BlueB Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 I still push-pull the board, or sometimes cross-over. Gradual weight transfer towards the tail included too, but just gentle. Now, my board has way stiffer tail then nose, it might differ on a uniform flexed board... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 This advice is just to get a basic carve going. You can definitely adjust radius if you want to. Increased pressure, edge angle, rotational or counter-rotational forces and "tailing", or back-foot pivoting can all tighten or relax your radius of turn. The big factor here is still SCR, so it will be hard to do SL turns with a GS radius and vice versa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 you have to be more dynamic through the radius of the turn with the push pull but you definitely still control the board radius. I find that if I drive my body down into the board It'll hold until I run out of room to drop down. I time that drop to match the turn short turns I drop hard long turns its a gradual thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 I'll match my set up to snow condtions. Also if the snow is trashed by late afternoon.. I might switch to soft boots. It also gives my feet some relief to switch between setups. Softboots are not thrilling...but at the same time the extra slop helps to suck up a lot of imperfect snow and at times with ragged snow I feel more relaxed traveling fast on soft boots...not to panic stop mind you...but less in fear of an edge catch due to not noticing something in flat light. I ride a Rossignol 159 Split tail (which BTW has a great flex pattern for a Rossignol.. in fact it rides nothing like a Rossignol) Union Force DLX Bindings- though I want try to transfer the straps and highback to Catek Freeride baseplates (I like the highback to have some give in moguls and chop) 48 front and 41 rear with 2000 Salomon Malamutes size 27.0 Front binding heelcup extended slightly and disc offset towards heel, and rear with heelcup moved in and disc offset to toe. What a spectacular differnce in riding effort it is when you get the toe offset dialed perfectly (rear gas pedal is at the middle setting) ... like a dream for extended traverses. rear highback is slightly more angled than the front. Front highback is slightly angled but not so much that I can not stand straight up to relax. Everytime I put someone in the same size softboots that is goofy in my set up...even when they are completely unfamiliar with riding high stance angles- they adapt immediately when shown the body position and within 10 turns they rip. They just can't believe it is a powder board that has the friendly flex pattern like a forgiving freecarve deck. Board has a 3 degree side edge with Massive detuing of the nose and only 125 cm of effective edge. I am sure there is a better deck out there for freecarving in softboots (never summer, Madd BX, etc...) ... but I wanted the powder versatility without the rear leg burn. So I opted for the split tail that looked most all around in shape and size...... If I hadn't seen the Judge... I would have band sawed a spilt tail into an existing directional freeride deck and perhaps added a layer of glass to the tail fully expecting its life to be about a single season of thrashing. My only wish is that it was a 164 cm. ________ Vaporizer wiki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmartshopper Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 +1 Mr. Gilmour... I share your sentiments on when and how to get the best of both worlds. Cool that you found a powder board that could satisfy you all around too... Can I ask how big of a guy you are on that 159 swallowtail? ________ ULTRAM REHAB FORUMS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 +1 Mr. Gilmour... I share your sentiments on when and how to get the best of both worlds. Cool that you found a powder board that could satisfy you all around too... Can I ask how big of a guy you are on that 159 swallowtail? 5'10" , 27.0 malamute and about 180lbs... 172-168 if I hit the gym. I do beat the crap out of this board.... and force it to carve at high speeds by doing boot grabs and pushing the boots downward while in the apex and post apex of a carve. (rear boot for heelside, front boot for toeside).... incredibly it hasn't delammed yet.... but I'll have to take a true bar to it tonight and see if it is still flat. ________ HERBAL GRINDER Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photodad2001 Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 "Drive the knee. YOU GOTTA PROBLEM WITH THAT?!" "No Sensei." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 As seen on eBay, in an item's description: "Big pants, wide stance… No chance!!!" Just beautifull - hardbooter's haiku :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 Gee, that is a real bummer...sorry to hear softboot setups are not Thrilling? yes but blast by carving low by the ladies on a race board ... The girls say "Why can't you do that? Is he a pro?' - Their guy friend, Joe Blow says "yeah I could do that too if I was on a race board." But blast by carving low by the ladies on a splittail powder board in soft boots- the girls say "Why can't you do that? Is he a pro?' Their guy friend, Joe Blow says say "uh.... probably a pro" The thrilling part comes doesn't happen on the snow... it's later. So softboot carving has a true purpose. The fact is,.. most people can ride softboots well...if only they set them up to work for them not against them. Joe Blow just is dialed in all wrong. ________ MAGIC FLIGHT LAUNCH BOX REVIEW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmartshopper Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 But blast by carving low by the ladies on a splittail powder board in soft boots- the girls say "Why can't you do that? Is he a pro?' "So.... How's your girl?" It is a funny little dynamic though... It's fun to get looks or comments cuz you can rail is softies. You do tend to get more of a skier response on alpine gear though... and that ain't cool! Interesting how much activity there is lately on bomber about softcarving (many people making it clear right in their user names that they ride softies - NOT HARDBOOTERS - THE HORROR!) Fact is, if carving wasn't fun as hell, softbooters wouldn't do it at all. So you might ask yourself - if it's so damn fun - why the hell wouldn't you want to amp it up a bit - at least part time (I wouldn't give up softies myself). Limited $$ is a good excuse - but I know that's not really the issue for most posters here. Driving a EVO VIII is fun. Drive Michael Schumachers F1 Ferrari for a year, then see how thrilling the EVO seems. Sure, I'd still love an EVO for a daily driver - but if you'll let me, I'll take the F1 out for a spin when I get the chance. Carving softies is way fun.... after you get it, it's just no fun riding when it's too icy to get an edge. But the simple fact is that no soft boot setup is going to buckle your knees and pop your punk a$$ into the next turn like alpine gear (ew! The "A" word!). It's simple physics. Nothing like a few good hours of groom in the morning, then switching over and chilling with the rest of the world. Get there early while your friends are still hungover and won't see you, and give it a try it some time. 5'10" , 27.0 malamute and about 180lbs... 172-168 if I hit the gym.I do beat the crap out of this board.... and force it to carve at high speeds by doing boot grabs and pushing the boots downward while in the apex and post apex of a carve. I was wondering too about it blowing out in softer snow with the short running length. I'm trying to thin the herd and replace two freeride boards with a single all purpose one - and this was one concern. I'm taller, but about your weight. I ride a bigger heavy old stiff board that I can carve on softies really well with - but is too heavy to swing around well in the bumps. Then there's a light quick board that doesn't hold an edge terribly well. I have a separate board for powder mornings, so I've been eyeing the Donek Wide/MaddBX & Prior AMF... looking to go short as possible for a tight radius and low swing weight. Good to hear it's working for you. ________ GAMO MATCH GRAINS WADCUTTER 500CT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 You see -that's the odd thing. Dial in hardboots all wrong..and hey.. you still have TONS of leverage. Softboots don't have anywhere near the lateral leverage of hardboots. So what you end up doing instead is start the board arcing with down pressure over the sidecut (boots gotta be over it) , tip it, and drive downwards to continue your inclination. I look at softboots as a fun way of self handicapping. AS far as I am concerned...why not get people psyched to carve on anything????? Softboot carving is the gateway drug to hardboots. AND... like most addictive things... first one's free. All you need is to dial in your set up. All it takes is one day of riding chalk on steeps in your soft boots with your hardboot friends...to realize... dang! I'm really missing out on something here. So I ALWAYS encourage people to set up their softboots for carving.... Then once they can carve softboots well with higher stance angles... they can go nearly directly to hardboots with very little learning curve and minimal frustration. So many hardbooters are fearful that carving on softboots will be enough for people... well it just isn't so. The guys who say they gave up hardboots for their softboots... well I find they can't really rail their softboots either...so I figure carving really wasn't for them. And most of the time when probe a bit deeper I find out that their hardboot set up was a Burton alp or M5 or PJ or Stat or Ultra Prime, or cap construction crap with crummy ardboots that were sized too large. The only exception that proves the rule. Vin from Out Of Bounds snowboard shop in Killington (Pete Jacobs, Liam too- and lets toss softbootsailor in there too!). Vin rode fast alpine decks, a nice 24/7 with a tinkler top sheet hard boots... but Vin preffered softies. and rides them to this day. I think there are several reasons why this is so. Vin is lighter I think under 140- so he had to work harder to flex the decks and it was easier for him to overpower a soft boot board than an Alpine board with super stiff hard boots. Also he rode at Killington where the slopes are completely trashed by 11:30 and often had to open the shop. The soft boot freeride board is clearly his best choice. So for Vin softboots made perfect sense. he could also ride a larger outsole softboot as he was I think a size 7 or 8 and could use the leverage and did not have to worry about boot out. ________ Drug testing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 I look at softboots as a fun way of self handicapping. If your snowboarding consists of simply turning left and right, you might be on to something... So many hardbooters are fearful that carving on softboots will be enough for people... well it just isn't so. The guys who say they gave up hardboots for their softboots... well I find they can't really rail their softboots either...so I figure carving really wasn't for them. And most of the time when probe a bit deeper I find out that their hardboot set up was a Burton alp or M5 or PJ or Stat or Ultra Prime, or cap construction crap with crummy ardboots that were sized too large. Ouch. This comment does little to help the cause. You're straight out alienating me, for one. Preferring soft boots means a person has chosen low performance riding, or an easy way out? I just choose "horses for courses". I won't try to rationalize peoples choices with foolish statement like the previous one. I hardly ever ride alpine anymore, but when I do, not many full time hardbooters can hang. I did my time and the skills haven't gone away... They're just being put to work differently. This is like the stupid debate between "eurocarving" and "race carving". The best can do both and will apply either whenever the urge strikes them. That is the benefit of being super-so-rad. The only exception that proves teh rule. Vin from Out Of Bounds snowboard shop in Killington. He rode fast alpine decks, a nice 24/7 with a tinkler top sheet hard boots... but Vin preffered softies. and rides them to this day. I think there are several reasons why this is so. Vin is lighter I think under 140- so he had to work harder to flex the decks and it was easier for him to overpower a soft boot board than an Alpine board. Also he rode at Killington where the slopes are completely trashed by 11:30 and often had to open the shop So this guy chose soft boots because he couldn't properly flex an alpine board? OK. Your last sentence is probably more accurate and goes aways to pointing out why a good rider should learn to appreciate both setups. I find it pretty shocking when a person of substance in snowboarding, like you sound to me, has such an outlook on this subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmartshopper Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 If your snowboarding consists of simply turning left and right, you might be on to something... I think that's all that's being talked about in the thread... I know I want softies in the chop and powder, and I think that's what others are saying in previous posts. I'd even concede that if I could only have a single board, it would be a freeride board. I just find it interesting that if someone really likes carving and you have the means - why wouldn't you ride hard gear when you have that carving jones - just like you'd ride a powder board in the powder? I contend that a lot of it - for many riders - is image. Alpine snowboarding doesn't fit in with the all-to-ironically labeled 'counter-culture'. I read a lot about Vin too, and have even seen pics... I bet he really can carve the hell out of softboots, but I wonder if he can carve chalk down the headwall of Superstar? I'm willing to eat my words to see it, but I have rarely seen that done in hardboots (not by me of course :rolleyes:) - I am awaiting the day I see it done in softies. Vin is also (to my possibly faulty knowledge) the head snowboard guy for Basin Ski's snowboard side (Surf the earth?). They are RIGHT across the street from the most fashionable, most popular snowboard shop in town - Darkside. From a business perspective, maybe 5 years ago, for a well known Ski oriented shop to contend with the coolest of the cool snowboard shops directly across the street, one could argue that pushing Alpine was not the thing to do. This was roughly when they dropped alpine gear (to their credit - I believe they were the last around Killington to do so - and you certainly lose $$ on product that doesn't sell). ________ Nexium withdraw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 I think that's all that's being talked about in the thread... Fair enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordy Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 I find it pretty shocking when a person of substance in snowboarding, like you sound to me, has such an outlook on this subject. Internet Vs real world... Outlooks are hard to express in a onesided typed "post" We all love to snowboard with or with out support. I like to carve the softys I ride 22 inches and 18 and -9. Or some times 23 inches 18 and -18 I don't have any video to prove it but I think I can make a softy board hold a edge almost anywhere I could trench the race stick.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photodad2001 Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 Internet Vs real world... Outlooks are hard to express in a onesided typed "post" We all love to snowboard with or with out support. I like to carve the softys I ride 22 inches and 18 and -9. Or some times 23 inches 18 and -18 I don't have any video to prove it but I think I can make a softy board hold a edge almost anywhere I could trench the race stick.. I recall the time when I was the only snowboarder at the resort... unless I had my friends with me. That's what has brought me to ec. Now that close to 50 percent of the people in line are on boards I feel out of place. Sure all the resort staff know me, and now my daughter, but I miss being the odd man out. I don't have the hardboots and narrow trench digger, but I get low enough on my softies and 171 Sims. I don't frequent the park but I can get hang time out of speed plus considerable change of incline in the slope. Never lost a BX at my home hill and the one time some kid gave me greif over my "Gotcha" hoody I made his girlfriend embarassed. So, watch the movie "Surfs Up", Yes the one with the Penguins, and learn something from it. I consider myself the chicken. "I can feel it in my nuggets!!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 I look at softboots as a fun way of self handicapping. If your snowboarding consists of simply turning left and right, you might be on to something... Whenyou get right down to it, carving really is simply about turning left and right. Hardboots, plate bindings, alpine boards are merely just a means to an end. Like Gilmour and Bordy, I believe these are great tools to help you carve and enjoy snowboarding in general... but if you know how to carve, then gear matters less. In particular, I definitely believe anyone who CAN'T ride/carve in softboots hasn't really mastered carving and might need to got back and practice some more. So many hardbooters are fearful that carving on softboots will be enough for people... well it just isn't so. The guys who say they gave up hardboots for their softboots... well I find they can't really rail their softboots either...so I figure carving really wasn't for them. Ouch. This comment does little to help the cause. You're straight out alienating me, for one. "The Cause"??? I dislike it when people whip out like "The Cause" or "Good of the Community" "Good of the Sport" to justify their point of view. If your point of view has merit, you shouldn't need to vague collective-metaphysical-constructs to support your arguments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mattyd Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 My setup: 7yo Malamutes New Prior 167 ATV Catek FR2 Pros 45/42 18 inch stance A bit of lift and cant Slightly set-back Still tweaking the new gear because now I can!... Carving in softies... Keep your head up and look well in front of where you are going. Upper body quiet. Use your ankles to initiate the edge. Drive with your knees/legs to accelerate through the turn. More pressure and more ankle angle = harder tighter turn. I have no doubt there are plenty of ways to do this though. Find a technique that suits your style and go for it. Pick up alternatives along the way and incorporate the ones you like. Have fun! Off topic: Couldn't really give a toss about the hardboot - softboot philosophy wank. It's a bit like the skiing - snowboarding argument. If everyone is having fun, then who cares? Isn't the idea to progress your riding and "carve" in all conditions, on all surfaces and try as many different vehicles as possible to do it with? Me, I used to skateboard "dogtown and z-boy" style on all the concrete banks around my place as a kid growing up in the 70s. Then discovered surfing as a teenager and pretty much ditched skating. Girlfriend got me into alpine skiing at 21 and it took over my life for the next few years as I chased the winters north and south. Started boarding 12 years ago, initially as an afternoon break from skiing, then got more and more into it. Ditched the alpine skis 7 seasons ago but will probably get back into it this year when I take my 3yo daughter to the snow for the first time in August. Have been learning to telemark for the last couple of years in the spring slush when I couldn't be bothered boarding. (Now there is a tough art to master!) Will try hardboot boarding next year. Still surf my brains out year-round - "no" boots and no straps! Not yet into the longboard thing but maybe in 30 years (I'm 38 now) when I want to just cruise, it'll be the next challenge. It doesn't pay to be too precious about your own views, or what people are or aren't into. It just displays a narrow-minded pathetic attitude. Appreciate the differences and take the best from everything to improve your own style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tom H. Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 I spend a lot of time on a soft set-up. As stated in this thread, versatility and having the right too for the job makes for more fun. Working your way around the chop, moguls and pow after the groom is gone or the crowds are too tight on a race/carve board is not as fun as ripping it on a soft board. At least for me. My current favorite soft set-up is an Arbor A-Frame 170, SPX90 and Malamutes at 40/35. I think I can rail as hard and low as I do in my hard set up but I don’t have any video or pics to compare, but it sure feels like I do. One thing that hasn’t been mentioned is that, I think, spending quality time carving soft makes you better when you carve hard. I hate to admit it here but I took all of last year and most of the year prior off from my hard set-up. Spent lots of time soft carving. Not intentionally, just worked out that way. And now this season, I broke back out the hard gear and things feel different, better, more precise and consistent. And now this season my time is split; about 1/3 hard, 1/3 soft, and 1/3 telemark. I believe that each benefits from time with the other. Tom H. PS – I was a student of the Vin Q School of carving and I assure you he can carve OL on softies and drop jaws in the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 Whenyou get right down to it, carving really is simply about turning left and right. Hardboots, plate bindings, alpine boards are merely just a means to an end. Like Gilmour and Bordy, I believe these are great tools to help you carve and enjoy snowboarding in general... but if you know how to carve, then gear matters less. In particular, I definitely believe anyone who CAN'T ride/carve in softboots hasn't really mastered carving and might need to got back and practice some more. I'm not knocking Gilmour's way of DOING things. He likes to set up to carve softboots on groomers and can ride varied terrain in that setup, too. Good on him. He does say that "he" looks at softboots this way, so it is all about his style. It's the statement about anyone giving up days spent mostly on hardboots, to ride primarily in softboots as indicating some lack of ability in either, rubs me the wrong way. Once again "horses for courses". On bikes, I'll ride a dirtjump hardtail, an xc bike, a freeride bike, or a dh bike depending on what's on for any given day. I sure wouldn't say that people who rode dh all the time, but went back to trail riding did it because they couldn't handle the action. It might not be because they didn't have the skills... It could be for many other issues, like a better ability to ride differerent trails. "The Cause"??? I dislike it when people whip out like "The Cause" or "Good of the Community" "Good of the Sport" to justify their point of view. If your point of view has merit, you shouldn't need to vague collective-metaphysical-constructs to support your arguments. I don't see where that should go over your head. The "cause" in this case, is simply to not alienate people based on suppositions. Do you really think that the comment "Guys who gave up their hardboots for softboots... well, I find they really can't rail their softboots either, so I figure carving wasn't for them" is an "inclusive" statement? Does it do the "community" any good? It's not accurate where many riders are concerned. I just don't use my hardboots as much as I used to, primarily because I ride in places where "left, right, left" is broken up into "left, left, spin, straightline some bumps, through the pipe, hit a rail, carve a trench and repeat". Dislike that all you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 Still surf my brains out year-round - "no" boots and no straps! Be the first on your continent to run this (next to my brother-in-law)... www.noboard.ca If you get some pow down there (rare, I know) drop the rope and surf that ****. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 To go back to Boarderboys original post, I would again reccommend getting away from higher angles on soft gear. Not because they can't do what you ask of them (carve), but more as a challenge to increase your versatility (everything else and STILL carve). You will get the tail to follow the nose (carve) with lower angles... You'll just have to do things differently, technique wise, to get the same result. I guarantee, however, that lower angles than the ones you're proposing will increase your overall skills, give you more manoueverability and ability to absorb terrain changes. I find compression is vastly improved when you go a little "duck". I made this change a few years back and it did not hinder the carve in any way. For various reasons, it actually made "slarving" turns much more dynamic, as it really encourages hip alignment with the edge at the end of a turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_A Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 Rob, What angles do you ride (duck)? I am guessing 21/-6 or such? Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 It's really slight. In the back, about -2 to -3. Most baseplates flare wider towards the toes, so I just line up the inside of the baseplate so it's 90 degrees to the edge. This allows a deep squat while still maintaining some directional bias for freeriding. I'll turn my front foot to about 25 to 28. Flat enough to put solid pressure edge to edge, but forward enough to be on your toes as you pressure towards the nose, rather than on the side of the foot when you're at lower angles. This is on a 174. On the pipe board, I don't mind more duck in the rear and flatter in the front to create a mutidirectional stance. 20 and -10, or thereabouts. The funny thing is when noboarding, where my feet will just go where they want, I usually wind up at 10 and -10. This feels very natural, but really strange when I'm strapped in. Go figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 interesting the difference in view points. I actually find that I can absorb the terrain better with higher angles. I also find that I am quicker directionally as far as changing edges if my hips are perpendicular to the edges ie. nose to the nose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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