Camber

[softbootsurfer]

But between two boards with identical stiffness and flex pattern but one with zero camber, the one with camber should hold a better edge because it's distributing more pressure out along the whole board.

Two boards with IDENTICAL stiffness and flex could not have different camber

[Jack M]

Two boards with IDENTICAL stiffness and flex could not have different camber

Semantics. I'm saying, build one board with camber, then build another one with the same geometry, materials, and core profile, but set the camber bed in the press to flat, and I would probably enjoy the one with camber more.

[softbootsurfer]

Semantics. I'm saying, build one board with camber, then build another one with the same geometry, materials, and core profile, but set the camber bed in the press to flat, and I would probably enjoy the one with camber more.

Look, if Burton matched my Supermodel exactly except took out the 1/4" of Camber I know that It would not make one bit of difference. Maybe the

Quality of surface or snow impacts this as Colorado snow is so dry and

soft that as one guy mentioned you can use a lunchtray if you wanted

and of course lunchtrays have no camber...

[tex1230]

That's It...I can't take any more of this drivel...

I choose the Nuclear Option

[b0ardski]

I've used lunch trays with enough camber to spill my beer & chilli, :lol:I noticed it had more camber than the Grocer I was on.

[tex1230]

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[b0ardski]

This makes perfect sense but I'm going to ask a possibly stupid question anyway. When turning "aggressively" on a toeside carve (as an example), in some instances the front of the board leaves the snow while the rear of the board still has the edge set in the snow. During this split second of time, if that edge were still set into the snow and your front knee began to rotate outward into a heelside turn, wouldn't that be torsionally twisting the board into what you guys are talking about - basically wrentching the sh!t out of the board to make it twist in the middle, thereby popping the tail out from under you. Maybe I'm missing the point but you guys have me curious.

In this video

at the 2:56, 4:26 and especially at the 7:00 mark is this what is happening?

FWIW, I like my camber, but I've also never ridden board with no camber.

This is what I am trying to describe, but without the hop, smooth tip on the snow transition.

Like a snake not a rabbit:biggthump

[Bullwings]

Ok, I've been reading this long enough and I think you master keyboard carvers need to go grab a longboard/surf board/kite board/dirt board/ or any other board you can think of and go outside and ride.

This place is useful and has definitely taught me a lot and helped me out as a carver, but if a lot of us spent as much time outside on ANY sort of board at all as we do keyboard carving, we'd be much much better once the snow started falling...

All this technical babel will do NOTHING to improve your carving technique and will just piss you off and wish for the snow even more. And for some of us, that's more than 3-4 months away.

I still have a ton to learn, and there's still a decent amount of useful info here, but there's tons more info/experience/muscle memory to be learned outside doing something physical. Hell, go do some cardio and core exercises, you'll be that much better when the snow starts falling. Grab an indo board and stand there and watch the olympics.

I'm sure everything i've listed above will make you a better carver than 2 or 3 cm of camber ever could. Btw, if you're already doing all of that, then ignore me and type away. THis makes for some entertaining reading material while at work (not that i'm there right now).

[b0ardski]

I'm trying to picture in my head how this would work...

You come to the end of a carve (toeside, for the sake of discussion) and you wrench the nose of the board to the other edge. So you're leaning on your front heel, while still maintaining pressure on your rear toe.

Does anyone here actually go bow-legged like that as they change edges? And conversely, you'd have to drive your knees toward the center of the board (if not beyond it) when switching from your heel edge to your toe edge. That sounds incredibly awkward.

And then let's consider the fact that to maintain a carve the board has to actually be turning. What happens in the middle of the board when the tail is carving right and the nose is carving left? Until I see someone riding a board with a hinge in the middle I'm thinking this isn't possible.

Tex has a Hyarc, it has a hinge in the middle; maybe he'll let me try to carve that, torsional flex could be an issue on that contraption:lol::lol:

+1 on the balance board every day, mini-tramp lunges too, tele & snowboard stance.

[Phil]

Uh, take your board and put it on the floor

Step on it...no Camber now is there.

