economy viewpoint - POLITICAL

[shawndoggy]

Ironically the stimulus checks likely went to paying late mortgages or credit card bills... fattening the banks.. and the contractors who built those houses, and the realtors who sold them and the carpet/tile/kitchen/remodel guys who got paid when homeowners took out seconds, and the boat/rv/powertoy sellers who made out big, and 10000 other little retailers who helped Johnny taxpayer accumulate that crushing credit card debt....

Fixed it for ya :)

[Dr D]

So which other country will this business man choose to start a business??? Sweden??

sounded to me like he wasn't starting another business just shacking up at the beach house in aruba.

In atlas shrugged the producer industries all shut down and disappeared and the economy ground to a halt. interesting read.

We are for sure a consumer society. The answer lies in breaking the bankers hold on our lives and redeveloping local economies. check out Republic magazine online. (note I did not say republican magazine:eplus2:)

In my book politicians are all the same and they work for the people who are actively enslaving the rest of us.

[bobdea]

ATLAS SHRUGGED by Ayne Rand

Its a must read to understand the concepts described herein:biggthump

ideological fiction, would be as if I were to post a bible story concerning David and going "SEEEEEEEE! MONARCHY WORKS!@!!!!!!!!!"

You free market theorist ought to read the works of Adam Smith not just quote him. Maybe some Jefferson too.

BTW, even Greenspan is now saying free market theory does not work.

[Dr D]

http://www.givemeliberty.org/

http://www.preferredservices.org/NonconsensualTaking.html

http://www.republicmagazine.com/

http://www.restoretherepublic.com/

[Dr D]

ideological fiction, would be as if I were to post a bible story concerning David and going "SEEEEEEEE! MONARCHY WORKS!@!!!!!!!!!"

You free market theorist ought to read the works of Adam Smith not just quote him. Maybe some Jefferson too.

BTW, even Greenspan is now saying free market theory does not work.

Well if the idealized fiction was to soft for you try Objectivist Epistimology by the same author

Its a philosophy and like any other it can't be yours completely because you aren't the author. Science is fine be a scientist, Art is fine be an artist, philosophy is fine be a philosopher but you will never be whole until you learn to balance the three.

Big fan of jefferson by the way. Thought Greenspan was a hack.

[Dr D]

even Greenspan is now saying free market theory does not work.

He's just trying to perpetuate the myth that we actually have a free market system.

This is the guy who has run the federal reserve system for years and many presidents. He is the problem not the solution.

you can't have a free market without real money (nonexistent since 1933)

no one is more easily enslaved than one who thinks he is free

[John Gilmour]

Fixed it for ya :)

as a coupon... I certainly would make an effort to direct it away from construction as we are overbuilt as it is...

The construction economy has to constrict... it got too big too fast.

Service jobs that also stimulate the need for education might be targets.

Certainly vocational programs for the underclasses would help.

But putting any more money into construction services and banking is just pouring money down the same drain.

Also educational loans should have been targeted more.... and not higher education- but basic literacy programs and the like... otherwise.. people who might be forced into construction jobs and service jobs which do not require high levels of literacy are trapped.

Construction takes real planning skills on behalf of the GC' architect's etc... and those people can be quickly retrained for other employment. The bricklayers- form fillers, sheet rockers,,, out there- they could use a boost too. Since construction is the hardest hit in terms of layoffs- those are the people that specifically need to be targeted for retraining. They should get some form of educational loans with reasonable interest rates- and a trajectory for success and end job if they stick with the program. An unemployed resident of the USA not engaged in a job or education... is a real cost to society and its other members.

A stimulus check is like bailing out your college student daughter who over spent and is about to default on her credit cards... its a pay more now... or pay a lot more later type of thing (higher interest rates for mortgages - enhancing banks position).. The issue is that your daughter spends the stimulus money on moving to a smaller dwelling, and investing in a resume service and head hunter... and to stop using her credit until she makes enough to warrant using CC's again.

The last thing you want is her to do with a stimulus check is to just pay off some credit cards and recharge them up to the previous balances next month... you also wouldn't want her to stay where she is ..and use it for her rent.

[bobdea]

http://www.givemeliberty.org/

http://www.preferredservices.org/NonconsensualTaking.html

http://www.republicmagazine.com/

http://www.restoretherepublic.com/

the far right is proving it's self to be a tool of the neocons.

this guy spell it out fairly well http://gilesbowkett.blogspot.com/2009/01/fundamental-problem-with-libertarianism.html

We have people that cry about how terrible our government (which it is) but then they the neocons and libertarians try to solve this by giving it to the people who control the most wealth to dismantle it.

