UPZ RC10 vs. Deeluxe Track 700

[garyj]

Paging all resident authorities to the front---all resident authorities to the front please!!!

Anyone that rely personal experiences with either boot, your opinions would be appreciated. I currently ride 02 Indys and have read all of the literature on BOL and Hardbooter about the boots. Any further insights would be helpful. Thanks.

[queequeg]

Me too ... I've really been thinking a lot about the RC10's for next season.

[Chris Houghton]

Second hand - not personal experience - but the UPZ boot places the heel of your foot considerably higher in the boot (relative to the binding) than the Raichle/Deeluxe, so much so that I know a few that gave up the UPZ for that reason.

This is something that not everyone realizes, so I thought it worth pointing out, especially if you're already using the Raichle and thinking about changing over.

No, I'm not saying UPZ is bad, I'm sure others will be doing that soon enough.

[Dan]

Pfft, I don't know why everyone's talking about the performance/fit, when what's really important is how they look!

Check this thread from Hans for a look at next year's Deeluxe's and UPZ's. http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=25047

Personally I'm going to try to eke out another season or two from my Raichles, so I can avoid both the Deeluxe candy-cane meltdown and UPZ's ghoul-glow white boots for next year.

[Ear dragger]

All I know is Upz's because I ride on them. They are very stiff overall, which I like alot! I find them to be very reactive, Though you must put in an aftermarket liner like a dalbello silver. When I first got them, they gave me some pretty bad shin bang. But with the nice liners and tightening the boots properly, I have pain free riding all day long!! All in all, fantastic boot, I probably have around 50 or so days on them and they are great! Hope that helps

[big canuck]

If you have a bigger volume foot, neither. Head Stratus Pros for bigger volume feet. My $0.02

[LeeW]

I'm already planning to order another pair of UPZ boots this summer. My current UPZ boots has been serving me very well for the last 4-5 years. I've pretty much exclusively use my UPZ boots for working on my skis on an almost daily basis. Might go for the white boots, tho'.

[johnasmo]

Ride what fits. I have a wide, flat foot. Wide in the toes. Flat as in fallen arches. I tried Raichle's when first starting hardboots, but found the toe box and midfoot too tight; not all day comfortable. The UPZs fit my feet much better; all day comfortable. The gray tongues of the RSVs were quite stiff, but the black tongues that come with the RTR and RC10 are much more forgiving. The liner was upgraded between RSV and RTR, but the shell mold for all three is the same. The RC10 is just lighter than the RTR; must use a different plastic. I think last year's RTR is probably the best bang for buck deal out there. Around $399 if Dan's still got your size. But whatever the cost, like I said, ride what fits.

[Gleb]

I have both and the UPZs never really worked well for me. Each morning would start off with a countdown of when my foot was going to cramp up or something. Had foot beds, thermo liners, and nothing worked. The buckles kepts snapping on them as well when it was really cold out.

I do like how the UPZs are stiffer but I've gotten used to the slightly less stiff t700s. You really can't go wrong with either boot. Its just being lucky enough to have them work for you. The Deeluxe fit my foot right out of the box, and I still haven't molded them.

What was deeluxe thinking with that color scheme?

[queequeg]

A few questions about the UPZ:

How much travel is achievable with the lean mechanism. Some people I have spoken to seem to indicate that it is a stiff boot but that the cuff joint will travel quite a bit, and that you can adjust the stiffness across a fairly wide range, is that so? I like a boot that is laterally stiff but with a bit of (supported) flex, fore and aft, with progressively increasing stiffness as you flex.

Re: heel lift - is it that the heel is significantly higher than the toe, or that the boot just generally has a lot of rise?

My feet are a bit wide in the toes but not super wide, but I have a narrow heel - which is why I think the UPZ might be a better fit. My understanding is that the UPZ has a wide toe box, and a fairly narrow heel. My Head's fit Ok but I think they could do with a narrower heel area, and I wish the cuff were a bit higher.

[Michael Pukas]

I bought the 700's a week or so before the SES, 'cuz that's what Fin rides and he's cool.

I'm having some fitting issues, and am considering getting a smaller shell size, or possibly the RC10's. I checked out the RC10's yesterday - I've looked at them before, but never tried them on. So I did...

The RC10's are nice - much nicer than I thought they'd be - quite a boot really. And, oddly enough, I found much more similarities with the 700 than I expected - basic lower & upper shell and tongue concept. But there the similarities end... I found them much stiffer out of the box than the 700's - like really stiff - like the walk mode being on or off didn't make much difference; but at least there is a walk mode. And extremely difficult to get into - partly due to my sock friction against the liner. The stock liner is not junk - I'd give it try - it's got a lots of interesting features and customizable parts - the tongue is attached w/ Velcro and is movable; there's rigid plastic on the tongue for more stiffness; there are pads that can be Velcro-ed on to adjust the fit - why not just buy a moldable liner?

<O:p

I think the 5 buckles actually work - they do spread out the tongue pressure very evenly over the top of the foot, and have tremendous heel hold down. But I think the buckles themselves are junky - the 700's have much better buckles. The upper cuff buckles have those silly little retention wires in the teeth - pointless to me on a carving boot - check out Garmont's Easy-Lock buckles on their Radium A/T and Prophet tele boots - a retention mechanism that works - there's a spring loaded bar that runs the length of the tooth bed that is depressed w/ a button for in and out. That's real boot technology and design. And halle****inlujah Deeluxe/Raichle finally got rid of the zippers and started using real buckles - how many years has it been since man started walking upright?

<O:pOne big issue for me is the fact that the sole blocks are not t-nutted onto the shell. They're just wood screws into the plastic bores. It's easy enough to change them out to t-nuts though. The sole blocks are made of hard slippery plastic, not grippy at all on a hard surface - may be good to dig in and get grip on snow, but I think borderline dangerous walking on ice. The toe block wraps up the front of the boot and become the ledge for the toe bail/clip - whereas the 700's have the ledge built into the shell and the toe blocks are completely under foot. That takes all the pressure of the toe bail/clip off of the boot shell and puts in on the toe block attachment - all the more reason to t-nut. And I'm not sure about the whole concept of the boot being able to be used as a ski boot by changing the sole blocks - I've often thought about trying ski boots for carving, but I think an alpine snowboard boot has to do things differently enough that it warrants a different design. <O:p</O:p

<O:p</O:p

The RC10's are made of a lightweight plastic - if you put a thermo liner in, you'd have a very light boots. The plastic is also supposed to remain constant in flex as temperatures change. I've heard that many times before... <O:p</O:p

<O:p</O:p

I like the RC10's enough that I'd like to try them - not sure I'd pay full retail for them at this point as I have a brand new pair of 700's, but if I could score them on sale - or better yet find a place to demo them - I'm very curious to see how they ride. The main turn off for me was how stiff they felt in the shop, and how painful and awkward it was just to walk in them - but that's not being used to them, and not a basis for performance on-hill.

I've never been a fan of Raichle/Deeluxe boots - mainly the old SB design - but if you like it and it works for you then great! I threw down for the 700's because that design has been around for about 10 years now - unchanged except for the buckles and goofy color schemes each year. It seems to be the go-to boot. I have to say I'm not thrilled with it, but as I said earlier I'm having some fit issues - foot pain so bad I have to stop riding. It's most likely due to the shell size being too big (No, I didn't listen to Fin, I thought I knew better and could get away w/a comfort-fit shell). As I ride the boot more, I'm starting to appreciate it more - it is a very nice boot. <O:p</O:p

<O:p</O:p

I like the old Burton Fire boots - besides fitting my feet, I liked they way they rode. It's hard for to explain why - but mainly it's the shell design - it's more of a wrap around design that relies less on a tongue for resistance - similar to a wrap shell ski boot. Great boot - now if someone would dig up the molds for that boot, make it w/ the RC10 plastic and incorporate a walk mode w/ Fin's BTS, that'd be a boot! <O:p</O:p

<O:p</O:p

Both are very nice boots that do things a little bit differently. Alpine snowboard boot companies - Deeluxe, UPZ, Head - really need to take a look at the developments in alpine skiing, ski mountaineering and freestyle skiing boots over the last couple of years - there are new boot designs, materials and technologies that are light years ahead of alpine snowboard boot design.

that's it. :AR15firin:AR15firinmpp

[WinterGold]

@Michael Pukas - interesting read. I also loved my Fire boots, but there were always problems with breakage (especially the transparent versions ...). Unfortunately the molds from Burton were destroyed (just like the molds from Northwave - these would have been very interesting!).

New developments would be nice, but very expensive ... And I don´t think that the snowboard hardboot market is big enough for that ...

[BadBrad]

I'm intrigued by the UPZ RX8 boot that I recently saw. Looks like it would be a less stiff version of the RC10. Anyone tried it?

[Petrol]

.....I like the old Burton Fire boots - besides fitting my feet, I liked they way they rode. It's hard for to explain why - but mainly it's the shell design - it's more of a wrap around design that relies less on a tongue for resistance - similar to a wrap shell ski boot. Great boot - now if someone would dig up the molds for that boot, make it w/ the RC10 plastic and incorporate a walk mode w/ Fin's BTS, that'd be a boot!....

Make mine in Dark Grey or Flat Black with the Red 700 buckles please!

[queequeg]

Thanks for the info Michael!

[mr_roboteye]

<O:p</O:p

I like the old Burton Fire boots - besides fitting my feet, I liked they way they rode. It's hard for to explain why - but mainly it's the shell design - it's more of a wrap around design that relies less on a tongue for resistance - similar to a wrap shell ski boot. Great boot - now if someone would dig up the molds for that boot, make it w/ the RC10 plastic and incorporate a walk mode w/ Fin's BTS, that'd be a boot! <O:p</O:p

<O:p</O:p

Another fan of burton fires here. My fires are on their last legs, so I have to go through the same decision as you guys. 700's or RC10's. Luckily for me where Dan Yoya lives is about a four hour drive from me. Well worth it to be able to try on the boots, before you buy.

My gut is telling me RC10's. Another awesome thing about burton fires was their really strong heel ledge design. Since the plastic used for the sole / heel blocks was a different hardness and type, and all the load was borne by the screws and t-nuts, I never saw ledges crack and break like I have seen with heel ledges that are integrated with the shell, a la deeluxe and UPZ. I think it's a mistake to have the toe and heel ledges made from the same material as the shell. Burton fires had this problem solved.

later,

Dave R.

[mr_roboteye]

@Michael Pukas - interesting read. I also loved my Fire boots, but there were always problems with breakage (especially the transparent versions ...). Unfortunately the molds from Burton were destroyed (just like the molds from Northwave - these would have been very interesting!).

New developments would be nice, but very expensive ... And I don´t think that the snowboard hardboot market is big enough for that ...

It's very unfortunate that the fire molds have been destroyed. The shell only needed some minor improvements to be a little better. The liner was pretty cheap, but this was easily corrected with a different liner. You don't really realize how good fires were until you compare with "newer" boots.

Oh well..........

later,

Dave R.

[WinterGold]

It's very unfortunate that the fire molds have been destroyed. The shell only needed some minor improvements to be a little better. The liner was pretty cheap, but this was easily corrected with a different liner. You don't really realize how good fires were until you compare with "newer" boots.

Oh well..........

later,

Dave R.

You are a 100% correct! But the problems with the little cracks on the shell and the tongue (both happened to me and lots others) would have required to change the molds and the last owner (of the molds) wasn´t willing to put that amount of money into it ... pretty sad ...

[garyj]

I rode the translucent green Fires for several years and really enjoyed the boot. The tongue on my back foot developed a crack about an inch long and continued to get longer until I drilled a hole at the end of the crack. I then drilled six holes, three on each side of the crack, and ran three zip ties to suture the crack closed. Kind of a jerry rigging, but after not being able to find a replacement tongue, I got desperate and came up with this solution, which lasted the rest of the season before I went to the Indy the following year.

I have ridden the Indys for seven years now and they have served me well most of the time. The zipper buckles are inadequate, and one of the buckle rivets inside the boot is sometimes troublesome to my foot. Aside from this, I like the flex of the boot and its overall performance characteristics. I will most likely stay with Deeluxe simply because of the track record (no pun intended) and I am already conditioned to the boot, which has been improved with a new buckle system and thermofit.

Thanks for sharing your insights.

[Call me jack]

i just ordered 700Ts today... so i think they're better... lol sorry, i got nothing... i'll hopefully be riding (and racing) on them next saturday.

[waypastfast]

Love my UPZ RC10's, even the liner kicks ass after a day of riding! No regrets with buying these boots, and i was coming out of some older SB423's.

[ohiomoto]

Love my UPZ RC10's, even the liner kicks ass after a day of riding!

Only one Day?! I think my RTRs came with the same Flow Liner an my foot felt like it was clamped between two 2x4s for a few days! They feel great now, but I had my doubts at first.

EDIT: I doubt I rode my boots for more that 2-3 hours in any one day so I guess you could break them in a full day of riding. My bad. :)

[ohiomoto]

I guess I could chime in since I have a few days on my RTRs. Since this is my first hardboot, I can't compare it anything other than my ski boots.

1. I hate the buckles. They don't offer much micro adjustment, they are clunky and a pain to keep out of the way while trying to enter and exit the boot. I prefer the buckles on any "race" (ski) boot any day, but this is a minor inconvenience.

2. The liner was rock hard to start, but very comfortable once broken in.

3. Seems like there is a decent about of forward lean adjustment, but what the hell do I know?

4. The hard plastic toe doesn't bother me at all, but I've been ridding in ski boots since 1995 so I'm use to it and don't know what I'm missing.

5. I have a very narrow/low volume foot. The boots fit me well in the heel and ankle area. There is plenty of room in the fore foot area for me. I've maxed out the top two buckles due to my skinny lower legs, but there is another set of holes pre-drilled so I can move the hooks in without any trouble.

6. I noticed how well the spring system worked to smooth out the snow on both healside and toeside turns.

7. This is the hardest boot that I have ever had to get on and off of my feet! And this is coming from a guy who us used to stiff (ski) racing boots! I just don't get the tongue design. (What the hell is wrong with a traditional overlap boot?) Again, this is something I only do once a day so it's a minor inconvenience.

8. I guess the boot is stiff, but I think the springs help make the flex progressive. I ski in Nordica Dobbermann boots. These have a flex index of 130, but they have a very nice forward flex to them. (A far cry from the older race boots that were rock hard everywhere!) I have never used my Nordicas on my board, so I can't say for sure, but if you took the springs out of the equation, I would bet the RTRs are stiffer.

Anyway, I bet the new RC10 is a little nicer than my RTR, but the basics are probably the same. I'm sorry I have not other hardboot to reference. The only other boots I ever used over the years were Sanmarco TR2s and TR3s.

The thing that strikes me most is how much nicer my simple 4-buckle ski boots feel. Like Michael Pukas, I think the technology they are using in ski boots blows away my snowboard boot. Just comparing how much softer the flex is with my Nodicas compared to my older TR3s amazes me. Latterly they are just as stiff and fast, but they flex so much nicer and allow you to stay so centered. It's just a 4 buckle boot. I looks like any 4-buckle boot that we have all seen over the past 30 years, but they work magic with the plastic. Give me that kind of boot with some forward lean adjustments and a BTS. Give me that and I would be in heaven.

Sorry about the rant. I hope there is something useful in this. I'll shut up now. :)

[NateW]

I have Raichle 324s and UPZ RTRs. I had a set of Raichle 600s briefly but didn't like the way they fit my feet. Which is best for you probably depends on the shape of your foot more than anything else. UPZs are wider in the forefoot, Raichles have more volume around the ankle. UPZs fit my feet much better.

Pretty much everything everybody else wrote rings true.

UPZs are quite stiff. I have ride with the walk/ride lever in the 'ride' position but with the spring collars set as "soft" as they will go. Fore-aft stiffness is only a little more than my Raichles, but lateral stiffness is much more. Initially it still felt too stiff but I learned to really like them. My Raichle's feel pretty soft and weird now. :)

I use them with FinTec heels, held in with t-nuts from a hardware store. I have zero trust for the way the boots heels were held in with screws that just bit into plastic. I'm sure it's fine for bail bindings (and for the toe of (f)intec bindings) but not for (f)intec heels, no way.

It's pretty awkward to get in and out of UPZs. But, as noted above, that's only a couple minutes at the start and end of the day.

I'm using thermoflex liners in mine. I never tried the stock liners, I just like thermoflex too much to use regular liners.

Again, I suggest going with the one that fits your feet best. The boots are different but they each have their strengths. I was really surprised to find how much I like the stiffness of the UPZs, after being so happy with the lack of stiffness in my 324s (and 124s before those).

[ohiomoto]

I use them with FinTec heels, held in with t-nuts from a hardware store. I have zero trust for the way the boots heels were held in with screws that just bit into plastic. I'm sure it's fine for bail bindings (and for the toe of (f)intec bindings) but not for (f)intec heels, no way.

The heal is not an issue with standard bindings, but we should all be aware that the toe could come lose. I'll be t-nutting mine at some point just to be safe.