The only time there is any camber is when the board is unweighted

or at home in your closet. If you are over the front and applying pressure

from turn to turn where is the camber then?

camber is set by post tensioning by using flex

two identical boards with different flex would carve differently

It seems to me that you are missing the point of camber. Camber is not meant to be there once you are standing on the board. The more camber that exists in a board, the more potential energy you are putting into it just by standing on it. The suspension analogies above are good ones. A board with a lot of camber has a lot of potential energy stored up the instant you get on it. Now, as has been discussed above, it will be immediately responsive. There is no need to throw your weight forward, you can utilize this potential energy by staying centered if you want.

So if you have two boards with the same stiffness, but one has camber built into it and the other does not, the one with the camber will be more responsive from the start. It will also have more potential energy stored up at the same speed and tilted at the same angle. So if you took two pictures, the boards would look like they are carving the same arc, but one would have more potential energy stored even though they are built with the same stiffness.

I think that this is a great discussion, but it is really hard to take only one small piece of the snowboard construction equation and single it out to discuss the merits and drawbacks (as we can all see).

As far as twist, I think that this is a great topic, but I don't want to threadjack the camber thread with it, so why don't we all go talk about twist here.

That being said, I would like to finish by talking about transitions in this thread. There are so many ways to transition from turn to turn and they make so many different different patterns in the snow. I have been using track analysis with my students and athletes for years and I have learned that there are ways to "cheat". For example, there is one drill that we do where we have people try to make one track the whole way down the hill. An advanced rider can do this well by jumping from their toeside to their heelside edge and actually jumping up the hill into their old track. So, essentially, you will jump from your toeside edge and land in the same track with your heelside edge. I have seen a lot of people do it so consistently that when we travel back up the lift, there really looks like there is one uninterrupted line the whole way down the hill. I have also had them try to go so quickly from edge to edge that it looks like there is a complete board length of overlap. Now if you do this with a hop, you have total overlap and no "flat spot" because your board never goes flat.

As far as twisting is related to tracks, I am not as convinced about this, but I really don't feel that anyone has ever proved it to me one way or the other. I am sure that there is some effect, but I think that those who deliberately employ twist probably overstate how much effect it has on transition lines.

Oh, here is a new post:

O

This place is useful and has definitely taught me a lot and helped me out as a carver, but if a lot of us spent as much time outside on ANY sort of board at all as we do keyboard carving, we'd be much much better once the snow started falling...

All this technical babel will do NOTHING to improve your carving technique and will just piss you off and wish for the snow even more. And for some of us, that's more than 3-4 months away.

I still have a ton to learn, and there's still a decent amount of useful info here, but there's tons more info/experience/muscle memory to be learned outside doing something physical. Hell, go do some cardio and core exercises, you'll be that much better when the snow starts falling. Grab an indo board and stand there and watch the olympics.

I'm sure everything i've listed above will make you a better carver than 2 or 3 cm of camber ever could. Btw, if you're already doing all of that, then ignore me and type away. THis makes for some entertaining reading material while at work (not that i'm there right now).

Actually, I have found quite the contrary. Reading stuff like this helps me to learn a lot that will transition to the snow.

As I read people's opinions on this stuff and try to understand how they ride and relate their riding to board characteristics, it helps me to understand riders, techniques, and their relationship to board characteristics.

I then use this to help myself be a better trainer and coach. All of this also helps me to be a better rider because a lot of my riding and learning is very cerebral. That is just who I am.

That being said, I am also very active and am in some of the best shape of my life.

Wait until the season starts and everyone starts whining about their physical condition and how it is too late to hit the gym.

What a lot of people don't know is that efficiency and effectiveness leading to economy of motion in your riding can get you just as far as being in shape will get you. Some people can actually get some of that efficiency and effectiveness by reading informative posts.

Now we are really getting off topic.

[photodad2001]

Ok, I've been reading this long enough and I think you master keyboard carvers need to go grab a longboard/surf board/kite board/dirt board/ or any other board you can think of and go outside and ride.

This place is useful and has definitely taught me a lot and helped me out as a carver, but if a lot of us spent as much time outside on ANY sort of board at all as we do keyboard carving, we'd be much much better once the snow started falling...

All this technical babel will do NOTHING to improve your carving technique and will just piss you off and wish for the snow even more. And for some of us, that's more than 3-4 months away.

I still have a ton to learn, and there's still a decent amount of useful info here, but there's tons more info/experience/muscle memory to be learned outside doing something physical. Hell, go do some cardio and core exercises, you'll be that much better when the snow starts falling. Grab an indo board and stand there and watch the olympics.

