Why do you want to ride blacks?

[bumpyride]

You don't have to bend down as far.

You get to make a lot more turns.

It's the next logical step to hone your skills.

You generally stay warmer.

The penalty for failure exhibits itself in very notable effects.

It's safer, in that you don't have to worry about the clutter that infects blue and green runs.

It's safer because you generally don't have to worry about a bunch of jibbers tucking out of control.

You generally have bumps (Wheeeeeee!!!!!)

You get to use the word generally quite often.

[pokkis]

the easiest way to drag your hip is on a 60 degree slope....

You sure about that figure :rolleyes:

[Istvan]

Cuz its huge fun!

That's the only place where you can do real laid linked turns one after an other - hip, armpit, palms and tounge dragging on the snow

Well, you can do it on a red, too - but real adrenalin comes on blacks.

[tex1230]

You sure about that figure :rolleyes:

that;s about as steep as you can go andstill maintain contact with the snow...

only 3 places I've experienced anything that steep - Pallisades, Squaw Valley, Donner Pass backcountry, and Jackson Hole - and No, I definitely wasn't carving...

Some people need to check their sarcasm meters...

[Istvan]

Doesn't it look like fun?

[pokkis]

If that slope would be little bit wider it would be even more nice to run. Also those slide stoping safety nets are sometimes bothering carves.

But seriously when it is icey, i prefer those safety nets if i have to go there

[Steph]

My constant goal is to become a better rider. Challenging my own skill set by riding whatever terrain is in front of me makes me a better rider. Whether it may be...perfect groomed on a steep trail, bumps, trees, powder...I say "bring it on". If you want to become a better rider then you need to challenge yourself. Am I wrong?????????????

[SWriverstone]

It's been interesting reading everyone's responses. And I admit I was probably a little too strident in my "I'll die without riding a black" statement. Lots of well-stated reasons here for riding them.

In any sport, it's always seemed to me that there are really two ways to motivate yourself to improve.

The first, which I'd call "external" motivation, is the classic "throw yourself in the deep end" approach. You force yourself into situations where you must rise to the challenge or the consequences can be severe. (Riding a really steep, icy black or running a class 5 rapid are examples of this.)

The second, which I'd call "internal" motivation, is where you narrow your technical focus down to finer, more granular levels—and hold yourself to ever-higher technical standards. With internal motivation, you create challenging goals for yourself in an environment where the consequences aren't as severe.

I don't think either approach is superior—they're both valid. Ideally, we'd all do both (and many do)...but in 20+ years of doing outdoor adventure sports, I've noticed that people generally tend to lean heavily toward one approach or the other.

Much of it is adrenaline-based. Adrenaline is a powerful drug, and the reality is that many folks are addicted to it. There's no doubt the best way to get your body squirting out the adrenaline is by putting yourself in a potentially dangerous situation!

In my past, a great example is whitewater paddling. Most people who get into whitewater feel a need to progress as quickly as possible right up through the class ratings: class 3, 4, then 5. They equate running difficult whitewater with being skilled.

I thought this too until I got into whitewater slalom racing (I'm a C-1 paddler). Suddenly my focus turned entirely on technique, and I realized I was nowhere near as good as I thought. I threw myself into mastering boat control and conditioning...and it was awesome. But here's the thing: none of it was on difficult whitewater. Even Olympic whitewater slalom courses are only class 3.

That's because there are many, many ways to make a class 3 rapid incredibly difficult. (Hanging slalom gates over it is only one of them.) I guarantee I could paddle with anyone who is a regular class 5 boater and show them moves on a class 3 rapid they'd never be able to do. (Not without a huge amount of practice, anyway.)

So I brought this mentality, the "internal" approach, to carving. When I'm out carving a moderate blue, there are SO many things I'm thinking about (and SO many ways in which I'm deficient!) that I find it incredibly fun, challenging, and rewarding. I literally never get bored...because if I do, it's inevitably because I'm not focusing enough on what I'm doing—I'm just bombing down the run without thinking much.

Please nobody think I'm suggesting that folks who carve blacks don't have good technique—not at all! What I'm suggesting is that there are always ways to challenge yourself in less extreme circumstances.

You might think it's inevitable that eventually, you'll just become "too good" for blues and have to move to blacks. Maybe...but (going back to my whitewater analogy for a second)...I've paddled with people who have been running risk-of-life whitewater for decades...and they literally couldn't do a simple set of precise, connected moves I showed them on a class 2 rapid. Did this mean they were bad paddlers? No...and yes. It all depends on what your definition of "skilled" is.

The bottom line is that I may carve blacks someday (acknowledging the huge variety in blacks). But after 4 seasons of carving and a couple hundred days on our local slope, I'm still finding plenty of ways to challenge myself on easy blues. Every time I head downhill, I think to myself "I'm going to do ____ and ____ and ____, and I'm going to be precise, and clean, and damn-near perfect.

Of course I never am, but each time I get even a tiny bit closer, it's a huge thrill. I'm completely happy. So why would I want to move to a steeper slope when I acknowledge that I'm less than perfect on the blue slope?

That's just me, and I certainly don't expect everyone to think like I do! :)

Scott

[Istvan]

I like this whitewater analogy.

I think one element is missing, though. There ARE things that you just cannot do on Blues. It does not change the fact, that there might be room for improvement in what you do on a blue, but still, certain things can only be done on steeper slopes.

Continous linked and laid turns is a good example. You can do one laid out turn on a Blue run if you want to impress people in front of the bar, but you'll never get up and jump into the next one.... right?

Is snowboarding only about fully laid out turns? No way.... but it is fun to do it on a steep run and that's the only place where you can do it. That's it.

Only my $0.02

Cheers

[pokkis]

You refer US blue or EU blue slope?

[carvedog]

So, it sounds like I would have a hard time convincing you to ride a double black diamond run with me.

Look at all the fun single and double black diamond runs at

http://www.snowbasin.com/images/trail_maps/mtn_trail_map_w.jpg

Are you Snowbasin rider? Says Bend on you info, but I thought you were in Utah. Anyways there is a run off the Strawberry Godola that is maybe Sowback or something. Smooth, very steep and it kicked my as last year. So I will have to go get it again this year.

One really cool thing about carving or even just riding the uber steeps is that regular steep seems ..... well flat after turning up the volume to 11.

When I was doing race training, we would regularly go into the bumps and choppy carp. After that a beat up groomed run would seem like a pool table.

About the whitewater analogy, I boat quite a bit myself. And I am not a class five boater and don't ever need to be. I used to push it a lot more until I had kids. After that I decided it just wasn't worth it, and one of the best things I have ever done in my life was get my whole family on the river last fall for six days. Worth more than all the adrenaline in all the class fives combined.

For some reason the steepest run doesn't faze me at all. Mainly because you can slow down the steepest terrain to a manageable speed. I guess if you really foul up you could go cartwheeling into the woods, but at least you don't end up upside down with your head getting dribbled over the rocks.

Sure wish I could do that in Class 5 ( slow it down that is). I watch guys ( and gals) who seem to be able to do that and I am in awe. In my raft I can, but in the yak I get too .....something. Can't see good enough, can't focus, ohhhh upside down again.

Really trying to make SES and I would be happy to take a couple of runs with you and Holly where ever you want to go.

I do the love the challenge of steeper but I don't really ever get bored on any run. As long as I am on my edge I am Happy.

[Neil Gendzwill]

The whitewater analogy is apt. But you're not going to learn to deal with a big hole if all you do is practice strokes in the chop.

Turning back to the snow, scale is important too. For those of us who like the bumps, you can get pretty good running blue bumps and then get thrown for a loop trying a tough black or double-black set. The blue terrain just can't force you into the same situations - you at some point, have to go out and do it.

Being able to navigate any terrain is a very useful skill. If I'm at a new hill, I'm not concerned about getting stranded above terrain I can't handle. Generally if it's in-bounds terrain at a resort, I can get down, although not always as prettily as I'd like. And frankly, that's what I enjoy - just riding the whole mountain and experiencing a variety of terrain. If I feel like taking a turn here to see what this next pitch is like, I can do it.

At some point you have to stop practicing scales and start playing some rock and roll.

[Allee]

There was a time when I thought that if I could carve all the way down a blue run, I'd die happy. Not any more. As you get better, you need more of a challenge.

There are two black runs at Nakiska called North Axe and Red Crow. Both used to terrify me. I was on Red Crow with friends a couple of weeks back just having a ball, throwing the edge in and shooting across the slope inches from the snowpack. North Axe, on the other hand, still scares the bejesus out of me ... but at some stage, I'm going to nail that too, that's my mission for this season :-)

As Neil says, being able to ride the whole mountain is a huge advantage. I've been lost on new hills a few times and ended up in places I shouldn't have... it's good to know that even if you have to slip and skid, you can still get back down in one piece.

[queequeg]

I'm probably just getting to the point where I can confidently carve in the steep stuff provided it isn't *too* icy, though I do still occasionally open my toesides up too much, and end up carrying through too much speed.

I definitely have to agree with the posters who indicate you simply cannot perform the same sort of fully laid over, high-g turns on the blues and greens. I think once you really start getting into the steeper terrain, you start looking at the more gentle runs as places you can't really ride aggressively (without bleeding off all your speed in a single turn).

One of my new favorite things is that weightless feeling you get when you initiate turns with the downhill edge on steep terrain. You just cannot achieve that on the blues and greens, I like knowing that as insane as it feels to do it - the technique will catch you every time and whip you around hard in the bottom. There is tremendous satisfaction in that ... makes you feel like a friggin magician or something.

The other big benefit of riding the steeper runs is they are less crowded, which to me is a huge benefit in and of itself. Even on the most crowded days, blacks are generally empty. I think the biggest hazard on the mountain isn't the pitch ... it's the straightliners and other out-of control skiers.

I agree with noschoolrider that a lot of people riding black terrain probably shouldn't be there, though there really is only one way to learn. It frustrates me when you're coming down a narrow black run and you've gotta tiptoe past a family of wedge skiers or a group of snowboarders doing the falling leaf all the way down ... frustrating.

[SWriverstone]

More great comments! At the risk of sounding like I'm trying to pound my drum too hard, there seems to be one idea that lies beneath many of these posts: that everybody wants to continually up the ante.

Having already admitted I was wrong to declare I'll never ride a black...the challenge and richness of my life experience doesn't come from pushing one thing to the extreme...but from diversity.

As soon as I reach a point (typically after a few years) in any given sport where the next step is to ramp up the difficulty (and commensurate risk if I screw up)...I just step away and learn a new sport! :)

This is fantastic...because I've never felt like I was bored or needed more of a challenge.

I learned to paddle class 3-4 whitewater well, then moved on to flyfishing. I learned to hook native brookies on flies I tied myself...then moved on to hang gliding. I learned to soar thermals to 6,000' AGL...then moved on to carving (where I'm still learning to carve blues competently).

Again, not trying to blow my horn...and this is just what works for me...but I guess my point is that when you have so many different sports to enjoy (and you're reasonably competent at all of them)...it completely, totally removes (at least for me) the need to push any one of them to my limits.

Some might ask "But don't you ever wonder how good you could be?" I'd answer yes...but I also wonder "How many sports can I get pretty good at?"

So for me carving is just one piece of a large, multisport puzzle.

Still, I really do appreciate the true fanatics in any given sport, because those fanatics show the rest of us what's possible...which is something that's worth knowing!

---

A couple of whitewater notes: actually Neil, you *can* learn to handle big holes on class 2-3 whitewater—I know many class 3 runs with some scary holes (depending on river level)...and you can also paddle "big water class 2," or a river in near-flood! LOL

Also...(still on whitewater)...learning the kind of precise boat handling that slalom gates demand makes it *easy* to slow down huge class 4 water, because you reach a point where catching micro-eddies and doing jet-ferries that look impossible to others becomes second nature.

Whenever I run a class 4 river, I'm always struck by how many people (who are competent boaters) just bomb down the big rapids and play at the bottom...whereas I'll catch every single eddy in the entire rapid, and paddle halfway back up the rapid while I'm at it. Those are all skills I learned on class 2-3 water, not the big stuff! :)

Scott

[Neil Gendzwill]

As soon as I reach a point (typically after a few years) in any given sport where the next step is to ramp up the difficulty (and commensurate risk if I screw up)...I just step away and learn a new sport! :)

Whereas one of the things I like about snowboarding (and skiing) is that I feel like it's a "life sport", something I can continually improve at and enjoy my whole life.

[SWriverstone]

Yes! I'll definitely be snowboarding 'til I can't anymore. (Which is why I grudgingly admit I'll probably someday ride a black, LOL.)

Scott

[shawndoggy]

I'll approach the answer from a completely different perspective... I started carving because skiing and softbooting got boring at my mountain and I'm too old to go big in the park anymore (gotta be to work on monday morning, you know?). My kids are doing the development team at my mountain, so I'm stuck there too (Mt. Rose). A good resort, but small and after having a pass there for nine consecutive years.... boring.

Carving makes this little boring mountain brand new again. Steep runs that seemed too short on skis (groomed but narrow, so you end up doing the virtual straightline) are now endless leg burning challenges on the carving rig.

Adrenaline, it is. But I see your point about skill development and refinement too. I could certainly use some more practice on ice and I'd love to learn to carve fakie.

[Petrol]

Simple...

less crowded slope, shorter lift lines & more endorphins

the mid atlantic blacks aren't much good for true carving because IF they groome at all, it's either not a very good job or scraped down to the boilerplate as soon as the third skidder hits it. all the same, I do like to hit them when I can.

Serious question—not a troll. :) Prompted by a conversation on our local carving list.

It seems as though there is a prevalent attitude among many (but not all) carvers that carving steep blacks is the logical, perhaps inevitable goal of all carving—the point toward which all carvers strive.

I personally have zero desire to ever set foot on a black. I can (and will) die of old age without ever having done it and won't regret it one bit. But I'm still curious to know (as best as you can articulate it) two things:

1. What a steep black does for you that a blue won't...and...

2. Why you couldn't be content to ride blues all your life.

Obviously if you're someone like me who doesn't give a rat's crotch about blacks, those two questions don't apply to you.

Have at it!

Scott

PS - The same question could be posed in many sports: why must you run class 5 whitewater? Why must you hang glide the Owens Valley? Why must you climb El Capitan? (And you're not allowed to say "Because it's there.")

[biggerwrangler]

because others can't do it and there is that feeling you get showing off and gasping for air at the end of the run as you look up the hill.

super sharp edges help as well. some shops can do a little edge work for 10 bucks, not a full grind as most rarely need it. Just the edges, I know loveland ski area will sharpen the edges to so sharp they cut paper! I know exactly were you are coming from, I saw a guy carving on my local mountain back in michigan and never been the same.

embrace it and enjoy it, and do it now, otherwise you will be one year older when you do.

Hanggliding sounds like soooo much fun, think I will find a place this summer to go do that!

[ShortcutToMoncton]

]

There are two black runs at Nakiska called North Axe and Red Crow. Both used to terrify me. I was on Red Crow with friends a couple of weeks back just having a ball, throwing the edge in and shooting across the slope inches from the snowpack. North Axe, on the other hand, still scares the bejesus out of me ... but at some stage, I'm going to nail that too, that's my mission for this season :-)

Ever make it out to Louise much? Some phenomenal runs to carve. Men's Downhill was always my benchmark, but it gets scraped off pretty fast, and while I had at least a couple solid runs on it, I can't say that I ever completely charged it.

greg

[newcarver]

I like to push myself to see how far I can take it. Just started carving last year so I'm still carving on the blues and double blues but hope to be able to carve on blacks at some point. Some of the double blues where I am would be classified as blacks at some places I guess. Probably why its so hard to do well. I get board with the same runs after a while so it is nice to try something different and more difficult. Also nice to feel the rush of more speed. Did I mention that I like more speed :D

[Allee]

I haven't been to Louise for 2 seasons now. Last time I was there I had a banger day with Corey Dyck and Bartron.:) I just never get enthused to make the extra drive past Sunshine.

Speaking of black runs ... I laughed my head off last week riding with Paul K at Sunshine. He rolled off the top of a black run called Ecstacy and proceeded to just nail it. There were two jibbers sitting at the top of the run, and I was waiting a few feet from them. Their jaws simultaneously hit the snow, they both sat up to get a better look, and one of them pointed and said to his mate "Holy f&$k! did you just see THAT???"

I laughed all the way down the run - with much less style than Paul, I might add.

What was the question? Why would you want to ride a black run?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Men's Downhill is a hoot, especially that first pitch. I like Ladies' even better but it gets bumped up and scraped off.

[Helmut Karvlow]

Ever make it out to Louise much? Some phenomenal runs to carve. Men's Downhill was always my benchmark, but it gets scraped off pretty fast, and while I had at least a couple solid runs on it, I can't say that I ever completely charged it.

greg

Great run and Great place to ride, ever try norquay????? small but some really steep runs.

for the question, for me it's the rush of the speed the added G's in the turn,knowing if I don't do everything just right it could end up bad! and honestly green runs are like kissing your sister:eek:........................ don't do it poo, I know you have a smart a$$ comment!