Am I the only one who doesn't enjoy crowds?

[Dave ESPI]

SUPERBOWL SUNDAY.

8:30 am till 10 was carvers dream.

10- 4:00 the hill was awash with 300+ ski racers and a multitude of slow moving families and people of various skill levels and courtesy.

It was elements for disaster. Carving while being fast moving has a slow rate of descent but uses a lot of real-estate on the hill and tends to require us to "lock-in" with a path for it to not make us look like goofs out there.

It also presented issues with people zipping by at Mach 4 on skis using people like slalom poles, and is deadly to us carvers when they are not looking for us moving across the hill at a near 90 degree angle.

Me, I hung up the carver and got out the soft boot stuff. I stayed late, and around 5:00 the mountain was a ghost town.

6:30 under the lights, Out came the hardboots again, and while it was a tad skied off, it was still quite carveable and you just had to pick your turns better and having done a few runs earlier in softgear I was able to scope out the trouble spots.

Cail was up earlier in the day and there was a few other HB riders there. Im sure they will agree that it is brutal trying to lay anything down unless you go where people are not at, and it was difficult to find such in the 40 degree sunny weather.

When it gets too crowded, I put away the carve gear. It's just not worth the risk and there has been a few accidents and also a few near misses before that I've been privy to and/or in some way part of but not necessarily at fault for.

[BadBrad]

Yeah, I'm thinking that I should get some skis for when it gets crowded later in the day. I am not comfortable carving big arcs across the trail when there are other people around, so I revert back to skidded turns. I think I'd feel more comfortable on skis making the same sort of turns that the majority of the skiers out there are doing.

Plus, my 18-month old boy will probably be learning to ski next year and I'll likely be on skis while teaching him.

[Dan]

I hate the crowds and the steeze monkeys. It's tough because I can always make shallow turns down the fall line and go faster than 96% of the other people on the hill, and I only need a 6-10 foot lane for that. I do that sometimes when I get frustrated or start to get scared at the density level.

But usually I want to make fat turns and get low, (or at least try). It's tough...sometimes I'll get an open slope, and I can do what I want as long as I keep half an eye up hill. Best answer I've found so far is concentrating on mid-week riding and spring riding -- January/February powder days are the worst.

[BryanZ]

Just like riding a motorcycle, I like to go faster then everybody else so I control the situation. I don't mind crowds at all. I usually don't have a problem avoiding them at all.

My main gripe is people resting at the other side of a drop off. I seriously injured someone one time on a black slope. I must have been going 50 mph, trying to get some air. Nobody was on the slope, I hit this guy dead on because I didn't see him until it was too late. I was forced to put my shoulder into him like a football player. Guy couldn't breath for about 3 minutes and I hurt my shoulder pretty bad. He was maybe 150lbs where as I was around 210. Would have made an NFL greatest hits video easily.

Other then that, never had a serious problem with crowds. I try to avoid the easier slopes.

[SWriverstone]

Good responses. And yeah Rob, I guess I'm pretty good at the rhetorical questions. :) But hey, sometimes it's good therapy, right? LOL

I've gotta say I'm constantly amazed at how (at the east coast resorts I've been to) there appears to be ZERO enforcement of safety of any kind. Why is this?

Some say "Because there's no way to enforce anything." That's complete BS, because the resort has one incredibly powerful weapon: the lift pass! Everyone on the hill gets funneled through that one choke point (the lift) and aggro-idiots would be EASY to apprehend. I guarantee if the resorts started making examples of people by yanking their lift passes, word would get around fast not to screw around!

Our local resort appears to have about 200 employees/volunteers in/on/around the mountain every time I go...but all they ever seem to be doing is teaching or just enjoying the slopes themselves. Seems like a *little* effort could be put into tagging people riding like idiots. I'd really like to hear the "resort take" on all this from anyone who's worked for a resort.

I did have a fantastic morning today at Whitetail(Monday morning). Got there at 8 to find the place a ghost town...perfect! I got in 15-17 runs up 'til 11am, and on almost every run I literally had the entire slope—top to bottom—to myself. WOOHOO!

Of course the down side is that—freed from the burden of being in constant defense mode—I carved so hard and so long that I almost blew my knee out from sheer exertion and fatigue. :o

I'm trying hard not to have unrealistic expectations for Aspen next week—'cause everything I've heard makes me think I'll have ACRES of EMPTY pristine groomers to myself. LOL If I ever find myself besieged by straightliners on an Aspen slope, I'm gonna call BS on the whole Colorado experience. (LOL—just kidding.)

Scott

[jpenn]

Hi - thought I'd put in my two cents. If you go to your local hill enough, you get to know the patterns. Since I have regular hours at work, I can't get to the hill weekday mornings. But the weekend masses don't usually show up until 11:00 +/-, so that leaves us about three hours of carving time on Sat and Sunday mornings. Plus, all weekday nights are pretty nice, too, as the crowds thin after the buses leave, and Skisundown has an evening groom (oh oh, secret's out). Therefore, 7:30 till 10:00 is usually pretty sweet, too.

Magic Mt was just shy of epic yesterday. Magician was open...need I say more? - jp

[carvedog]

Seems like a *little* effort could be put into tagging people riding like idiots. I'd really like to hear the "resort take" on all this from anyone who's worked for a resort.

Like paintball guns???

[ak_rider]

Our local resort appears to have about 200 employees/volunteers in/on/around the mountain every time I go...but all they ever seem to be doing is teaching or just enjoying the slopes themselves. Seems like a *little* effort could be put into tagging people riding like idiots. I'd really like to hear the "resort take" on all this from anyone who's worked for a resort.

Scott

well as far as employees tagging people while on the mtn, if they're enjoying the slopes themselves, i assume this is when they're off the clock, and really, who wants to "work" when they're not getting paid. and the ones who are teaching are being paid to do just that..teach. the people in the class paid money to get a lesson, it's really not fair to the clients to take thei rtime to go tag dangerous people.

i do agree there should be some sort of way to identify the idiots.

if you don't want crowds, you should get up to AK right now. it's amazing how dead things get when there's a volcanic eruption looking.

[John E]

My main gripe is people resting at the other side of a drop off. I seriously injured someone one time on a black slope. I must have been going 50 mph, trying to get some air. Nobody was on the slope, I hit this guy dead on because I didn't see him until it was too late. I was forced to put my shoulder into him like a football player. Guy couldn't breath for about 3 minutes and I hurt my shoulder pretty bad. He was maybe 150lbs where as I was around 210. Would have made an NFL greatest hits video easily.

Guess whose fault this was. Though he shouldn't have stopped where he did it is your responsibility to be in control. What if he had fallen there instead of just deciding to stop? Would that have made the situation any different?

I have skied / snowboarded for 40 years and have never collided with another person - and that's no accident. Good thing the other person didn't get an attorney. As I read your account, it sounds like you have the entitled attitude. You are the type of person that ski areas would like to get off their slopes. 210 lbs going 50 mph over a blind rise? You have a gripe?

[Neil Gendzwill]

My main gripe is people resting at the other side of a drop off.

My main gripe is with idiots launching off blind drop-offs without a spotter.

[queequeg]

Guess whose fault this was. Though he shouldn't have stopped where he did it is your responsibility to be in control. What if he had fallen there instead of just deciding to stop? Would that have made the situation any different?

I have skied / snowboarded for 40 years and have never collided with another person - and that's no accident. Good thing the other person didn't get an attorney. As I read your account, it sounds like you have the entitled attitude. You are the type of person that ski areas would like to get off their slopes. 210 lbs going 50 mph over a blind rise? You have a gripe?

Errmmmm. I think this is up for interpretation. While it is true that the uphill skier is supposed to avoid downhill skiers, it is only possible to avoid people that cannot be seen. That is why the skiers code also indicates that you should not stop where you cannot be seen (eg: under a headwall or behind a knoll/roller). Even if you fall or are injured in such an area, it is your responsibility to move to the side of the trail or a more visible area as quickly as possible. I hate stopping at headwalls, and yeah, you shouldn't hop them without knowing for sure that nobody is directly beneath them. I think the best way to deal with headwalls is to make sure you are traveling across the fall line when you get to them, so that you don't have to stop but can prevent an accident if somebody is camped out underneath the lip, waiting to get skewered.

If I fall under a headwall I get up as quickly as possible, or let myself slide downhill a ways so as to avoid being landed upon.

If you've skied/snowboarded for 40 years and have never been in a single accident, you're lucky, the vast majority of people out there don't have the same luck. Skill and caution are a major part of avoiding accidents but you have never been in a single accident you're lucky, as anyone who has ever been hit from behind by an out of control meat-rocket will tell you. I've even been it in the friggin liftline by out-of controll skiers at full speed ... more than once!

[SWriverstone]

Yeah, ditto what Queequeg said. I've been clobbered from behind when I was doing absolutely nothing unpredictable (and was cruising at a moderate pace). It's pretty unsettling.

Like I said before, there ought to be more "patrolling" by the ski patrol. It's interesting I haven't heard a single person say "They give warnings at our resort." This suggests the dominant philosophy among resort owners is..."Let 'em work it out themselves. Survival of the fittest." Sounds pretty stupid to me.

Are there any cases where a resort has been sued when someone got clobbered? Or is there some federal law that completely exonerates all resorts from anything bad that happens?

Don't get me wrong...I hate over-zealous regulation as much as anyone...but there are times (like crowded weekends) when a line has got to be drawn.

I'd LOVE to see resorts do one little thing—just one itty-bitty, tiny, easy-peasy little thing: hang a giant banner over every lift that says:

EVERYONE BELOW YOU HAS THE RIGHT OF WAY.

Because almost nobody I've ever asked knows this...and the resorts barely attempt to make people aware of this. (Most places bury this in a list of fine print on a 12" square skier's code sign stuck in some out-of-the-way place where nobody sees it.)

Scott

[carvedog]

I have skied / snowboarded for 40 years and have never collided with another person - and that's no accident. Good thing the other person didn't get an attorney.

+1

My main gripe is with idiots launching off blind drop-offs without a spotter.

+2

Errmmmm. I think this is up for interpretation.

..........

If you've skied/snowboarded for 40 years and have never been in a single accident, you're lucky, the vast majority of people out there don't have the same luck.

Skill and caution are a major part of avoiding accidents but you have never been in a single accident you're lucky, as anyone who has ever been hit from behind by an out of control meat-rocket will tell you. I've even been it in the friggin liftline by out-of controll skiers at full speed ... more than once!

No interpretation necesary. If you can't see your landing or don't have a spotter.......Don't jump. Period. Ever.

oldacura didn't say he had never had an accident. He said he had never collided with someone, small distinction I know. I too have been hit in the lift line, but in my 22 years of riding have never hit someone else. At least not hard. I did bump a guy and gave him a bear hug and we slid down the hill together but neither one of us fell and were fine.

I have also been hit by two skiers and one other snowboarder. Their fault. I was downhill and in full view making very predictable turns each time.

You seem pretty responsible qq, but really there is little room for discussion on this.

Bryanz - please reevaluate how you go down the mtn. That sense of entitlement mentioned shows through and is the key to you getting hurt badly or someone else. Life is short. Slow down, clear your lz and have fun.

[trailertrash]

Say you are carving and you come over a roller mid carve and there is a person sitting on the other side. When carving your view can be a lot shorter because you aren't as tall as others. You can't stop and hit. How is this different from jumping?

Is it me or is this sort of a gray area? I don't know the right answer, just throwing it out there.

[carvedog]

Say you are carving and you come over a roller mid carve and there is a person sitting on the other side. When carving your view can be a lot shorter because you aren't as tall as others. You can't stop and hit. How is this different from jumping?

Is it me or is this sort of a gray area? I don't know the right answer, just throwing it out there.

Sorry John I am a ****ing nazi about this, but if you hit someone like that, you were travelling too fast for the trail, conditions, whatever. If you can't vary your line enough to miss, you were too locked in for the conditions as well.

:nono:

My two cents.

[John E]

Are there any cases where a resort has been sued when someone got clobbered? Or is there some federal law that completely exonerates all resorts from anything bad that happens?

Scott

In Colorado, there is a state law that basically exempts ski areas from any lawsuits. There have been a few incidents where a ski area employee was unquestionably at fault and I'll bet the ski area paid.

To clarify my earlier statement. I too have been at fault in a "collision" but it was the low speed "bear hug" type where no one was hurt and I took full blame.

Again, if another person is below a rise for any reason (poor judgement or having fallen or whatever) and you collide with them, it is your fault.

The guys I ride with don't like this situation but they wouldn't blame the downhill rider if a collision occured. How we conduct ourselves on the slopes reflects on all carvers. We are a "tribe" and must think about how our conduct reflects on the rest of us.

[SWriverstone]

Sorry to keep beating this drum...but in every other sport I've done (hang gliding, whitewater kayaking, motorcycling, climbing, etc.) there is a BIG emphasis on safety. You don't do sports like these without taking classes where safety is a big part of the course.

Even driving a car...most of us (at some point in our youth) had to take a class and have driver safety pounded into our heads before getting our license.

Why are skiing and snowboarding different? This just baffles the hell out of me. It is wide open—no emphasis on safety whatsoever.

It just seems like there's some idiotic, underlying assumption that because so many people do it, there's no need for safety training.

How many folks here who teach lessons actually spend more than a passing mention on safety? Do you sit down with your students and describe possible scenarios? (Like someone being stopped below a roller, or trails merging, etc.) Do you quiz them on various situations and who has the right-of-way? Do you make sure they know the skier's code? I'm guessing not, because most instructors probably think "I'm not getting paid to teach safety—I'm paid to teach people how to ski/snowboard."

Scott

[trailertrash]

How many folks here who teach lessons actually spend more than a passing mention on safety? Do you sit down with your students and describe possible scenarios? (Like someone being stopped below a roller, or trails merging, etc.) Do you quiz them on various situations and who has the right-of-way? Do you make sure they know the skier's code? I'm guessing not, because most instructors probably think "I'm not getting paid to teach safety—I'm paid to teach people how to ski/snowboard."

Scott

Not only are the instructors not teaching the Code they aren't following it either at my home mtn.

[carvedog]

How many folks here who teach lessons actually spend more than a passing mention on safety? Do you sit down with your students and describe possible scenarios? (Like someone being stopped below a roller, or trails merging, etc.) Do you quiz them on various situations and who has the right-of-way? Do you make sure they know the skier's code?

Scott

I absolutely quiz my students about their knowledge of Skier Responsibility Code. And in examining situations for AASI I have failed candidates who couldn't cite the entire code.

As mentioned before I am a fascist about safety on the hill. Unabashedly.

I have been first or nearly first on scene at numerous collisions. One with compound tib/fib fracture. One riccochet collision with tree complete with bruised heart arrythmia and unconsciousness with collapsed lung. One with major concussion and mild (??) brain damage - he broke his helmet.

There is just absolutely no reason not to put safety first.

I'm guessing not, because most instructors probably think "I'm not getting paid to teach safety—I'm paid to teach people how to ski/snowboard."

Can't speak to the ice coast but out here if you aren't teaching safety too ( and first), you won't last long. And I will completely call out and bust other instructors who are not being safe with their classes whatever size they are.

It is also the primary objective of AASI/PSIA. Safety, fun, learning.

You can't learn if you don't feel safe.

[trailertrash]

As mentioned before I am a fascist about safety on the hill. Unabashedly.

[Erik J]

When I was about 17 or 18 yrs old on a trip to Sugarbush, NH I had a reality check.

Total hero snow, feeling invincible, flying down a black trail littered with rollers. I came flying over a roller blind to find a little girl in a pink ski suit stopped right on the other side.

I put on the brakes as hard as I possibly could but it wasn't enough....I plowed into the little girl board first. I knocked hat, gloves, skis, poles, goggles off of her. She doesn't make a sound for a minute, eventually starts to scream and cry, her father proceeds to rip me a new one. Turns out the girl is OK, but the whole time we're stopped we're still behind that roller. I'm trying to tell the father that we should move but he just wants to kill me and is screaming his lungs out at me. Skiers are still flying by, inches from pummeling all three of us.

I was wrong and deserved an @ss reaming. That little girl should not have been there, but she was and I hit her.

I don't go over anything blind anymore.

[RDY_2_Carve]

1. Move to New Mexico
   
2. Do not board Christmas-New Years
   
3. Do not board on Spring Break
   
4. Enjoy zero lift lines and empty runs all day long pretty much the entire season
   

:)

And in the summer you can skate our nice drainage ditches!

[Dave ESPI]

**** Happens.

I ride in control, People I teach know the rules, I make sure of it, and I spend a good 10 minutes per hour lesson going over the do and dont's of trail safety and right of way as well as the dangers. It is the other people who are the ones who make me nervous.

Expect the Unexpected.

Speed or no speed, things can go wrong on a green trail just as easily as on a diamond. We can argue right and wrong, and use of a spotter, where to sit and not to, all day long, but truth be told, it all boils down to common sense, and the lack there of at the least oppertune moments.

The more people you get into an area, the greater the chances become for an incident. Conversely, this can also work the otherway to when there is not people on the hill and doing thngs they should not be doing because people are not around, or are "unexpected" when they happen upon them in their path.

It is 100% possible to be completely in control, and still become a victim of circumstance in anything we do in life.

[Coloradoking]

howelsen hill on little kid race day is scary like nothing else, we try to train and we're literally doing slalom on our 185 GS's between herds of small children; ive had alot of close calls with everyone between coaches and small children that failed to check uphill as they got off of the poma. we have a nice knoll on the right side of howie we set courses over, ive shot that thing in a course and gotten inches from an unsupervised kid that decided it would be fun to run the lower half of our course. sometimes this is just life; make sure you're always in control, and when you're not, stop and get your bearings.

[shawndoggy]

At my home mtn we've got a steep, but narrow run that's great for carving... probably 1400 vertical feet, barely any flat. Two problems I've encountered:

1. The people who have the belief that they are fast so they must be good, and that because they are good they own the trail, ergo, they have license to straightline you from behind. Or worse, they try to zip around while I'm on my heelside. Yes, I look uphill in the turns, but the speed differential can be such that they can sneak in.

2. The uttlerly clueless, who will be stopped on the side of the hill and jump out right in front of you, sometimes not looking, sometimes after having seen me and doing it anyway (can't decide which is worse). In the latter case, I suppose that as the uphill skier, it's my fault. This happened to me just this past sunday, where I am riding past a high school race team on the side of the run, and just as I am coming by, they start jumping out at me. Ended up doing the high speed bearhug/boot touch and then we both rode out of it... but it was a scary moment.