I'm sure everything i've listed above will make you a better carver than 2 or 3 cm of camber ever could. Btw, if you're already doing all of that, then ignore me and type away. THis makes for some entertaining reading material while at work (not that i'm there right now).

I've been windsurfing all spring and summer long. High wind / low wind...

I feel you and just wanted to know if camber.... on a scale from 1 to 12 was so really important that if it wasn't there... if the same moves that I've seen were capable. I have 20+ years on a snowboard. Not dedicated souly to carving... but I've laid it down. Just was curious if camber made a huge differance. I guess my real question was (sorry if this wasn't obvious) was... "Is "camber" such a HUGE impact that it will hinder myself from being able to lay it low (really low). I'm not interested in competition, but soul carving.

Remember... East coast... used equipment (sorry Tex, I don't have cash), and I'm only doing this for fun. And that's what will bring those companies that you all slander back to making the equipment you want. (Again... to the powers that control this site, you will need to make room for us recreational "hobbist" that don't have the money, and there will be more to come in larger surges. That's the only point I've taken and have been flagged for it.)

That is all

Photodad

[tex1230]

No reason to apologize for not having money - we have all been there (and wait till you have it and lose it all in a day...that feels REALLY good). I am not by any means saying you can't carve on your equipment. I am simply saying, given identical boards, one with camber and one without, the one with camber will perform better in every condition outside of powder...but who carves powder anyway?

You asked a question - there is your answer.

Can we move on now? I'm feeling the nuclear option coming on again....

:rolleyes:

[Jack M]

Bullwings... see bobdea's signature.

softbootsailer - supermodel? soft colorado packed powder? sure, camber doesn't matter to you. our discussions here often trend to the theoretical and hair splitting, because that stuff comes into play on critical conditions like ice and chalk that we have to deal with daily on the east coast.

Camber distributes your weight out to the ends of the board. Imagine paper-thin scales under the contact areas of the nose and tail of the board. When you step on the board, these scales will read significantly higher than if your board has no camber. Actually if your board is soft enough, the scales may read almost zero without camber. This will be a big problem on turn initiation.

<b>Photodad</b> - you're not flagged, come on. Put it this way - to compare snowboarding to photography, and this forum to dpreview, softboots and freeride boards would be point-n-shoots, used Burton Factory Primes, Oxygens, Rossignols are the Canon Rebel and Nikon D40 with kit lenses, Coiler/Donek/Prior/Madd etc are the 40D, D300 with pro glass. (Virus would be Leica) But we don't segregate this forum into these different camera groups, and I think that's a good thing.

[LeeW]

LeeW - I tried to carve my old Lamar TrickStick once long ago... (the original Banana Board) It didn't work so much!!! You cannot set the edge correctly if the front end of the board is 1cm above the snowwhen flat.

Oh wow, didnt know such thing exists way back then. Thanks for the chime. ANd dude, I remember that board as yoru avatar. Does it actually work ?

[tex1230]

I have no idea - I haven't had the guts to risk my knees on it...

I tried one years ago when they first came out and it was weird...twidt your feet and it tilts on edge...

Maybe I'll try it out this year if I can find some old softboot bindings to fit...

[Phil]

Hey Tex,

Have you tried a Ripstik or Wave board?

I wonder how similar, or dissimilar they would be to your Hyarc.

I have really been enjoying my Ripstik this summer. It is very much like making round skidded turns on a snowboard. It is also self propelled, so it is perfect for taking my 2 and 4 years olds on a bike ride.

[tex1230]

my son has a ripstik - I think I'm over the weight limit for it :D so I haven't tried it, but yes, the motion is very similar to the Hyarc.

[softbootsurfer]

Bullwings... see bobdea's signature.

softbootsailer - supermodel? soft colorado packed powder? sure, camber doesn't matter to you. our discussions here often trend to the theoretical and hair splitting, because that stuff comes into play on critical conditions like ice and chalk that we have to deal with daily on the east coast.

Put it this way - to compare snowboarding to photography, and this forum to dpreview, softboots and freeride boards would be point-n-shoots, used Burton Factory Primes, Oxygens, Rossignols are the Canon Rebel and Nikon D40 with kit lenses, Coiler/Donek/Prior/Madd etc are the 40D, D300 with pro glass. (Virus would be Leica) But we don't segregate this forum into these different camera groups, and I think that's a good thing.

Sorry, but my supermodel is not a point and shoot, rather a very sophisticated piece of equipment that has progressed through the years

to what it is today. Really this is about style and snow consistency. You need camber to run Slalom and you need camber on ice to help

hold a turn...I require very little as I do not run slalom nor do I hop from turn to turn. I think of camber as an extension or an integral

part of the boards overall flex design, Terje rides a Supermodel I suppose because it matches his style?

I believe Style is the Dance and when I am dancing I dwell in that place between the snow and the Sky...

[Jack M]

supermodel = point-n-shoot.

[queequeg]

You know -- you're right, this whole camber thing is a bunch of snake oil that the snowboarding industry has been shoving up our collective asses for years and I for one have had it.

Who needs to be able to precisely control turn radius? Who needs to be able track straight on hard snow? I say just pre-form the snowboard into your preferred turn radius and hop from one side to another. No need for sidecut radius then too.

I for one prefer spinning around completely out of control while my nose and tail flop about, helplessly unable to make a positive connection with the snow surface. I mean, lets face it: precise edge control is for sissies--it's two times as fun with half the control. In fact, were it not for all the sponsorship pizza money paying the way for world cup riders, I imagine we would see them all careening down the mountain on urethane covered 8X2's and converse all-stars. Wasn't it just last week that Mathieu Bozzetto was overheard whining about how if it weren't for all the sponsorship $$ from kessler he would totally be ripping it up on his garage door?

I say: Just say no to the snowboarding industry's bizzarre attempts to pull the wool over our eyes with their fancy camber profiles other snake oil sidecut! This year! I'm doin' it in a pair of bunny slippers and my radio flyer! That'll show 'em!!!!!

[Bullwings]

Ok, my little bit on camber.

I can't feel camber quite as much on a snowboard with or without (mainly because i've never ridden one dead - breaking it doesn't count). Although I do know that my Donek FCI is way snappier than my ATV and has way more camber, but it's also way stiffer. Actually, comparing those two boards is like apples and oranges, so I don't think it applies as much.

As far as longboards, camber rules for carving. Just check out the loaded boards. Camber = snappy carving. Reverse camber on a longboard = something else, but not so snappy carving.

And yes Jack, as a terminal intermediate (heh, not even intermediate), there's way too much technical jargon in this thread for me to get anything useful and translate it to the snow later on. Not quite at the level to gather much from this banter. Interesting to read? Yes. Useful and going to improve my riding? Not quite so sure. Going out and riding has been much more useful than anything else, especially riding with other carvers. Reading the tech articles here have been useful without a doubt, but in the end, without actually going out and riding, you're like "an expert swimmer that's never been in a pool." (to quote a tool)

[tex1230]

[b0ardski]

the camber in that mushroom halo reminds me of the beer spillin lunch tray:lol::lol:

[bobdea]

Sorry, but my supermodel is not a point and shoot, rather a very sophisticated piece of equipment that has progressed through the years

to what it is today. Really this is about style and snow consistency. You need camber to run Slalom and you need camber on ice to help

hold a turn...I require very little as I do not run slalom nor do I hop from turn to turn. I think of camber as an extension or an integral

part of the boards overall flex design, Terje rides a Supermodel I suppose because it matches his style?

I believe Style is the Dance and when I am dancing I dwell in that place between the snow and the Sky...

what year supermodel?

if it's one of the old ones it's more akin to a polaroid, the newer ones are pretty good modern board. get on a tanker in whatever size and vintage you so choose and honestly tell me a old supermodel does anything better other than delam and I'll call bull****. they however were alright in 1998. the boards did not really progress they were all pretty much the same, they stopped making them and they released a new board with the same name some seven or so years later that was nothing like the old super models in design concept. the new ones are more like the malolo or the fish than anything else. the first year burton made them it said right in the catalog that the boards were specifically meant to be the big gun in your quiver. this puts it in with things like the lib tech grocer/doughboy/skunk ape or rad air tanker. the new supermodel is a totally different beast.

Terje is on supermodels now? the last few bits I saw he was on a t6 and the other honeycomb job burton makes. Not doubting, just interested.

this camber thing be a dead horse

[carverboy]

every now and again I poke my head in here and view one of these threads lmao! thanks guys lets hope we all get a great winter to ride with or without camber (personally Im a big fan of it):lol: