Jack M Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 missing the point entirely, I was stating that modernization and a upwardly moving standard of living came with the industrial revolution regardless of the political system involved. Countries have and do still experience this at different times. Look at the developing countries in Africa and Asia. No you missed the point entirely. The point was, there was no modernization or industrial revolution until after the birth of capitalism in a country with a system of severely limited government. Any country's modernization after 1776 was/is because of or a reaction to capitalism. I was pointing out that the apparent indirect argument in the text you posted was that capitalism is what is responsible for modernization. It is. Regardless of the system innovation happens for a multitude of reasons and economic growth is not limited to pure capitalist societies or free ones for that matter. I can easily make the same argument for hitler's germany, fascism. Regimes that create economic growth by force ultimately fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted February 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 We should all pause and take note of this special moment. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: can I get a rim shot :lurk::lurk: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted February 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Our system isn't what it says it is. We are nearly fascist in everything we do with a dash of socialism to sweeten the stench. Our system is owned and operated by big pharma companies. they own the schools and write the textbooks etc etc. so its hard to say ours is a better system without puking but I don't think socialist based systems are the answer to the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petrol Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 missing the point entirely, yes you are.that the upwardly moving standard of living in communist UUSR was in no small part fueled by the blood of tens of millions and the forced labor of many millions more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 No you missed the point entirely. The point was, there was no modernization or industrial revolution until after the birth of capitalism in a country with a system of severely limited government. Any country's modernization after 1776 was/is because of or a reaction to capitalism.It is. Regimes that create economic growth by force ultimately fail. western europe experienced their industrial revolution at about the same time. Who bankrolled our revolution? Moreover, you can make the argument that we do it by force as well just in our colonies not on the mainland. The french, germans and english played that game too both under the crown and during other forms of government. Bound to fail is hard to say, really it's more like if they fail to keep the general population happy enough or otherwise scared enough. Gorby was a marxist and had he of been more of a stalinist there either would of been a nuclear war with the US or any internal upheaval would of been crushed. A big part of the coup had to do with many internals not thinking gorby was enough of a stalinist hardliner and was letting the USSR break up. the thing is that was absolutely right, he was loosening the iron grip on the country. In the end it was his refusal to crush dissent that led to the coup. As much as I don't like reagan era policy, compared to the last president we had I think the outcome might very well have been a nuclear war had W been running the show in the 80s. It was more complicated than what our media told us, we were told we made the russians do what they were told by us by way of our nice cars and the star wars program or any other way for us to propagandize came down to a failure to do exactly what the chinese did and that same year and that was rule with a iron fist. Not saying it is just and moral in anyway. So far all types of governments have failed at one time or another. Despite some grand visions of the industrial revolution being spurned by the US in 1776 it had more to do with the Inclosure acts in england years before. A very stripped down account of this was that much arable land that was primarily used to graze animals was converted into farm lots that were growing food crops. This led to a population boom but it also lead to a new class of labor who was had no land and provided labor for cottage industry and later for industrial labor. Yes, this was private property and could be called a capitalist reform in a sense. There's a lot more to it though. that's another long ass post and my wrist hurts. good discussion though, it's good that we're all thinking, as many problems as this society has we are pretty free in a lot of ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 yes you are.that the upwardly moving standard of living in communist UUSR was in no small part fueled by the blood of tens of millions and the forced labor of many millions more. yes, I can make the same argument for the US. Wage slavery, share croppers, prison labor within our own mainland borders and then the exploitation of workers either in US colonies or outside of them in the 3rd world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 yes, I can make the same argument for the US. Wage slavery, share croppers, prison labor within our own mainland borders and then the exploitation of workers either in US colonies or outside of them in the 3rd world. Don't forget about regular old-fashioned slavery as well as "wage slavery". Not going to Google this now, but pretty sure that "free" labor played a significant role in the U.S.'s early economic success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted February 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 somebody else wasnt paying attention in honors history. Slavery was expensive not free. It was an economically dead idea even before the war of northern agression:biggthump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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