Powder with Plates??

[b0ardski]

I had the 169 3800 last year & it was awesome in the powder with Xbones, however I was wishing it was upper 170s & a little stiffer. I'm 180# aggressive rider and think the radon will do better on the groom as it's stiffer with a more centered sweet spot.

[Jon Dahl]

I think I have posted in every one of those threads on this subject. SB123's or Dynafit TLT4's are all I use, Bomber TD2's, Bomber Splitboards, or Snowpro race bindings, all with 6mm bails. I do not find, even in chest deep powder, that I "overpower" the board. Just remember you are in surf mode, small movements do big things for you. Now, as far as board selection goes, you have a lot of options. I like a big board for anything but the tight stuff. Been on a couple of Nitro swallowtails in the 178/181 size, the Voile 178 swallowtail, but my go to board is my 192 Tanker. I'm no giant either, at 160 lbs/5'7" . Ride mostly in west coast snowpack.

[BlueB]

I normally rock h/boots in pow.

My absolute favorite is the 4807 178. Amazing float. Great hooked up tail feeling in pow. Superb float from the big soft boat nose. Stiff effective edge and tail lets you carve it pretty good on groomed.

For the trees and bumps I prefer 3800 169.

Tanker 192 is a great all-rounder and better carver then the former 2, but I like it less in pow. It lacks that very special feeling of the swallow/fish tail.

Got a big bad A200 RR, the only board I can not flex on hard pack. Still have to try her in some really deep stuff. I think she'll fly.

I have pretty high hopes for Hammer 166 split-tail as a tree rider.

Tried today the Steepwater Steep 172 for the 1st time and it rocked as a carver and AM board. It's stiff like hell along the effective edge, but that big showel is surprisingly soft. I don't think it would have any troubles in deep pow.

I still have to try the biggest Winterstick ST, the 183 and Roy's 173, after we tuned them. Showel is huge, flex is medium-stiff. Surprisingly, the sidecut is very tight for such a huge board - 9m or so. Well, if it works on Dupraz, I don't see why it shouldn't on the ST. I'll know soon enough...

[philw]

Opinions on powder setups? [...] I'll be spending extended time in CO this winter. So I may actually ride some real powder.

Also planning a Heli Trip to BC next year with a group of local skiers and I'd prefer the board.

[...]

Anyone out there riding powder in Hardboots???

Yes, although I sort of don't understand the basis of the question. My hard boots are good in all conditions for the same reason they're good in specific conditions: they're comfortable and they give me precise control over my board. I don't ride resorts much, but I've been around a fair bit, and I've probably more collective time than most.

Whilst "powder" and "soft" are words which have some sort of connexion, that doesn't have any physical meaning. You either like having precise control or you wear fashionable boots, that's it.

As for "opinions on powder setups", I'd say ride what works for you, and don't buy anything until you know it works for you. Personally I find that what works for heli/ cat guests generally also works for me - Burton Fish and Malolos. I could explain why, but that's been done before, and in any case I'd encourage anyone with the time and the cash to ride the alternatives too. I've not ridden *all* the alternatives, but I've ridden with people on them.

[Rob Stevens]

The funny thing about comparing the 2 boots is that they really can overlap in performance, with different boots and binders.

Carvedog talks about his old Koflach Superpipes. ****, those boots were good. Had myself some of those and the Hunter before them. The Hunter was my first boot ever. The ankle was hilarious. Just a little flap of plastic. Ski boot liners inside and no highbacks.

The only thing modern softboots have over the Superpipe (ridden with a first gen Sims highback and its higher ankle cuff than the Hunter), are their rigid backlasts (the part against the highback) and all that nice padding. The Superpipe was rivited in 2 pieces and had no forward lean to speak of. You could stand upright in those and with only a thin plastic shell, there's wasn't much between you and the highback.

They were all about the Vibram sole.

With hardboots, there is no sole flex. The sole flex in softboots can be very tiring and leave the user feeling like they've lost power. Only superstiff baseplates, available in limited binding models, can make up for this. Most people have never ridden really stiffly baseplated bindings. The average baseplate is just plastic and will never feel as responsive. If you combine Vibram soles and carbon / metal baseplates, you're halfway there.

