Why do you want to ride blacks?

[SWriverstone]

One thing puzzles me a bit...several people have commented that blacks = more speed. No doubt, if you bomb straight down...but interestingly, I've seen good carvers on black slopes...and they actually weren't going that fast. Their perception might have been one of great speed...but in reality they were doing so many tight turns that it was impossible to go very fast.

I go pretty darn fast when carving a wider, less steep blue...because I'm just tracking across the hill more and my turns are much longer and wider...so I'm able to sustain a lot more speed.

So it seems like speed is more a function of how many turns you do and how tight those turns are.

Someone also commented that it's easier to do linked, laid-out turns on steeper slopes. This makes sense...except...I saw someone (don't remember who it was 'cause I didn't know them) at Okemo once who coasted across a long flat to the lift...they were NOT going very fast...and right next to the lift they suddenly dropped and did a laid-out 360 and popped back up again.

Aside from suddenly feeling incredibly small and lame by comparison, this was a vivid demonstration that neither speed nor a steep slope are essential to do laid-out turns!

Scott

[KingCrimson]

Scott- give this a read, stolen from the 'Almanac

"

Pitch and Terrain

As you get better, you will get slower. That's because you will be able to control your speed by getting the board high on edge and making tighter turns, which generates centripetal force that counteracts gravity and slows you down - think of it as "engine braking". Beginners often accelerate beyond their control because they can't make tight, high-angled turns. As you get slower, you will need to advance to steeper terrain in order to maintain the speed necessary to carve. Be aware that as you get better and slower, people are more likely to run into you from behind because you will be traveling down the fall line more slowly."

[ARCrider]

carving uber steep blacks demands proper form

ultimate test to see if you are on your game

when you are you know it

its just too easy to carve blues with poor form and get away with it

and you end up thinking you're good until you go to a black

off topic

racing is another way to up the ante and improve your skills

[carvedog]

Scott- give this a read, stolen from the 'Almanac

"

Pitch and Terrain

As you get better, you will get slower. That's because you will be able to control your speed by getting the board high on edge and making tighter turns, which generates centripetal force that counteracts gravity and slows you down - think of it as "engine braking". Beginners often accelerate beyond their control because they can't make tight, high-angled turns. As you get slower, you will need to advance to steeper terrain in order to maintain the speed necessary to carve. Be aware that as you get better and slower, people are more likely to run into you from behind because you will be traveling down the fall line more slowly."

That might apply to one or two types of turn only. Maybe that is what you meant.

[KingCrimson]

Just thought it was pertinent information from the Almanac.

[Recon]

Even thought I'm a natural born risk taker/ i do not feel the need to ride black runs at this time.

On a free-ride board ---Sure

Maybe someday when my skill level has increased./ I will long for blacks

When riding Blacks at my intermediate skill level on a carving board / all I'm doing is developing some bad habit / translating into bad form/ and waring my A$$ out early in the day!

I'm happy with a more gentle slope & should I need more speed I just switch to a very long board/ Problem solved

For me riding Black Diamonds/ is just like dating drop-dead gorgeous women

Challenging yes /exciting You bet / but sure to end in disaster!!!!!!!!!

Painful in one way or another!

Slopes------ give me gentle

Lady's-------I will take average

[Erik J]

Green run = coffee

Blue run = a fat doob

Black run = Crack laced with PCP, YEEEEEEHAAAAAAWWWW!!!

In addition to what everyone else has said, black runs give me more room to play with gravity. Once you go, uh......nevermind.

[Gossamer]

Black, Blue and Green runs? All the runs I go down here at Powder Mountain are WHITE and FLUFFY !:p Sorry, I could not stop myself.

[SWriverstone]

Alright Recon! Another Bluester!

I swear I don't mean this in a critical way...but it sure seems that everyone who rides blacks seems to think there's no more improvement they can make on a blue...that perhaps their technique has gotten so extraordinarily advanced that the only thing to do is go to steeper slopes. That true?

I suspect (but obviously don't know) that the "real truth" is people get **just good enough** on blues to go to blacks, where suddenly it's a whole new ballgame.

To echo what others have said...I can get down a steep black...but I'm sure as hell not gonna carve it—because I can't! (I'll just skid all the way down.)

I'm guessing a lot of the expert carvers here have been carving for well over a decade...right? I mean, I'm a fit, coordinated person with excellent balance. This is my 4th season carving (well, really my third since I barely got out last season)...with an average of 40-50 days on the slopes in the good seasons...and I don't remotely consider myself good enough to ride blacks...and I don't think it's because I haven't been pushing myself.

So just trying to figure out the disconnect here.

Scott

[Daneille]

I swear I don't mean this in a critical way...but it sure seems that everyone who rides blacks seems to think there's no more improvement they can make on a blue...that perhaps their technique has gotten so extraordinarily advanced that the only thing to do is go to steeper slopes. That true?

Another thing to consider is that after you spend a little time on the steeper runs you actually feel more relaxed on the blues. Even if your not riding blacks all that well, your perspective changes and you might be more willing push your boundries a bit on terrain that feels safer.

Daneille

[carvedog]

Just thought it was pertinent information from the Almanac.

Hey it's alright. But part of what I do on steeper runs ( I don't really care what color any of that stuff is - I rarely pay attention to circle, square , diamond or color) is go for a faster, cleaner line. Instead of doing fully laid out all the time. Dial it in until you can just feel your pant leg whirring on toeside without getting into the grind.

Do a few that way then open it up and do more of a downhill carve, then see if I can tighten one up and go back to a more finished turn. It's good fun. Still all carving. With one I am increasing the rate at which I go down the mountain. With the other I am travelling more at a steady pace all the time. Still fast but more across the fall line before transition. So the quote you gave seems a little out of context.

Scott - it is totally fine to just want to go cruise. If someone feels they have something to prove they will likely get the short end before long.

I truly love the challenge and adrenaline of steep stuff. Maybe that will appeal someday. I have taught many to go from medium steep to the next level, but you gotta want to do it. Simply following someone in complete control on a steeper run can be a revelation.

[Danked]

i know for sure that one of my boards simply wouldn't work on a blue run. at least not in a fun way. my 185 is easier to ride on a black run than a blue, not possible to carve on a green, unless it's 1 turn after every 200m of straight-lining...

going fast is just more fun for me. i think i hit 55-60 on my softboots last friday... it was a rush, i did that run at least another 5 times...

[kjl]

I swear I don't mean this in a critical way...but it sure seems that everyone who rides blacks seems to think there's no more improvement they can make on a blue...that perhaps their technique has gotten so extraordinarily advanced that the only thing to do is go to steeper slopes. That true?

Nope, I regularly switch back and forth between blues and blacks all day. Plenty of style and technique to be experimented with on the blues, and plenty of different style and technique to be experimented with on the blacks. Also, riding blacks or anything steep enough to be on the limit of what you can comfortably ride will markedly improve your riding on the blues.

I'm guessing a lot of the expert carvers here have been carving for well over a decade...right? I mean, I'm a fit, coordinated person with excellent balance. This is my 4th season carving (well, really my third since I barely got out last season)...with an average of 40-50 days on the slopes in the good seasons...and I don't remotely consider myself good enough to ride blacks...and I don't think it's because I haven't been pushing myself.

So just trying to figure out the disconnect here.

Well, if you haven't been trying to ride blacks, it may mean that you really aren't pushing yourself. I think you could carve blues every day for 50 years and you still wouldn't be "good enough" to carve down blacks. I was carving down blacks after a few years, I forget how many, and sometimes I could just barely hold it together and sometimes I crashed and burned, but eventually you start to get it down. I think that's partly from trying to ride blacks a fair amount and also following much better carvers than myself down runs that were too steep. Maybe I'd throw one or two carves down and end up with too much speed and have to scrub it a little, but after a few days or weeks or whatever, I'd start to be able to do it.

To go back to your original question of why I ride blacks: you know that awesome sense of satisfaction you used to get when you incrementally improved your ability to ride blues? One day you couldn't ride this run, but this time you just barely held it together: yeehaw! Or you usually just barely hold it together on this run, but this time you felt smooth and elegant and in control? Or, usually you can ride the run fine except for this one stupid section that is steeper or leans slightly left or right, and this time you managed to do it cleanly? If you no longer get that feeling on the blues, you can get them on the blacks!

But there's nothing wrong with cruising on blues. I still probably spend the majority of my carving time on blues working on stuff that I can't concentrate on when I'm trying not to crap my pants on the blacks, like cross under turns, or eliminating arm movement, or feeding the dollar, or any number of other things that are fun to work on.

[shawndoggy]

To echo what others have said...I can get down a steep black...but I'm sure as hell not gonna carve it—because I can't! (I'll just skid all the way down.)

I'm guessing a lot of the expert carvers here have been carving for well over a decade...right? I mean, I'm a fit, coordinated person with excellent balance. This is my 4th season carving (well, really my third since I barely got out last season)...with an average of 40-50 days on the slopes in the good seasons...and I don't remotely consider myself good enough to ride blacks...and I don't think it's because I haven't been pushing myself.

So just trying to figure out the disconnect here.

Scott

I'd like to think I match that description. Snowboarded since 1986 (saved the paper route money for a Performer Elite 150 in 9th grade) but only have about 30 days+/- on a carving rig. My form can certainly use some work (and I am working on it), but I can make the fine line all the way down.

FWIW and all that.

[shawndoggy]

Simply following someone in complete control on a steeper run can be a revelation.

+ a million.

[Fastskiguy]

Perfect technique on the blues=perfect on blacks but less margin for error. Testing your technique is a reason to ride blacks, are you precise enough? You can run blues all day in search of the "perfect run" but it gets old after awhile....for most. It's the dedicated flatlander who really understands!

[SWriverstone]

Also, riding blacks or anything steep enough to be on the limit of what you can comfortably ride will markedly improve your riding on the blues.

Yeah, good point.

Well, if you haven't been trying to ride blacks, it may mean that you really aren't pushing yourself. I think you could carve blues every day for 50 years and you still wouldn't be "good enough" to carve down blacks.

This may well be true. I don't like being on the edge of my abilities or pushing the envelope too hard. I like to take baby steps, and I have the patience to enjoy slow progress even if it takes years (partly because I'm also paddling, motorcycling, bicycling, hang gliding, flyfishing, etc...) But I do recognize that there's something to be said for pushing yourself.

I'm not comparing myself to snowboard racers (no way, not even close!)...but I think the kind of satisfaction I enjoy comes from the identical kind of inward, ever-finer focus that top racers apply every day.

People good enough to make the Olympic giant slalom team (I'd be willing to bet) aren't riding for the adrenaline. They're well past that. They've done it way too many times to continue getting that kind of buzz. No...what they're doing is fine-tuning every run...looking for every little molecule of improvement, especially when run time differences might be measured in hundredths of a second. At that level, they're examining every tenth of a second in each run for what went better, what went worse...then trying to duplicate it. It's a seriously "granular thing."

This is why a lot of people aren't cut out to be racers. It's not that they don't have the skill or talent...it's that they simply don't enjoy the endless repetition and Zen-like focus on microscopic detail.

Though I'll never be a snowboard racer, I was competitive in whitewater slalom on the national level and experienced that kind of minute focus...so I naturally bring that over to snowboarding.

Different strokes I guess! :)

Scott

[spil]

I guess I am in the blue camp. I would call myself a beginner/intermediate carver and probably and overall intermediate/advanced rider. I prefer to create the challenge myself on easier runs instead of forcing myself to be challenged by the terrain. I figure some of this is because I'm still a relatively new carver (3rd season, about 25 days on snow) and have a lot of technique to improve upon, so the blue runs are still plenty challenging for me. Although I do occasionally ride on blacks, mostly from the school of thought that the only way to get good on them is to ride them, I sort of feel like I am wasting my time, because I could be on a blue groomer practicing my carving and improving myself there. Also, it is more fun for me to be railing turns instead of skidding around. Where I ride (mostly Red River, NM), all the blacks are all moguled up, so I couldn't carve them even if I wanted to. There is one groomed black, but they only groom half of it, and every texan just /has/ to go down it to prove to their buddies that they can do a black ("Look, Ma, I can do it on my heelside the entire way down!"), so it gets very icy in about 5 minutes.

SW: Sort of OT, but how much does it cost to get a hanggliding setup? Do you need to get a light aircraft liscense or just take a few lesons? Do you have to be 18 to do it? I need something to do during the summers:biggthump

[Buell]

carving uber steep blacks demands proper form

ultimate test to see if you are on your game

when you are you know it

its just too easy to carve blues with poor form and get away with it

and you end up thinking you're good until you go to a black

I have found this to be exactly right. I see many carvers with many techniques happily and successfully riding green and blue runs. Many of them have no aspirations to ride steeper runs and can be very content with their technique. People who can ride the steeps have really worked to refine their riding.

Improving my riding is one of the reasons I am always testing myself on steeper runs.

The main reason though is the intense focus I experience riding slopes at my ability level. It is in part a suppression of fear, working to keep the mind silent. Other times the brain is repeating "you can do this, you can do this, you can do this" just so you can make it through each turn.

[b0ardski]

When I master the blues on a particular style of equipement, it's because I've pushed myself on the steeper terrain. When I get bored on steeper terrain it's time to learn to do it switch.

As much of a thrill as adrenelin is, conquering the learning curve is what ultimately leaves me satisfied:ices_ange

[b0ardski]

this is a good place to break 1000 posts:biggthump

[bumpyride]

Another thing to consider is that after you spend a little time on the steeper runs you actually feel more relaxed on the blues. Even if your not riding blacks all that well, your perspective changes and you might be more willing push your boundries a bit on terrain that feels safer.

Daneille

Very true. There's nothing like a double black bump run to make a blue seem pretty tame. Also helps you to realize it's no big thing to enter and exit a turn on autopilot.

[Cuban Carving Gooding]

Lots of good feedback on A great post.

I live in the Cleveland area I drive 1 1/2 hours and get about 500 vert(Peek and peak does not list vert).Its all blue but listed as A variety black included. I have fun on these runs and if not for the peek I would not be where I'm at today. I have fun on blues out west as well. But if I never rode the run I was afraid of at Alpine Vally,the Peek, Holiday Vally or Holeymont I would still be at thees resorts.I never would have gone west.

Speed is talked about in many posts.

I like the speed but its not what you think .Speed is not straitlineing.If you don't turn allot on blacks you will probably take flight.

The best part is you feel the speed even though your carving your a$$ off.

And because of your carving ability you slow down and control the run. A run at some point you thought you would never ride. Its the best feeling ever.

I find equal pleasure in steep narrow runs.It fun trying to see if i can get the turns in and stay out of the woods or rocks.

I admit steep bumps not my thing scares the stuff out of me. If its groomed ill run it.

[SWriverstone]

SW: Sort of OT, but how much does it cost to get a hanggliding setup? Do you need to get a light aircraft liscense or just take a few lesons? Do you have to be 18 to do it? I need something to do during the summers:biggthump

Hi Spil—I started a thread on learning to hang glide in the off-topic forum, so go check it out!

Scott

[Neil Gendzwill]

I swear I don't mean this in a critical way...but it sure seems that everyone who rides blacks seems to think there's no more improvement they can make on a blue...that perhaps their technique has gotten so extraordinarily advanced that the only thing to do is go to steeper slopes. That true?

Gawd, no. Blacks are just more fun, or rather a different kind of fun.

I don't like being on the edge of my abilities or pushing the envelope too hard.

I think if you're not falling a few times a day, you're probably not pushing enough.

There's nothing like a double black bump run to make a blue seem pretty tame. Also helps you to realize it's no big thing to enter and exit a turn on autopilot.

And there's one big difference - on a blue, you've got time to think and plan and work on technique. That's good. And on a steep bumpy run, you've got to trust your skills and do it without a whole lot of conscious thought.