Soft Boot Carving

[bobdea]

I think that, in spite of the changes in equipment in the past ten years, it still requires less effort for the same degree of railing in a hard set-up versus a soft set up.

I'm making much of this comparison based on being out of riding for the past ten years. Got married, had kids, focused on rock climbing for awhile. The first thing I had to do this year was upgrade both my hard and soft boots. I'm now riding UPZ RTR hardboots (up from a set of old 1994 Raichle 727s) and Burton Driver X softboots (up from a set of Burton Comps). I was amazed with what a difference there has been in the past ten years.

I'm riding the Driver X's on a 1994 Burton CK Slopestyle (173cm) with 45/40 angles and in the soft spring conditions yesterday I was stoking my ego on a groomed run under a lift with a forearm in the snow on every turn. I left the hill wondering what I could have done with the UPZs however. Because I bought the UPZ's late in the season I've only had a couple of runs this year to try them out, maybe seven or eight turns total. But they were far better to carve on than my '94 Raichles 727s.

Back in the early nineties I used to think a hard set-up was required for serious carving. With the really laterally stiff "soft" boots I now see availiable, I question that assumption. I am fairly sure that the UPZ hardboot will maintain its stiffness characteristic far longer than my Burton Driver X boots. I also question whether a softboot will dig into serious hardpack the same way my hardboots have allowed me to.

Next season - new bindings. Need something with ratching straps for the softies and something metal and step-in for my 1995 Oxygen freecarving board.

that's hardly a fair comparison, at angles that high you're out of the range they're designed to work at. where as you're at the lower end of the range that the UPZ will work.

Also, get on a modern board designed for the softboot rider and it will blow your mind compared to one of the old CK decks.

[felix]

yea, I was out for 8 hours straight on softboots yesterday and I started to feel that way about heelsides... but toesides feel awesome, getting my waist back over the back of the board and tweaking the style. Even with 29.5cm boots and 15 -9 angles, I still got my knee dragging on every toeside ;)

hardboots look like awesome tools for carving, but honestly I haven't touched mine in a while... there's so much more freedom to play anywhere on the mountain in softboots, not just carve, but I guess carving is why most people are here eh!

Feeling the same about it. I love to ride 25/0 on softboots and its very nice carving as long as you don't make very agressive heelsideturns or try to lay it down on heelside. Secondly with this type of setup going down really steep and hard corn and jumpturning onto the heelside is not easy at all (well with a tanker at least). Once I go for 10/25, heelside gets much better, jumpturns onto backside quicker and easier to absorb chatter, however frontside doesn't feel as nice anymore. Still better all around compromise. Although I feel more comfy with 25/0, overall my riding is worse. On new boards heelside will still work perfectly for carving with 25° difference, but once that board is at the end of the lifetime I really start noting how bad that heelside really is.

Carving in softboots is still a lot of fun, especially when the runs are very soft. Saturday I outcarved a many hardbooters in my softboot setup, as the slopes were simply too soft but it had been hard to tell as one the upper mountain lots of new snow had fallen while being at the carpark it did look like a hard day (lucky those who trusted the avy bulletin). Few hours later nearly all off them came back with soft equipment. On days with hard conditions it's rather the other way people are switching though.

If only my softboots were so comfy as my hardboots!!!!!!!!!

I already use the Thermoflex liners in my softies but still not as comfy!

[Puddy Tat]

Still way better, harder charging, less effort, less pain, more grip on the h/boots. Try it for yourself.

And you certainly think Raichles 121. 727 never existed, just funny written 1s... You'll probably find that majority of the 4 buckle boots are better then the low-cuffed 3 buckle 121s.

I agree the number is 121... I took another look at the boots the 1's are extremely stylized. You'll have to give me a break on that I picked them up 74 years ago... err I mean 14 years ago.

I replaced these with the five buckle RTR's because the effort required to close the buckles when the boot was getting supportive enough to carve was ridiculous. I like the RTR's though haven't had enough time to get out and give them a serious run. If Rabbit hill in Edmonton hasn't closed I'll take them out on Friday and see what they can do. The couple of runs I have made on them at the (short) Edmonton Ski Club had them performing much better than the old 121s in terms of the support and amount of effort required. 14 year difference in technology (duh) :).

I picked the UPZs over going with a Deeluxe (Raichle) AF700 (or Track 700) because I got a really good response from Dan Yoja when I was looking for boots in the last half of this season.

[Jon Dahl]

I'm actually duplicating a Checker Pig from the 80's right now for a customer.

Only Sean could make pigs fly!!!

When are you ready to start duplicating 192 Tankers???

[Puddy Tat]

that's hardly a fair comparison, at angles that high you're out of the range they're designed to work at. where as you're at the lower end of the range that the UPZ will work.

Also, get on a modern board designed for the softboot rider and it will blow your mind compared to one of the old CK decks.

I'm not saying I can't carve as hard on soft boots as I can in hardboots. I'm just saying that I think the effort required to carve to the same degree is higher in softies. This statement is far less true than it was ten years ago, because modern soft boots are far more supportive, especially laterally.

Ok fair enough the CK board is fourteen years old... I agree the technology changes. I don't have a real problem with this board for soft boot carving. It's essentially an all mountain board that is stiff enough that the nose won't fold and heavy enough that it won't get kicked around in the crud. Back when I was single and buying a board or two every year, I'd look at replacing it and eating mac and cheese for a couple of months. These days it's my wife and kids who have to eat that as well. If I bought a new board to replace this one I won't be riding it much after my wife kicks me in the kneecaps. :). She was good enough to let me replace my soft and hard boots this year. I'm only back boarding because I taught my six year old daughter (and had a friend teach my wife) to board this year.

I can't reduce my boot angles because I'm 6'2 with a 10.5 to 11 foot. The Burton Driver X boot is a size 12. At 30/30 angles in softboots I was booting out and getting kicked out of my trench as I went into the midpoint of the carve. The Driver X boots didn't seem to have any problems with lateral support at the 45/40 angles though. Prior to this I was soft boot carving in a boot that was far less supportive than a modern freestyle softboot. So I'm not too suprised that I didn't have too many problems with the high angles.

A board can be railed quite well in soft or hard boots. My main point of the original post was that I'm not sure if the softies will remain as consistently stiff over time as the hard boots will.

[mrjamie]

if you want low-angled carves, buy risers for your softboot setup!

[KingCrimson]

I was carving very hard yesterday with a 27/10, heelside wasn't very happy, toeside was incredible.

Little bit of ankle pain, but it sorted itself out.

[photodad2001]

As a boarder who has never put on a pair of hard boots but has been carving (only seriously this year, but was laying it out back in 92) I have recently added a strap to the top of my high back and made such strides that I'm questioning whether or not I even need hard boots. The additional strap I've added to my Burton SI system has made me question my board more than anything. For the first time I've put both hands and in addition my elbow on the snow (in Ohio crud even) and I felt that my board was way too flexy. My next step is to get a carving board and to see where my binding/boot setup takes me from there. I'm looking at buying a Burton just to make things even more rebelous. Soft boots, 3rd strap, Burton board. Ought to get some tempers flaring I imagine.:lol::lol::lol:

[leeho730]

Just joined the bandwagon. ;)

Got Prior ATV 161 on Catek FR2 Limited and 32 Forecast (size 8). I'm 5'7", 154lbs, binding angles are 30/21 with 2 degrees outward canting on rear binding and 6mm of lift (2 spacers). Stance width is 20". Absolutely no toe drag, the board is stiff enough to carve on softies but soft enough to negotiate moguls, reacts well and forgiving, fun and relaxing to ride. Almost feels like the board is made for soft boot carving.

Still ride my Swoard 168M (55/48) on early morning when the grooming is good and there is no crowd. But when the slope gets chopped up and gets crowded, I won't hesitate to switch to my soft carving setup.

My next shopping list is Madd BX 163 (with carbon butterfly) but I don't know if Madd will ship to New Zealand...

[John Gilmour]

No less than 30 seconds ago I was talking about going snowboarding. I can get a ticket to new Zealand for $190. I could be there in a week. then my email dinged with your post...

I need to film a little more on 360 carves too...

Put me up and I'll coach you and bring you a Mad BX board....older model.. You can have it for $350.

My friend Travis McLain is down there now and says the snow has been great in treble cone area. Whats good conditions down there... which area?

If you get a tinkler top sheet I'll dial it in for you. That would ride better anyhow- after you figure how you like it- you can epoxy it on.

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Penny stock picks

[leeho730]

What's the spec (length, tech) for Madd BX board you mentioned? Thanks!

[John Gilmour]

It is a low profile nose I think 161cm with a ridiculous amount of effective edge.. Tons of grip very light... Likes a 1 degree blend from the nose into a 4 degree side about 20 cm in.

Weighs like nothing. Has carbon fiber inserts under the top sheet near foot pressure area.

Blue color with linear graphics... no madd boy.. on it though- newer graphics.

Its a racer..made to be light and fast... it will not last 5 seasons of riding hammering ice.. you would get about 2 good seasons on it before hte edges are worn down.. You ride it aggressive and it is a very very rewarding ride..If you are not a higher level rider you can still ride it but you need to learn how to feed it good input. It lands air so smooth. I can mod it out nicely. You'd paypal me $200 and Banker $150 paypal for it since I sold it. it is not the current model, but I happen to like this model and was really excited about it.

I actually need to spec a womens model- for Mike Bankers Ex, and I need a high performance all terrain swallowtail for next season... Who knows...??

I think it is a 9.25-9.75 sidecut..

JG

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Yamaha Ybr 125

[leeho730]

Thanks!

Sounds fantastic! Looks like it's got a good sidecut and stiffer than ATV, and I kinda felt that ATV was a bit too soft for me- no wonder some people used quadraxial glass fibres or stiffened it up.

At the moment I'm juggling two possible options: either buy it and use it when I trounce ATV, or buy new Madd BX (well, provided that the board can be shipped to NZ). I am really keen to try carbon butterfly though, because I loved the edge grip and torsional stiffness of my Swoard. Basically when I bought ATV I was looking for a wider, longitudinally slightly less stiffer version of Swoard with moderate sidecut (~9m) and wider waist (at least 23cm) to use on the groom (and might race) with a bit of freeriding.

John, do you ship the board to NZ? Thanks!

[John Gilmour]

HA HA hA.... No I think you misunderstood me.. I would bring it with me to NZ and go riding with YOU.... I don't know my way around there and have a awful sense of direction.

You wouldn't want to pay customs duty on a new board anyway..

I would only sell it at that price if I got to ride...

Otherwise I can sell it for $700 in 4 months. But it is a great board, I really like it. And you would want me to show you how to power it into turns- or you might not understand it's capabilities. It took me about 10 days of riding one before I knew how to power it up... and define the correct tune... Very ncie though. really good if you get knocked off your line and need to aggressively take it back.

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DEMEROL REHAB FORUM

[Ernie00]

190$ to go to new zeland ? Are you kayaking there ? Leaving from here (montreal) it's at least 2700$ and Up. Go for it at that price ! :)

[leeho730]

Haha, just for a future reference, when I decide to buy a board from you again and you're not coming to NZ :D I don't mind paying customs, I'm a leftist after all. ;)

Actually, I'm going to Queenstown on 10th August and going to Wanaka on the 12th (leaving on the 17th). Do you want to meet me up there? We can go to Treble Cone and also see your friend there. I may or may not be able to bring my 4WD but I can show you around the lake, place and I know a local there, a good friend of mine. Dunno where Shania Twain leaves, though...

And you can teach me how to ride BW. ;)

How's that sound?

[photodad2001]

When the bootsies lock into the fin-danglies the narblies yonk on the jibe!!!!

Here's a bloke dat neva spent a single jiblet, persnukle, nor even horfax in a pair of stiff hard snangles or even a per-janglies. I gets mine off ridin' bare to the knarblie-warblies. Wide as the board is long. I like puttin' it down when the frosty white is groomed nice and fary-fin smooth like. Puts the presure on the knees and watches the milky white spray like mother's milky smooth the frosty glimer-glam while touching the crystal shards.

I'm singin' in the rain!!!!!!

Outie like a biker at a milk bar.

[Cindy Kleh]

I've been racing on softies, and I know that I could get faster if I switched to a HB set up, but I have two bad knees that don't take torquing well. All that added control in the ankle and foot will put more pressure on the knees. Every time I break in a new pair of soft boots, my knees kill until the boots are soft enough. (Breaking them in means jumping and dancing on them.)

I use low angles for the same reason. 18/-3. I try to make up for my set up by keeping the weight even, pulling up my edge and getting my weight solidly over the other one. (Oh, and sheer determination to kick butt racing helps.)

[John Gilmour]

I was thinking, that if I do come down to New

Zealand, it would be in the next two weeks. I

certainly could bring your board with me at that time.

I'm going to have to see where Travis, former Burton

snowboard's team member, has gone snowboarding. I know

he is going to Argentina after that -- and I might do

the same.

I'll get in touch with you soon.

Do you have Skype? Or AOL Instant Messenger, or iChat?

I'll videoconference with you and show you the snowboard.

John

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VAPORIZER WHOLESALER

[John Gilmour]

190$ to go to new zeland ? Are you kayaking there ? Leaving from here (montreal) it's at least 2700$ and Up. Go for it at that price ! :)

I also can hit Sidney for $150 from Aspen..the catch.. it is standby only

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Marijuana strain green crack

[Jack M]

I've been racing on softies, and I know that I could get faster if I switched to a HB set up, but I have two bad knees that don't take torquing well. All that added control in the ankle and foot will put more pressure on the knees. Every time I break in a new pair of soft boots, my knees kill until the boots are soft enough. (Breaking them in means jumping and dancing on them.)

So in other words, you have no idea what snowboarding in hardboots will do to your knees, yes?

:P

[John Gilmour]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindy Kleh

I've been racing on softies, and I know that I could get faster if I switched to a HB set up, but I have two bad knees that don't take torquing well. All that added control in the ankle and foot will put more pressure on the knees. Every time I break in a new pair of soft boots, my knees kill until the boots are soft enough. (Breaking them in means jumping and dancing on them.)

I use low angles for the same reason. 18/-3. I try to make up for my set up by keeping the weight even, pulling up my edge and getting my weight solidly over the other one. (Oh, and sheer determination to kick butt racing helps.)

If your knees hurt riding soft boots- it is likely that your set up or riding technique is partly to blame. If you walk with constant pain then there is not much that can be done. But if you can walk and do daily activities without pain- then you can likely modify your set up and technique so that you can ride pain free. Just my .02

If you -extend/or place- your joints into a vulnerable position prior to turn initiation and then hit something jarring- you will just aggravate your knees. Having your set up so that the system responds to you while your knees are in a position where they are not tweaked.. is important for long term pain free riding. For instance... women often ride boards that are far too wide for them requiring larger body (gross) movements than if the board fit them properly in width and flex.. SO too stiff a board with boots that do not have enough leverage (the boots for women are softer and their protective support can be overwhelmed by a board that is too stiff) with low angles can have the same effect. If you try to move away from the board centerline in a binding that is not set up properly- you will put your joints at a point of stress in their range of motion, and then suddenly the board will grab or worse..chatter for a bit before it grabs.. this is not ideal. It will cause you pain immediately or within a few runs- maybe days at best unless you have the jelly joints of a 15 year old girl.

Being dialed in properly will reduce the effect of a board that is too wide , but is still ABSOLUTELY not a solution to the pain. You will still have pain because your gear is levering against you and causing too much force on your joints into too small an area.. you'll get knee inflammation as a result.

For that reason getting on a softer but narrow alpine board with a lower performance softer hard boot just might be the ticket for you. At least you could get a proper width board. For instance if you are under a size 8.5 womens and under 140lbs - a very narrow soft flexing (defintely Sub 18.0 cm possibly a 16 .0 or lower) Virus board likely would feel amazing.

But riding a 21.0 cm waist medium stiff mens race board with stiff bindings, and medium stiff mens boots if you have a foot size under 8.5 womens- would feel to you like An average carver man might feel riding Super stiff technica ski boots riding at sub 40 degree angles with step in Cateks and a 1.5 inch thick Burton stock board made custom for Jasey Jay Anderson but that was 25 cm wide while he had size 9 mens feet. It just would not be comfortable and would require too much input. The board would have too much of a leverage advantage on you. All your joints would suffer (as the system has too much leverage on your joints) and you would just discount Alpine as being bad for your joints- when in fact it is not. You can ride building up muscle mass and actually smooth your cartilage in your knees. I have done this and now my knees do not crunch when I bend them- I attribute this to a good alpine set up. Same thing with a good soft boot set up and technique... but you get better results with alpine- it is my knee therapy.

There are also soft boots that have been designed with bad amounts of forward flex too so what you are saying might be related to the flex pattern of the boot you have selected. I reject many (like over 80% of the soft boots made) softboots that have funky flex patterns because I know they will cause me ankle and knee pain for a long time before they break in.... until which they are "breaking in" ...ME. causing injury and stress/soreness that is needless.

With a hardboot that is sized and fitted right.. there is no real break in period except perhaps for the liner. The hinge flexes immediately.

Without being fit right- your gear is GUARANTEED TO WORK AGAINST YOU and will fight you at every turn- and force you to make unnatural movements which can lead to repetitive stress injuries over time... that is just the way it is... Could you imagine if Tony Stark fit his Iron Man suit wrong and put the joints in the wrong place? Well soft boots and hard boots are no different. He moves pretty smoothly in the movie (The non CG stuff) and that is because they designed the joints well in his suit, Fortunately in Alpine there is only one major joint to align- it is not hard- but so few people do it right. IMHO when anyone fits any boot- soft or hard they should see where the boot naturally flexes and then use that point to align your ankle so that that your ankle sits neither too high or too low in the boot. After all, don't you want your ankle to bend where the boot does? I very rarely see ski shops adjust the liner for height to help align the ankle joint.

In fact - if you watch the interviews... Robert Downey Jr. says in the yahoo clips that he thinks his Iron Man boots are better than ski boots.... that is because he was fitted correctly..

http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1808411893/video/7634399/

watch "the cast talks to yahoo. start watching after 2:34 - is where he talks about it

You have to understand that a stilted movement caused by gear that is not hingeing and flexing correctly and a foot or leg that is rotating wrong in this gear is a recipe for an orthopedic injury than can easily be avoided.

From your description.. I would bet good money that your deck is too wide for you- I would guess you are missing out on at least 30-40% of your natural riding ability. I know if I go to a board that is too wide and stiff and am forced to ride low angles.. I just look like any other intermediate guy on the slopes- going a bit too fast without 100% control. And I am not kidding when I use the term "intermediate"... it kills my riding that much.

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Ecigarette Forum

[willywhit]

Do you have Skype? Or AOL Instant Messenger, or iChat?

I'll videoconference with you and show you the snowboard.

John

JG,

still waiting to set up that mac chat

[John Gilmour]

I set your computer up good... didn't I?

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Mac games

[willywhit]

JG,

I'll post those pics in a bit, wife is hoggin' the mac right now:freak3: