrow boards BLOW for most people generally, few people make them work really well.

BTW, the reason that most companies are jumping on the bandwagon is the new boards are so much better. prior to the last few years the shapes stagnated other than they got a little wider in most cases.

seriously, the new boards are sick, wide is good. I can't do more than 22 but 20 is real nice.

Standing at 90'ish/85'ish on a 138mm waist width skwal is a very different thing than riding a 175mm waist width board at 70/70'sih. I'm not interested in riding a skwal. I tried it and it's not fun (to me) nor is it as versatile as the type of board I'm thinking of. It's too much of an extreme to my legs.

I'm not calling anyone out here. Nor am I pointing a finger that the "industry is going the wrong way". I find these new ideas and technologies fascinating and amazing and from the stagnation that alpine has been in for the past few years from a design stand point it's great.

It says something when many people considered a 15+ year old board/design (which I ride currently as my primary board, BTW) as the gold standard. Only late last season and this season have many people moved to the direction of finding new boards that out-do that Madd 158. Even the hardcores that love the Madd 158 are finding better options. That is a very good thing.

I might have been a hold out to the "old school" of the Madd 158 but as I'm planning my equipment choices and purchases for next season (to replace the Madd 158 and a few other boards) I'm asking questions and reading everything I can find on the subject to make an educated decision.

So get off your high horse there friend, know your opinions are subjective and chill. I asked a question I've been wondering for a while now. I left my "opinions" out of it.

So back to my question.

I'm simply wondering if any manufacturer, besides say Virus (and even Virus has it's own take on things it seems), is playing with something that is not a 200mm waist board but has all the new ideas like decambered noses, blended sidecuts, new constructions, etc etc?

[Jack M]

I'm sure any of the custom builders would work with you.

And I didn't get the impression you were saying everyone is wrong but you.

[ur13]

I'm sure any of the custom builders would work with you.

And I didn't get the impression you were saying everyone is wrong but you.

Jack, I'm glad you didn't. It seemed someone else did though.

I do have some messages into some friends and custom builders about the thing you mentioned. However I'm trying to get up to speed with the new ideas, which I will admit I don't fully grasp yet (not like I did with what is called "the old school" now). Before I engage in detailed conversations with builders I like to get myself up to speed first. That is what I'm trying to do here.

Speaking of diverging from the masses though. Just what is up with Virus and their direction(s)? I know not many people have much love for Virus in this forum but I find it very curious. The frustrating thing is finding any detailed information on Virus boards/constructions...if only I could read German and Russian. I have reached out to an old friend about Virus but again am trying to educate myself first in order to have an informed discussion...

[tex1230]

ur13 - seriously, talk to bruce. get on his list NOW! and work with him for what you want. he's easy to talk to and will build to your specs...But know this - I was riding 65/67 on my Madds (18waist) and am riding the same angles on the 19 waist Coiler with no problem.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

reverse up = down (it has it's very own word why not use it? :)

reverse camber = rocker

and while on the subject.

"Anti-progessive" NOT!! "Progessive" YES!!

progressive is "progressively getting larger or smaller" so, why bother with "Anti" it is not helpful in describing what you are after.

I love new anything, I love old anything

Just had to post something to get the updates. Might as well post something sure to build the fire :)

[Bruce Varsava]

I have done quite a few metals at sub 19cm. Mostly last year as things have gone up a bit in width as the boards ride so smooth you do not get punished by a bit more width. I just like the added boot clearance and never really change my angles a whole bunch. Even on my 188 x 23 Monster I ride 53/49 and thats as low as I go. Leaves me about 1/2" per side of boot clearance so I can cruise over a lot of soft clumpy snow with no boot out. On 19 wide I 'll go 58/55 at the higher end and don't go any more than that. My current building technique allows me to easily tweak dimensions and I have done so much of it I have data for most sizes to adjust for flex pattern and stiffness. No secret that I have been getting pretty popular so am already booked into Nov and really do not plan to increase production which is a bit of a hassle but your board is built entirely by me and when doing custom stuff, this is definitely a good thing.

BV

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Even on my 188 x 23 Monster I ride 53/49 and thats as low as I go. Leaves me about 1/2" per side of boot clearance so I can cruise over a lot of soft clumpy snow with no boot out. BV

Yes indeed and you surfed the Pow beautifully with it Bruce!!

Yes, in soft snow I totally agree with having a bit more clearance, it works!!

I have found that my leg (broken last season) has no tollerance for the wider boards and the stresses it puts on my leg. I have found the narrower boards give me what I have always liked and currently need.

Billy , dude, you are the real deal!! Love your posts. Just don't get jacked by the replies, we want you to hang with us!!! Your friend, Bryan

[shane groshong]

New school race models have there place, but not good all the time. I have a kessler kst which without a doubt is a great ride. However, now I feel only a great board on the steeper terrain. I would much prefer a centered sidecut board for the mountain I ride (bachelor).

Here is why. The kessler works great on the steeper runs our hill offers. Hooks up great and let you cross the hill and control speed even with the opened up sidecut in the tail of the board, but the nose hooks up hard enough to control speed initially. However on the less steep terrain the board is slow and tends to not carry speed because of the initial hook up.

I am now riding 200 plus cm boards (diablo composites, tinkler) and am finding speed in greatly increase and thrill factor bigger. I feel the metal works better for the lighter rider, but big guys don't see the advantage that smaller guys get.

We all need a bunch of boards. Why not, but to say the new custom metal is the kill all, kill everything is a bit too much. I am starting to learn for me big is better, at least for the time. A year ago I never thought I needed a board over 190cm, now I want it all the time.

Bordy, I am not saying your wrong, but maybe not just right. You yourself made a video on the subject (granted pre metal days). And I believe the video included a burton pj and you guys ripped on it.

[bobdea]

New school race models have there place, but not good all the time. I have a kessler kst which without a doubt is a great ride. However, now I feel only a great board on the steeper terrain. I would much prefer a centered sidecut board for the mountain I ride (bachelor).

Here is why. The kessler works great on the steeper runs our hill offers. Hooks up great and let you cross the hill and control speed even with the opened up sidecut in the tail of the board, but the nose hooks up hard enough to control speed initially. However on the less steep terrain the board is slow and tends to not carry speed because of the initial hook up.

I am now riding 200 plus cm boards (diablo composites, tinkler) and am finding speed in greatly increase and thrill factor bigger. I feel the metal works better for the lighter rider, but big guys don't see the advantage that smaller guys get.

We all need a bunch of boards. Why not, but to say the new custom metal is the kill all, kill everything is a bit too much. I am starting to learn for me big is better, at least for the time. A year ago I never thought I needed a board over 190cm, now I want it all the time.

Bordy, I am not saying your wrong, but maybe not just right. You yourself made a video on the subject (granted pre metal days). And I believe the video included a burton pj and you guys ripped on it.

huh?

I am a big dude and certainly know the difference with metal right away.

probably notice it more the fatter I get because I have to work less on metal boards generally

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

New school race models have there place, but not good all the time. I have a kessler kst which without a doubt is a great ride. However, now I feel only a great board on the steeper terrain. I would much prefer a centered sidecut board for the mountain I ride (bachelor).

Here is why. The kessler works great on the steeper runs our hill offers. Hooks up great and let you cross the hill and control speed even with the opened up sidecut in the tail of the board, but the nose hooks up hard enough to control speed initially. However on the less steep terrain the board is slow and tends to not carry speed because of the initial hook up.

I am now riding 200 plus cm boards (diablo composites, tinkler) and am finding speed in greatly increase and thrill factor bigger. I feel the metal works better for the lighter rider, but big guys don't see the advantage that smaller guys get.

We all need a bunch of boards. Why not, but to say the new custom metal is the kill all, kill everything is a bit too much. I am starting to learn for me big is better, at least for the time. A year ago I never thought I needed a board over 190cm, now I want it all the time.

Bordy, I am not saying your wrong, but maybe not just right. You yourself made a video on the subject (granted pre metal days). And I believe the video included a burton pj and you guys ripped on it.

Spot on!!

Big dudes RIP big boards

I want to see you on the Tinkler "Red" 202.5cm, that must be a sight!!

Have you recieved your new Diablo Big Boy Board?? Stiffer?

[D-Sub]

then you're not current with where this sport is headed.

Of course..that's all that matters, right?

I remember now why I stopped coming here. Thanks for that, Bordy

[Jack M]

then you're not current with where this sport is headed.

Of course..that's all that matters, right?

I remember now why I stopped coming here. Thanks for that, Bordy

I said that, so umm, you're welcome? I think you're misinterpreting it. I suppose I should correct myself and say that <del>if you're not riding</del> <i>if you haven't tried</i> a metal board, then you're not current. It doesn't really matter, but it's accurate, sorry if it hurts some feelings.

[tex1230]

In response to Shane, I think there is a point at which shape of sidecut ceases to really matter...and it starts around 190 cm...just my opinion, but back when I was riding big boards like Lib Doughboys and Apocalypse Pharoahs, ad well as more modern long-ish boards like the rossi 190, The differences in sidecut made little difference once you got them to their intended speed...somewhere between OMFG and Mach Looney...

and with all the tech on tinklers, I don't think you can really compare them with anything else...

BTW, Dsub is right - some herre don't really care where the sport is heading. They are here for fun...isn't that the whole point once you step out of the racecourse? And I can have equal amounts of fun on alot of equipment, both old and new.

[Steve Prokopiw]

for different reasons.Obviously a person on the cutting edge of equipment development will tout the desirable characteristics of new technology(Billy).Understandable,and he walks his talk when it comes to performance.But a person with an educated opinion whose main goal is fun will not always see things with the same priorities.(Shane) After riding Shane's Diablo 200 Race and the Coiler 196Pr at Bachelor,neither of which are metal;and after riding hard and aggressively on no less than seven metal boards and two carbon/glass boards at SES,I can say that for me the possibilities are wide open for what I can experience on different types of boards.

I'm also significantly lighter than many of the big guys that don't see metal as the holy grail ,but I ride aggressively enough to get what they are saying about the differences between metal and non metal.

Shane said it best;we all need a bunch of boards!

[xy9ine]

Let's put it in this context: how much can a newbie get out of these new designs? I feel like the people who will benefit the most already know what they're doing and they're not flopping around and figuring out the right technique.

i think they can be hugely beneficial. this is my second 'carving' season, and picking up the new prior metal has been a revelation. i initially thought going wcr would be too much board for my level of riding, but i've since found otherwise. easy to ride in a variety of conditions, and super confidence inspiring. grippy & damp on hardpack / ice (first time on ice i couldn't believe what it was sticking to) = much more relaxed. decambered nose = relaxed innitiation in a variety of conditions, and no stuffing in the nasty stuff (chunky / concrete, etc). more taper = easy to whip the tail around / wiggle through traffic if need be. stub nose = big effective edge for the length; crank it over & it hauls a sweet clean line. harcore carver, without the asskicking if your technique isn't perfect. very forgiving & so much fun. this board has been the biggest contribution to my riding development so far. fantastic.

[Mike T]

Let's put it in this context: how much can a newbie get out of these new designs? I feel like the people who will benefit the most already know what they're doing and they're not flopping around and figuring out the right technique.

Yes and no. I would not recommend that a newbie get on a balls-to-the-wall modern world cup GS board, such as a Kessler or SG, or even a toned-down version such as a Coiler NSR. However I would definitely recommend that a newbie who has the means to do so, get on "something metal" that is designed to be friendly, for example a Coiler Mini-Monster, AM, or Schtubby or a Prior WCR metal.

These modern "friendly metal" boards will simply make the learning curve easier and more enjoyable. Some would say that this is bad because an older or more demanding board will "whip you into shape and keep you from developing bad habits". Hogwash, I say. You're either one of those people who is driven to learn good technique, or you're not. Having a more friendly board isn't going to change that. It is however going to remove some of the distraction from the learning curve and allow you to focus more on developing good technique. All I know is my riding was SUCK, SUCK, SUCK, SUCK, until I started riding friendly boards. Once I had easier to ride, more user-friendly boards things finally started to click for real. I find that easier boards draw me into better technique. Less time is spent worrying about going off thr run and more time is spent learning and simply having fun.

Oh yeah, that's what snowboarding is all about: fun! Modern friendly metal decks, whether under the feet of an expert or beginner, IMHO allow one to have more fun. Sure ether are some individual exceptions - for example Steve Prokopiw and Shane Groshong mentioned enjoying glass boards even after trying metal. These are two individuals who I've ridden with enough to know that... they are skilled enough where the "ease of use" benefits of the metal boards aren't helping them as much as say myself, or a newbie - they have room to focus on other things.

Oh, and in terms of modern race shapes: I've ridden some older race shapes and the newer ones are IMHO MUCH friendlier even to the non-expert. OK, my sample size is small - Coiler and Kessler - but I've ridden enough older racy boards and the new ones are just less work and more fun in my opinion.

[Jack M]

What Mike said. You can go down to the Porsche dealership and buy a 180mph car... even if you never take it to the track it will still be one hella fun grocery-getter.

[boarderboy]

but based on several years' hanging out on BOL, and 20+ years of beginner-to-intermediate hardbooting -

the feedback on metals has convinced me that for a modestly skilled, out-of-shape senior who gets in too-few days per season - an all-mountain titanal - Coiler, Donek, or Prior - with sufficient nose float for the rare powder day - is probably the state-of-the-art solution for one-board, go have fun riding. This is probably especially true here on the south Ice Coast where we go from hard groom to leg-burning mashed potatoes in just a few hours.

However, I'm also of the school that believes if you feel you have to own the latest-and-greatest board to truly have fun, you're really cheating yourself.

Give me my old, too-soft and seldom-used M6 asym with Snow Stix, my Scarpa AT's, and several wide Blues of good groom, and I'll be grinning from ear to ear at day's end, and looking forward to another session the next day.

For me, that's what it's all about.

cheers

BB

[Jack M]

ok... Bordy hasn't responded. I call flamebait. ;)

[Jack M]

However, I'm also of the school that believes if you feel you have to own the latest-and-greatest board to truly have fun, you're really cheating yourself.

Give me my old, too-soft and seldom-used M6 asym with Snow Stix, my Scarpa AT's, and several wide Blues of good groom, and I'll be grinning from ear to ear at day's end, and looking forward to another session the next day.

Yeah but taken to that extreme you're also cheating yourself. I know you would have a lot more fun on newer and better gear than <i>that</i>. That depression-era mentality might be saving you some coin (and if you're in or close to retirement in this climate I don't blame you) but at the cost of your own enjoyment. That's penny-wise and pound foolish IMO. If too many people were like that we wouldn't be supporting the manufacturers enough to keep them in the game.

[Mike T]

That depression-era mentality might be saving you some coin (and if you're in or close to retirement in this climate I don't blame you) but if too many people had it we wouldn't be supporting the manufacturers enough to keep them in the game.

Of course, there will always be someone like me around who will keep the manufacturers in business by owning the entire line-up :o