A cockstiff highback, properly adjusted to provide good forward lean, will get you the rest of the way. Add in some plastic tongues and essentially what you have is a hardboot. A liner (the boot) inside a shell (the binding).

Good examples of this are the Burton DriverX with some older C60's (new ones are weak). 32 TM2's and Nitro carbon. Salomon Malamutes and Nidecker carbons are another nice choice. If you look around this site, you'll see others, like the Cateks, that are even rowdier. You'll pay a weight penalty with those, though.

With the above setups, the ankle flex (forward and side to side) is the only "easy" movement you're getting and can easily be modified with different tongues. Many people find this is ideal, as ankle flex is the one thing you want to tune for, depending on conditions.

Unfortunately, even the Vibram sole in the DriverX is not the same stiffness as the old Koflach laceups of the late 80's to early 90's and overly stiff forward lean is found in most new freeride softboots. This disconnect is unfortunate. In the fit, advanced rider, a very stiff sole with more flexible ankle can allow high toe and heel pressures, while at the same time keeping ankles free and soft for absorbtion of varied, freeride terrain.

For me, the best boot would be the 32's with a real, flexless Vibram sole and the older, full carbon Burtons. Stiff, low and light. This is what I would like for freeriding off the grooms. The old Raichle tongue could have its place, too.

Too bad it doesn't exist. The Driver has an ankle stiffer than some hardboots and the 32's sole is pretty soft. The baseplate makes up for this to a large degree, but there's still a lost performance opportunity, not having both.

A really flexy hardboot and plates will get you to the same place. You might like them. They will be a little bit higher off the deck and could weigh more, but they'll be easier to get in and out of and work better with a multi-piece backcountry outfit.

Come to think of it, I would go back to hardboots on a freeride twin if I could lighten them, lower them and make them invisible so my friends wouldn't think I was gay. I'm that insecure.

The angles of the stance are a different story and really the big issue here. That's where terrain and body stabilitycomes into the discussion. In pow, if it's tight and quick with drops and kickers, do yourself a favour and ride lower angles and a wider stance than you would hardpack carving. If you're WFO, the higher angles can rule, though. Some people can really blur the lines here, but the average rider will benefit from this.

The board is the element that will make whatever boot / binding combo you choose work or fail. I do like wider (28cm) and damp 170 to 180's off trail and narrower (21ish) 170 to 180's on cord snow, with a nice LeMans and TD2's.

[D-Sub]

have prior build you one of these:

[BadBrad]

What's that, a metal 4WD?

I have ridden my 4WD in powder, and it did fine, but I've never ridden a powder-specific board so what do I know?

[Hotbeans]

D-sub, man, that's a great looking board! Stance is pretty much centered with this board?

[maxlean]

I just got back from 3 days in Vail. Fortunately, on day two they opened China bowl but the pow had this frozen rain crust over powder. So, I spent most of the time on the fresh groomers (morning that is- like I was following 8 cats as they groomed!). I was on my new Prior Pow Stick with hard boots. I was totally blown away by this board - in particular, I didn't expect it to carve as well as it did. Obviously, the width means you can't be lazy at all on edge transitions, but what an all mountain board!

But the true test came on day 3 when they opened Blue Sky Basin for the first time after a night of 6-10" inches of pow on an untracked base. Basically, it was about 2 feet of fresh pow. Unfortunately, it was Saturday and everyone from Denver was there and everyone headed straight to Blue Sky Basin. So, the untracked pow only lasted for 2 runs (I've never in my years seen a mountain skied off that quickly!).

In any case, the Prior swallowtail was simply awesome in deep pow. One of the easiest and most fun rides I've ever had. The long (almost rocker) tip floated with ease and the swallowtail never put me in the back seat and allowed effortless carving using the back foot.

However, one thing is for sure, I will be switching to a soft setup for pow days (Driver X's). While I had no problem in the pow on hardboots with the BTS cranked all the way soft, the real problems is when all that wonderful pow gets tracked up. The most comfortable way to get thru all the mini moguls is to put the board on edge and carve thru them. But, this tends to make you haul ass and when you have to slide to a stop, you just get the crap bashed out of you - especially on the shins. Having a more fexible soft setup not only makes it more comfortable, it gives my shins a break from hardbooting. So, on pow days, if you can't really carve, why go with the hard boots that make moguls more difficult?

And, since pow can really end up working you hard, the soft setup will lose almost 5 lbs per foot - which over the course of a day is no small thing. And, by relaxing the stance angles, I also get to work different muscles, which if you want to do 3-4 days in a row is helpful.

But, damn, that Pow Stick is simply wonderful...

Robert

[scotts.Scheinman]

Powder in hardboots rocks! I've had nothing but great experiences riding CO powder in hardboots...spent a good amount of time doing this and I never wished for anything else or felt held back in any way.

much quicker response time when weight shifting

[RDY_2_Carve]

Nice board Dave!

I'm personally trying to do 100% hardboots this year. Started yesterday @ Taos with HB's on my newly aquired Lib Tech Dark Magne (thanks eastcoasticerider!).

I have to say the Lib + F2 Titanflex + Stratos Pros is going to be a great compliment to the 172 AM-T. The Lib exceeded my expectations from a carving standpoint, and I still haven't tried it on an icy day!

I'll probably be offloading my other boards soon!

[Neil Gendzwill]

A really flexy hardboot and plates will get you to the same place. You might like them.

I'm 190 lbs and I can flex the hell out of my old Raichle 224s. They work well for me in all conditions.

I would go back to hardboots on a freeride twin if I could lighten them, lower them and make them invisible so my friends wouldn't think I was gay.

I'm usually the only guy on the hill at Louise or Sunshine rocking the hard setup. So far, nobody has spit on me.

[wjholm]

Thanks to all again..

A Tanker 200 is on the way form Dave at Hardbooter.com

Heading out to Big Mountain next week....prayin for snow!!!!

[D-Sub]

What's that, a metal 4WD?

I have ridden my 4WD in powder, and it did fine, but I've never ridden a powder-specific board so what do I know?

no, it's not metal. It's just a customized 4WD I scored here. Best board Ive ever ridden. Im pretty simple though.

[D-Sub]

D-sub, man, that's a great looking board! Stance is pretty much centered with this board?

1" setback.

[Steve Prokopiw]

Your post is a great example of how this all works so differently for different people.Your points about riding when the pow's been chopped up or in moguls are exactly why I prefer hardboots even more in those conditions.The shin support I get from the hardboots and the energy return I get from my input helps aleviate the beating my ankles might otherwise get from a soft setup.The powerful edge set and the superior control I feel from the hardboots allows me to slice through the chop and the support of the boots keeps me from feeling my ankles trying to roll if I have to throw it sideways.I just change to the very soft yellow tongues on my raichles on pow days.

That said I also have two identical Santa Cruz 172 boards that are great powder boards.This season I have bought a soft setup just to reaquaint myself with it after years of not riding soft at all.So one of the boards I will use with soft (deep,fresh,untracked,out of bounds)and one with hard(chop and every other condition that hurts my feet and ankles)

[Dr D]

Thanks to all again..

A Tanker 200 is on the way form Dave at Hardbooter.com

Heading out to Big Mountain next week....prayin for snow!!!!

I will let you demo a 3800 and a 4807 if you like when you are up here. I also have a dupraz D1. The 3800 and the Dupraz are for sale. I am ordering a stiffer dupraz to go with my 285# butt. love the ride tho.

[wjholm]

I will email you for contact info at Big Mtn.

Almost bought the 4807.........the chance to supporut a hardboot shop pushed me toward the Tanker....there's a swallow tail in my future but not sure which one???????:rolleyes:

[Rob Stevens]

I'm usually the only guy on the hill at Louise or Sunshine rocking the hard setup. So far, nobody has spit on me.

Well... It is Christmas.

Maxlean. Good point earlier about throwing it sideways (I'm guessing toeside) in cut up snow. When you want to slack your ankles completely, you can get a rough ride in a boot that's overly stiff, smashing your shins. Boots like this will always carve better than they slide. It's difficult to finesse a toeside sliding turn with no ankle flex.

This isn't a harboot / softboot thing. It's a forward flex thing. Swappable tongues in any boot is the ticket. For sure, if you're a one pair rider.

I hear you on the weight, though. 5 pounds per foot, eh? Never weighed my ****, but that sounds right. The 32's are unnoticeable on my feet, unlike any HB I've ridden and the carbon bindings are insignificant, too.

[wjholm]

Just returned from a week at Big Mountain, MT. Through this thread and the ride board I made contact with the Doc. In spite of my missing him the first day, he was kind enough to persist and find me on the last day. Mountain tour, introductions and he let me ride his 4807 - much snow last week!!

Another testament to the fine people and contacts that can be made here

Yes Doc, a 4807 is on the way :D

[Dr D]

glad you had fun. Come again you know where to find me:biggthump

[Przemek/Brooklyn]

I was playing with soft boots few sesons ago and get to conclusion that it is not worth an effort (transport, changing, logistic ect) i just ride plates on my tanker 172 and love it. Big GS turns on pow and whatever off piste and great carving on snow (80% of my free carve board performance)

not too good on ice but didnt sharpen it for a while. I dont ride in walk mode but i dont tight them as much as for carve. I fund good binding angle front 45 and 40 back that works great for everything except stupidly tight steep forest runs in vermont (duck stance is better for this)

I LOVE my tanker in big steep open spaces (alps) in powder, suprisingly i use very simmilar technique to carving (body movments) except i keep my board flater. I dont enjoy skiding turns in powder as much.

P

[pow4ever]

Seems like most if not all that responds have above average riding ability.

If you ride various condition and have good fundemental and solid technique then it usualy come down to personal preference.

ie

How much gears do you want to lug around in the airport?

I am going to Vail next week and I am tearing out my hair out just thinkg about what setup to bring.

Pretty much decided that I am only going to ride Hardboot this season; but all these reading have confuse me greately.

From a softboot transition to HB noob(my) perspective:

If you are not used to riding pow then it's going to take some time to get used to it. For the average folks; if I get more than 3 powder days a season I am buying lottery.

Untrack deep powder doesnt' count as it's just magical...

Tracked up powder/soft mogul usually kick my ass. Which I think I am finally getting a little better at it since we got some snow storm in the north east this year. The more various conditon you ride the better boarder you will become.

Getting stuck in the deep stuff in the HB are a major PITA for me. For most expericen rider I don't see this as an issue. I found myself in this situation as I get scare riding HB on trail that I usually just cruise by riding softie. I think it's mostly mental block but it's something I need to work on.

--

David

[newcarver]

If your riding resort powder, HB will work just fine. Just started riding HB last season and have had a blast in pow from 6" - 12" deep. Just need the right board for the right conditions. An all mountain free carve type board can be a lot of fun. wider in the waist and less angle. You get wicked quick response with the HB's. For deep pow, I still ride a stiff softboot setup. I might try HB's in deep stuff sometime soon though.

[philw]

;-)

If you're (!) riding bottomless heli / cat powder, hardboots work just fine. In fact a couple of people I was riding with over the past month commented that they may switch, having seen what can be done. At one of the heli-operators I rode with, the ops manager even commented that most of the best riders they see are hard booters.

On a couple of days in one location we rode coastal "upside down" snow including some snowmobile tracks and considerable wind-effect. That had the guides plus the ex-pros with us crashing and burning a little. I buried my nose once, but that was it. Hard boots work pretty well in mixed conditions too.

I think maybe it's just a question of choice, for those of us lucky enough to know that there is a choice. For everyone else, they just ride what they can get.

This is F2 Titaniums plus AF700s on a Lib Tech Snow Mullet complete with Magne-Traction (!) and banana technology (!). Despite that and the 80s graphics it rocks in powder: