Jack M Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 One reason health care costs are so high is because people don't get off their butts and get excercise. People would rather take a pill for that obesity related condition instead of actually loosing weight. Fact. I'll never forget the time at work when we got a letter saying our healthcare costs were going up, because people would prefer to take expensive prescriptions than alter their lifestyle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 You can deny medical care if you aren't a threat to yourself or anyone else. There is no law against denying care.One reason health care costs are so high is because people don't get off their butts and get excercise. People would rather take a pill for that obesity related condition instead of actually loosing weight. depends, if someone that's qualified decides you need a ambulence ride you get it. Seen it first hand. The girl had a gash on her head and was saying she was going to stitch it herself repeatedly and they still told her she had to get treatment. seen it at ski resorts too, they on the spot decide that you can't decide for yourself. A dude had slammed his head hard enough that one EYE was bulging out and bleeding from the socket, he got a toboggan ride swinging at the patrollers the whole time. Cops will do it too. it's almost always done out of common sense and thinking person x does not have any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Fact. I'll never forget the time at work when we got a letter saying our healthcare costs were going up, because people would prefer to take expensive prescriptions than alter their lifestyle. missing the point, if you're uninsured basic visits diagnosing simple illnesses can cost $100s. they require no special high tech equipment other than a stethoscope. One reason although not the only one insurance is so expensive. In and of it's self hospitals just having to deal with insurance companies to get their money is a huge cost patients end up paying for. not a very efficient system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 missing the point, if you're uninsured basic visits diagnosing simple illnesses can cost $100s. they require no special high tech equipment other than a stethoscope. One reason although not the only one insurance is so expensive. In and of it's self hospitals just having to deal with insurance companies to get their money is a huge cost patients end up paying for. not a very efficient system. http://minuteclinic.com/en/USA/Treatment-and-Cost.aspx Think again. It's going to take 5-10 years, but there are numerous plans already underway to trim the adminstrative overhead of healthcare cost. I'll certainly agree with your assessment that this is where cuts need to me made....yet I'm ready and armed with the data to suggest innovations like MinuteClinic can provide a lower cost / higher value service than the government.... As always...follow the money trail. Competition will bring down the cost....and in Men's Warehouse fashion "I guarantee it" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 http://minuteclinic.com/en/USA/Treatment-and-Cost.aspxThink again. It's going to take 5-10 years, but there are numerous plans already underway to trim the adminstrative overhead of healthcare cost. I'll certainly agree with your assessment that this is where cuts need to me made....yet I'm ready and armed with the data to suggest innovations like MinuteClinic can provide a lower cost / higher value service than the government.... As always...follow the money trail. Competition will bring down the cost....and in Men's Warehouse fashion "I guarantee it" why do you think that is? It's a actual market demand based on what? The growing unrest of a public warming up to things like a single payer system at least in part. Awhile back I read a long and dry paper on just that, that healthcare providers would cheapen up when there was serious talk of socializing health care. Pharma companies would be more resistant but would follow suit but the effect would be short term until the talk of it calmed down. Getting care and paying outright in canada is much cheaper for things like glasses and dentures is much cheaper. This is what many people do in VT and NH it comes out cheaper to do either in canada and paying directly for the service and actual glasses or dentures than it does in the US even without the canadian government coverage. This is what my relatives in VT do. To get glasses and dentures in one trip is cheaper than to use their insurance to do so in the US. My understanding is that most plans in the US would pay for your appointment to get fitted for the dentures but not the dentures themselves and then the actual dentures are a half the price in quebec than in VT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Getting care and paying outright in canada is much cheaper It depends on how you define cheaper. It's like saying a bus trip is cheap at 50 cents...yet you don't see that it's subsidized at a price much higher by people who don't use the service. I'd have to look at the data, but fairly certain that no public transportation in the US is profitable, yet taxi service is thriving. Anyhoo..back to healthcare. It's also not accurate to compare healthcare cost of one nation to another because we live in a global economy. i.e. Canada is able to leverage the innovations, treatments, devices and process which have been developed in the US (and manufactured overseas) while taking advantage of their own tax system. If Canada had to stand on its own...the price would be double/triple. So, great for Canada! I'll toss out a kudos for Obama claiming the answer is somewhere in the middle (albiet pertaining to education, not healthcare) last night. You need to fix the existing system and invest, while giving people the option for alternatives. Regardless of the system and cost, people simply need to stop going to the ER to get asprin....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boarderboy Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 and be dragged away by the cops, outside/inside my State Legislature, and again in D.C. (and again, and again wherever necessary) until we get an available-to-all, single-payer medical care alternative. Our current health care "system" is ruinous and barbaric. "I'm mad as hell, and I won't take it any more!!" out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted February 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Well now that we have established that basic care is horrendously expensive and the whole system needs fixed, Welcome to the future. Natural wellness based care. Most of my wellness patients pay around $120 per month and for that they receive all the basic entry level care they need. I do all the diagnostic work and refer if necessary but that is seldom necessary. The anecdotal evidence in my office shows few if any visits to quick cares or ER and very few GP visits. I teach people to take responsibility for their own health and how to develop a lifestyle that is independant from the current medical system. As for emergency care, I can Xray just about anything for under $100 If its broken you go to an orthopedic if its not you didn't blow $3000 in the ER. There are lots of research articles looking at costs medicine vs Chiropractic , VA for one and various states have done work comp analysis, These studies show a high degree of patient satisfaction and anywhere from %40 -%80 lower costs. Its cheaper because its lower cost and because you are healthier and don't need as much care. The market shift is significant 300 million visits to medical doctors and 625 million visits to alternative care in 2005. hey Bob theres the free market at work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 If we socialize healthcare, Canada will be f**ked. Canadians are not allowed, by law, to pay for their own basic healthcare and that of their families. The state determines who will get health care, and why, and when, and how long they will have to wait, which is sometimes months or years for even life-threatening illnesses. As such, they have an entire industry of "Private Medical Brokers" who get people care in the US if they can't wait. <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_Rf42zNl9U&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_Rf42zNl9U&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXZaTXDu3Os&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXZaTXDu3Os&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 If we socialize healthcare, Canada will be f**ked. Canadians are not allowed, by law, to pay for their own basic healthcare and that of their families. The state determines who will get health care, and why, and when, and how long they will have to wait, which is sometimes months or years for even life-threatening illnesses. As such, they have an entire industry of "Private Medical Brokers" who get people care in the US if they can't wait.That's the usual alarmist viewpoint of right-leaning Americans who haven't actually used the system. We have our problems of course. But there are not years of waiting for life-threatening illnesses. We have stupid waiting lists for elective surgeries, it's true. But most important stuff is resolved promptly. I can get an appointment with my doctor within the week usually, and if that's not fast enough I can go to the walk-in clinic and wait around for an hour. Any bloodwork or x-ray or whatever I've needed has been done same-day. In fact my entire extended family has received good care. My dad had prostate cancer, he received prompt surgery and has been just fine for the last 5 years or whatever it's been. Same year my mom had a blown disk in her neck, again had prompt surgery, got it fused and has been fine ever since. I've never had an issue with the system that wasn't personal, ie I've had to deal with a couple of idiot interns and an arrogant surgeon but I don't blame that on Medicare.MRIs are a different story, we definitely need more of those or more accurately more techs to operate the ones we have. My dad's doctor wouldn't get him an MRI for his prostate as in his opinion the result would be inconclusive. But we don't have to go to the US to resolve that - they have private MRI clinics in Alberta. Dad drove to Edmonton, paid out $800 and got inconclusive results - so in my opinion, his doc made the right call in not wasting limited resources here. I don't disagree that private research in the US benefits the Canadian system. It's hard to put a number on it. And if you've got the money, you can get a higher level of care in the US. But every study I've seen shows that we get more bang for our buck than the US system and that the average Joe in Canada is much better off. The less than average Joe is way, way better off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 That's the usual alarmist viewpoint of right-leaning Americans who haven't actually used the system. My wife used the system in France. She broke her leg near her ankle in Paris (red wine + Bateaumouche = oops). We went to a hospital there in Paris and they put on a cast. For free! We were amazed. Until, as we were waiting to be discharged another doctor happened to walk by and notice that her leg had been set completely wrong. A broken leg is supposed to be set with the ankle at 90 degrees, otherwise after it heals you won't be able to walk normally. My wife's cast was done at about a 45 degree angle. Do-over! I would expect better from a doctor in the nation's capital. We have our problems of course. But there are not years of waiting for life-threatening illnesses. Wait, so those videos never happened? (did you watch them?) I'm very glad you haven't had a similar experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawndoggy Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 My wife used the system in France. She broke her leg near her ankle in Paris (red wine + Bateaumouche = oops). We went to a hospital there in Paris and they put on a cast. For free! We were amazed. Until, as we were waiting to be discharged another doctor happened to walk by and notice that her leg had been set completely wrong. A broken leg is supposed to be set with the ankle at 90 degrees, otherwise after it heals you won't be able to walk normally. My wife's cast was done at about a 45 degree angle. Do-over! I would expect better from a doctor in the nation's capital. What is it about our system that prevents malpractice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trailertrash Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 My wife used the system in France. She broke her leg near her ankle in Paris (red wine + Bateaumouche = oops). We went to a hospital there in Paris and they put on a cast. For free! We were amazed. Until, as we were waiting to be discharged another doctor happened to walk by and notice that her leg had been set completely wrong. A broken leg is supposed to be set with the ankle at 90 degrees, otherwise after it heals you won't be able to walk normally. My wife's cast was done at about a 45 degree angle. Do-over! I would expect better from a doctor in the nation's capital. If our system was free of mistakes you would have an argument with this point. I don't see how it is relevant at all. Mistakes happen in both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 My wife used the system in France.[snip]You can get bad doctors anywhere, even in the mighty US.Wait, so those videos never happened? (did you watch them?) I'm very glad you haven't had a similar experience.Sorry, no access to youtube from work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 What is it about our system that prevents malpractice? If our system was free of mistakes you would have an argument with this point. I don't see how it is relevant at all. Mistakes happen in both. You guys should teach women how to read words that aren't there. Wasn't saying US doctors are perfect, just that I had an experience with a socialized system, and I would have expected better. Sorry, no access to youtube from work. Check it out when you get a chance. Scary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trailertrash Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 You made a point about the time frame for care: The state determines who will get health care, and why, and when, and how long they will have to wait, which is sometimes months or years for even life-threatening illnesses. Neil made a counter point with real life experiance: That's the usual alarmist viewpoint of right-leaning Americans who haven't actually used the system. We have our problems of course. But there are not years of waiting for life-threatening illnesses. We have stupid waiting lists for elective surgeries, it's true. But most important stuff is resolved promptly. (snip) You made a point about a mistake: My wife used the system in France. Until, as we were waiting to be discharged another doctor happened to walk by and notice that her leg had been set completely wrong. How is your mistake point relevant? (I didn't watch the videos either) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 How is your mistake point relevant? Just saying I'm not an American with no experience with the system. (I didn't watch the videos either) typical. :p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trailertrash Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Just saying I'm not an American with no experience with the system.typical. :p Fail. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Just saying I'm not an American with no experience with the system.I thought we were talking about Canadian health care, not French. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 I thought we were talking about Canadian health care, not French. sorry, "a" nationalized system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 what does a MRI cost out of pocket in the US? Not making a point, asking a question. Skatha? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 sorry, "a" nationalized system.They're not all the same. Canada's is not the best, but it's not the worst, either.I'm sure for every account of someone who had issues with the Canadian system, multiple accounts of people who have fallen through the cracks with the US system can be found, not to mention all the ones who have been bankrupted by their medical bills. You have to look at the big picture. That being said, nobody denies we have problems with the system and people are actively looking into fixing it. But nobody is considering throwing it out in favour of a privatized system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 They're not all the same. Canada's is not the best, but it's not the worst, either.I'm sure for every account of someone who had issues with the Canadian system, multiple accounts of people who have fallen through the cracks with the US system can be found, not to mention all the ones who have been bankrupted by their medical bills. You have to look at the big picture. That being said, nobody denies we have problems with the system and people are actively looking into fixing it. But nobody is considering throwing it out in favour of a privatized system. WRONG! I'm sure some US insurance companies are pumping money in to right wing canadian officials pockets to get just that. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 WRONG! I'm sure some US insurance companies are pumping money in to right wing canadian officials pockets to get just that. lol Not going to happen. Even the hint of privatizing medicare is political suicide in this country. Suggesting, for example, that people with the means could go to private clinics immediately brings up rants about "two-tiered health-care", causes the NDP to raise the tired old ghost of Tommy Douglas and generally causes a hasty retreat of whatever politico brought up the topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted February 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 We moved my grandmother back to the states after the canadian healcare system nearly killed her. She went to the hospital three seperate times complaining of horrible stomach pain. she was given painkillers and sent home with the admonition to get on the six week waiting list for a CT scan. We brought her across the boarder where she was scanned and rushed into emergency surgery with a burst appendix. She's fine now thank you. There is no incentive in a socialist healthcare system to become a healthcare professional. why go to school for 10 years to make the same wage as a truck driver with a tenth grade education. I understand Canada is already experiencing a shortage of nurses etc. appendicitis is a softball diagnosis and one that is inexcusable to miss let alone expect a patient to wait six weeks for confirmation. I will take private healthcare anyday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.