The gaping flaw in this is that we can fix the federal government, we can't fix that private sector because it's goals are not always the direct well being of the people who it interacts.

So, for the government:

The approach should be, how do we fix it?

Not, how do we destroy it?

[bobdea]

Well if the idealized fiction was to soft for you try Objectivist Epistimology by the same author

Its a philosophy and like any other it can't be yours completely because you aren't the author. Science is fine be a scientist, Art is fine be an artist, philosophy is fine be a philosopher but you will never be whole until you learn to balance the three.

Big fan of jefferson by the way. Thought Greenspan was a hack.

man, those fact things get in the way of ayn rand's theories, atlas shrugged was at best a shot at the new deal.

Jefferson, me too. The guy realized that one of biggest enemies of the people were the consentration of power. Corporations, banks and government. It kill me that the vast majority of conservatives be them Right libertarians or neocons strictly focus on the government part of it.

Nike's rights exceed that of yours but yet can't really be punished for crimes we'd be put in the electric chair for.

Adam Smith a big influence on Rand, even in the wealth of nations he says that the division of labor will turn the common man into as much of a idiot as possible. His solution was that governments had to create a environment of liberty for markets to work. He also had issues with bankers BTW.

[Dr D]

the far right is proving it's self to be a tool of the neocons.

this guy spell it out fairly well http://gilesbowkett.blogspot.com/2009/01/fundamental-problem-with-libertarianism.html

We have people that cry about how terrible our government (which it is) but then they the neocons and libertarians try to solve this by giving it to the people who control the most wealth to dismantle it.

The gaping flaw in this is that we can fix the federal government, we can't fix that private sector because it's goals are not always the direct well being of the people who it interacts.

So, for the government:

The approach should be, how do we fix it?

Not, how do we destroy it?

This is new and different but then so are you Bob:biggthump

Neocons and Libertarians couldn't be more different.

It is my personal view that the powers that be use politics to keep us fighting with each other so we don't see the big shaft they are shoving up our collective asses.

generally speaking most people regardless of their political affiliation, are upset about the same things. They just can't agree who to blame it on:eplus2:

the approach is definitely how do we fix it!

restore the government power to the people where it rightly belongs.

BUT.... If our petitions to government are met with silence then perhaps its Declaration time again.

[Dr D]

man, those fact things get in the way of ayn rand's theories, atlas shrugged was at best a shot at the new deal.

Jefferson, me too. The guy realized that one of biggest enemies of the people were the consentration of power. Corporations, banks and government. It kill me that the vast majority of conservatives be them Right libertarians or neocons strictly focus on the government part of it.

Nike's rights exceed that of yours but yet can't really be punished for crimes we'd be put in the electric chair for.

quote]

Philosophy isn't actuality its reality , as in your own!

I don't get where you are coming from on Libertarians being right. Ron Paul isn't what you would call a fan of Bankers or Corporations (special interests) Reblicrats on the other hand are both completely controlled by special interests (read big corps )

As a former Republican in my younger and less informed youth I can say that the right wing views Libertarians as being moderate and worse on some issues particulary social issues. The Far right protects big business for sure but so does the left. Often through the same lobbyists. This problem is not solvable at the party level its only solveable by enough people getting pissed off and standing up to government excess and tyranny be it social, economical or what have you.

Who was it that said the amount of government tyranny that can be quietly withstood by an average man is exactly how much we will get

[bobdea]

Where I get libertarians as right wing is that most that identify as libertarians tend to be pro-capitalist to a fault. I identify as a libertarian as well, but not with the values in the same order as those that usually call themselves libertarians in the US..

I have more in common with Ron Paul in most ways than any other politician that ran with either of the two parties in the last election but our divide on one issue is so immense that I could never let the guy run the country.

Unrestrained corporate power by way of a totally unregulated market is a real danger to everyone.

If corporations as we know them did not exist and even sole proprietorships that they can leverage governments by threatening to move so they should not have to pay fines or taxes and have the said state bend over and take it from them then I'd not have this issue.

Look at what IBM is doing right now to the state of new york....

I'm best classified as a left libertarian.

It started with a feeling of thinking about individual rights and matured when I found stuff by John Dewey and went from there.

[Kent]

Bob - With all due respect, your post is extremely scary.

The reality is that 40% of Americans do not pay ANY income tax, but are able to decide how the other 60%'s money is spent through the election process.

85% of the wealth in the US is now owned by people over the age of 55....some are very liberal and some are very conservative.

If the tax burden continues to grow, what do you think will happen?

Guess what? If I were 55 and had ample money to spend, I'd pack up and get to a sunny warm place.

That is the reality of our current situation....and with aging baby boomers.

It should also be noted that in the past 10 years, the job growth has come from small business, not large corporate growth. While everybody is busy pointing the finger at regulation, the reality is that it's the regulation is what created the sub prime policy.

Just keeping this thread fair and balanced.

While I'm "all for" the stimulus package, it's shouldn't have 25% allocated to non-stimulating programs....as it's only increasing the tax burden for future generations.

No job is safe right now unless you work for the government....arrghh.

[skatha]

I'm a small business person, too....

FYI-your payroll taxes are the taxes you turn over to the government on behalf of your employees-it's their withholding and they'll get it back. To call that a tax against you is despicably disingenious....

You have to contribute to match their FICA contribution.

Yes, you have federal and state umemployment taxes.

Oh and yes, you'll have taxes to pay if you post a profit....I managed never to post a profit because I managed to either pay myself or my employees enough or have enough overhead expenses to have it work out my balance was zero at the end of the fiscal year

To pay someone to do your payroll and then complain about it is a crock. This guy performs a service you are incapable or unwilling to perform yourself. I did my own payroll and taxes because I am capable.

To complain about sales tax is a replay of complaining about payroll taxes-they are tax paid by someone else that you turn over to the comptroller of your state.

Perhaps instead of complaining about subsidizing the life of some welfare mother, maybe you should realize that your taxes provide the pay of someone in the military( people that people like you claim to love and support) or the upkeep of a highway or the bureau that sets the standard for what's considered to be safe drinking water.....

People like you set my teeth on edge-I guess you think paying taxes is unpatriotic, too.....

[trailertrash]

Skatha, Bob and Dr D where having a pretty civil discussion. Why do you have to take it to that level?

[bobdea]

If the tax burden continues to grow, what do you think will happen?

Guess what? If I were 55 and had ample money to spend, I'd pack up and get to a sunny warm place.

That is the reality of our current situation....and with aging baby boomers.

It should also be noted that in the past 10 years, the job growth has come from small business, not large corporate growth. While everybody is busy pointing the finger at regulation, the reality is that it's the regulation is what created the sub prime policy.

Just keeping this thread fair and balanced.

While I'm "all for" the stimulus package, it's shouldn't have 25% allocated to non-stimulating programs....as it's only increasing the tax burden for future generations.

No job is safe right now unless you work for the government....arrghh.

tax burden is low in this country.

banking crisis, too much regulation?

hardly, a big part of the issue was/is that banks in recent years found ways of skirting new deal law regarding how much capital of their they could reinvest in certain types of ventures. What happens is banks make a killing for awhile but when the economy slows they're suddenly over leveraged with smaller returns from these ultra complicated investment schemes. Then banks go bankrupt and the people who run them still make off with millions and don't give a ****, because they got theirs.

The issue I have is that people seem to think that in a free market everyone will do what is just and moral for long time growth when this is CLEARLY not the case. Executives often take the money and run, no secret.

[Jack M]

If corporations as we know them did not exist and even sole proprietorships that they can leverage governments by threatening to move so they should not have to pay fines or taxes and have the said state bend over and take it from them then I'd not have this issue.

Look at what IBM is doing right now to the state of new york....

Corporations and businesses do not pay taxes or fees. Customers and employees pay those taxes and fees by way of higher prices and/or lower salaries... and it has to fall more on the employees for the company to be competitive.

[Dr D]

Skatha, Bob and Dr D where having a pretty civil discussion. Why do you have to take it to that level?

uh yeah and I didn't write it I just posted it to stimulate a discussion on the current state of affairs.

for the record I don't think paying taxes is unpatriotic just unconstitutional at least in there current form and method. My biggest bitch I suspect is the same as yours getting undercut by medicare and insurance companies so badly that I have to raise my rates to stay in business. While big corporate hospitals are charging $5 an aspirin.

[Dr D]

Corporations and businesses do not pay taxes or fees. Customers and employees pay those taxes and fees by way of higher prices and/or lower salaries... and it has to fall more on the employees for the company to be competitive.

Big Corps and Big businesses don't pay taxes.

middle class micro businesses carry the lion's share of the tax load in this country.

[bobdea]

Big Corps and Big businesses don't pay taxes.

middle class micro businesses carry the lion's share of the tax load in this country.

Yes, he's right.

Big business either pays out massive amounts of pay based on short term performance, even poor performance sometimes instead of paying decent dividends or just plain HIDE profit offshore to avoid taxes. To top it off they will make threats to state governments saying they are going to move so the state actually cuts them a check and they still outsource the jobs or move anyway.

Ratheon

GM

IBM

the list goes on

where as the small and middle sized business can't compete with the big guys because the big guys get money to outsource.

think about this, we give tax breaks to outsource.

We subsidize the destruction of our economy.

[Kent]

tax burden is low in this country.

banking crisis, too much regulation?

hardly

Why do you say tax burden is low? That's like saying gas is low compared to Euro.....you can't compare apples to oranges as you need to consider the macro economics. i.e. -it's not the price of gas, it's the price of everything else which is impacted by gas. The other challenge with saying the tax burden is low it that 40% of American don't pay it. While they were goofy...Steve Forbes and Ross Perot has this one right. Flat tax on every income is the right answer. No deductions.

It mindboggles me that people think the government is smart enough to spend their money for them. I like to bring up the United Way because I'm very passionate about donating to them and also volunteering. There is noooooo way a government program can come remotely close to being as efficent as helping those in need. The same government programs operate on 50% admin cost while the United Way is less than 10%.

As for regulation...we can argue until the cows come home. The reality (just like your restaurant example) is that the bad banks go out of business. End of story. But...to be fair and balanced, I do think banks need "some" regulation and support, it's just a matter of how much.

[bobdea]

the chart above is from forbes.com

and given that the tax burden is much lower than when Ike was president, actually the entire rate is lower never mind the real world burden.

[Kent]

It's great you didn't read my post.....

The problem with your graphs is that they don't tell the entire story. Since we live in a "captialist" nation, you would think that our tax burden SHOULD BE THE LOWEST.

As for the tax rate per income....let me ask you an honest question. If you make over $250k per year, do you really think that you owe the US more money?

If so...could you explain to me what you THINK taxes pay for? (Honest question).

To me, taxes go to pay the general cost of having a government (military, infastructure, parks, etc). If everybody uses the roads, police service, fire service, etc.....then why would somone who makes more money pay for a larger percentage of the cost?

2nd honest question.....do you feel that Fin should tier the TD3 charge, based upon the income of his customers? So, in order to buy a TD3, you'll need to provide your income statement.

My point is that people who make over $250k may very well have a lower tax rate, but the actual taxes paid is larger than lower (under 50k) income earners.

K

[Dr D]

:eplus2:Easy Kent lets play fair

Logic isn't allowed in a fair fight with a lefty:lol:

[bobdea]

:eplus2:Easy Kent lets play fair

Logic isn't allowed in a fair fight with a lefty:lol:

actually it is, those nasty facts get in the way...

the real issue here is that the private sector and the folks in our government both democrat and republican have this idea that as much cost should be socialized as much as possible while privatizing profits.

Taxes don't often get spent they way they should and the people that should be paying don't pay as much as they should while others being small business and middle income individuals take a hard hit.

Don't think for second that I don't think the tax system here needs a overhaul.

If you're making over 250k you're using a larger percentage of infrastructure to make your money. Don't cry about it, you're doing good and are allowed to do because social system you're decrying.

Look at the places that have no social net like haiti, looks like a paradise

but the reality of the place is this

a flat tax is a joke in the terms most people want it, it would disadvantage the poor while only benefitting the high earners. Meanwhile driving many people in the middle incomes closer to the poverty line because social systems like schools will start costing more for local governments and they'd have to do direct taxes based on useage. This sounds fair on the surface but you end up with everyone losing in the end unless you're extremely well off. Many things that the progressive tax rates pay for are anti poverty measures like EIC and SSI, these inject money to people that actually do spend it on the very services the guys making 250K provide.

As poverty increases so do things like crime, among other nasty realities.

Much of your tax money in one way or another keeps the people that work for you able to work for you as well as able to purchase you products and services.

A flat tax COULD be alright with certain direct taxes instead, one that was used to pay for the first world war was a tax stock trading that has since been abolished. The problem is that people in the upper incomes cry when they get hit with direct taxes on things like that. People in the lower incomes do too and they are already are hit harder by direct taxes.

Things like a massive annual tax on cars based on size or whatever way the tax man can get you on, color, whatever.

Taxing stock trades, that's been done and works well and was abolished sometime after wwi was paid for.

Larger capital gains taxes.

Taxing employers more heavily.

The USPS charging based on what you receive, not just what you send.