Is this carvable?...not me in this lifetime...

[GeoffV]

I'm sorry, I call BS on this one. Those kinds of pitches are ones where you have to watch your shoulder doesn't hit the snow and knock you off your edge as you traverse it. That's extreme skiing terrain, not race course terrain.

That was my point as well, hence my picture of Tucks. At 65 degrees I can stand straight up on the head wall and reach out and touch the head wall. In order to turn you have to jump out and off the head wall making sure back of the board doesn't clip the headwall. Jump turns are pretty much a must at 65 degrees.

There is no race course with a 65 degree fall line, 65% well that's a different story.

The steepest trail I've ever carved was the double black diamond Corkscrew (skiers left on the Shadow Mountain double lift) at Aspen Mountain at the 05 SES. Man I still dream about carving that trail:D A bunch of us estimated that the pitch on that trail was 45 degrees if not more. So that equates to 100%.

The whole confusion on this thread is % versus degrees. If some one still claims they can carve a 65 degree pitch post some video footage or picture or shut up.

Here is another picture of a pitch that is actually more around 50 degrees degrees. The picture is of Bob Jenney the North Chute.

edit just found this. The local Tucks guys claim the head wall to be any where from 50 to 60 degrees depending on conditions, but that is a guess. If Timefortuckerman.com true, then I've never carved any thing close to being 45 degrees.

[Petrol]

That was my point as well, hence my picture of Tucks. At 65 degrees I can stand straight up on the head wall and reach out and touch the head wall. In order to turn you have to jump out and off the head wall making sure back of the board doesn't clip the headwall. Jump turns are pretty much a must at 65 degrees.

There is no race course with a 65 degree fall line, 65% well that's a different story. . . . . .

<b>

The whole confusion on this thread is % versus degrees..... </b>

I agree...

I also wouldn't consider "Jump-Turning" a "carved" turn....

[Bordy]

I have seen some steep stuff carved. (after being winched) It importent to remember when you carve a pitch that steep you are commiting down the hill not making a traverse where your arm would drag. When you match the grade with your body it doesn't appear or film as steep.

[Bordy]

I agree...

I also wouldn't consider "Jump-Turning" a "carved" turn....

The level of riding has progressed passed the jump turn unless width is a issue.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I have seen some steep stuff carved. (after being winched)

Know any place they groom a 60+ degree slope with a winch-cat? Bear in mind that a run like Corbet's Couloir is only 50 degrees at the top and averages 40. There's some 50+ degree stuff on Delirium Dive at Sunshine, accessible by a gate that only opens if you've got a beacon. They sure as hell ain't grooming that stuff.

60 degrees is really damn steep.

[Rob Stevens]

Know any place they groom a 60+ degree slope with a winch-cat? Bear in mind that a run like Corbet's Couloir is only 50 degrees at the top and averages 40. There's some 50+ degree stuff on Delirium Dive at Sunshine, accessible by a gate that only opens if you've got a beacon. They sure as hell ain't grooming that stuff.

60 degrees is really damn steep.

+1 for sure.

The definition of carving is different from person to person here too.

If you're talking about rail-to-rail, with no pivot, then I have a hard time with claims in the 50's and 60's. Over 45 degrees? I'd just like to see that, as the rider would be very strong and have great tech.

I don't think WB means no skid carving, but I'll let him clarify, as I would still say you're "carving" if you were doing a very high performance sliding turn, like the racers use.

Not much pure carving there.

The steepest thing I've personally seen rail-carved was done in an EC style, using the body drag braking method.

[JJFluff]

The steepest trail I've ever carved was the double black diamond Corkscrew (skiers left on the Shadow Mountain double lift) at Aspen Mountain at the 05 SES. Man I still dream about carving that trail:D A bunch of us estimated that the pitch on that trail was 45 degrees if not more. So that equates to 100%.

I was one of the others riding Corkscrew that day. Absolutely incredible. There is nothing like slapping the heelside edge down, above your head. If you know what I mean. Hopefully this year the same will apply.

[Silver Bullet]

This is a great thread.

I'm with Bordy. 45+ is definitely carvable. One must simply feel comfortable accelerating quickly and hang on while the board takes you for a ride. I've found that a lot of leg strength is required to bleed speed on the steeps. It can also get a bit hairy when you carving edge is above your head. I have on occasion done the 1,000 vert Pete Rose, because the nose of my board didn't swing around like I had hoped;-(

I'm taking the protractor and level to measure some of the slopes I usually ride in Utah. A few steep groomers I've enjoyed recently are Regulator Johnson at the Bird which has a pretty steep roll 1/3 down from the top, the first third of Silver Skis, or is it Silver King at PCMR is quite steep, the last third of Diamond Lane at Solitude as well. There is a pretty steep drop of the Wildflower Downhill at Snowbasin. Does anyone know the pitch of any of these runs? I'm not sure if they exceed 45 deg, but close. Are there any other steep groomers out there in the Wasatch?

[Neil Gendzwill]

According to a post in this thread, some of the runs at Snowbird are in the 45 degree range. I'm not sure how accurate it is. It's hard to find stats on this stuff, most mountains prefer to rely on hype rather than numbers.

[Bordy]

I never mentioned any angles I just said pretty steep. I have had my way with some pitch in my day both here and there (for my euro friends). Including 120 meter ski jump landings. I also have to point out If it holds snow it can be carved, Jeremy Jones has proved it.

I also think many of you think linked carves have to cross the fall line. Not in my world.

[Bordy]

This is a great thread.

I'm with Bordy. 45+ is definitely carvable. One must simply feel comfortable accelerating quickly and hang on while the board takes you for a ride. I've found that a lot of leg strength is required to bleed speed on the steeps. It can also get a bit hairy when you carving edge is above your head. I have on occasion done the 1,000 vert Pete Rose, because the nose of my board didn't swing around like I had hoped;-(

I'm taking the protractor and level to measure some of the slopes I usually ride in Utah. A few steep groomers I've enjoyed recently are Regulator Johnson at the Bird which has a pretty steep roll 1/3 down from the top, the first third of Silver Skis, or is it Silver King at PCMR is quite steep, the last third of Diamond Lane at Solitude as well. There is a pretty steep drop of the Wildflower Downhill at Snowbasin. Does anyone know the pitch of any of these runs? I'm not sure if they exceed 45 deg, but close. Are there any other steep groomers out there in the Wasatch?

I'm with my Utah boys on this there is stuff around here that I can't beleave the cat drivers go down! (since there is no way to go up but they can go around and down) "insert silly ever see Winch cat groom a (insert # of choice) pitch".

Like the top of the Mens down hill at the top of the Basin. (love it but its only groomed for FIS down hills)

Of some of the stuff at the bird or brighton.

There is also some pitch here at PC but again it only gets groomed a few times a year. But when it does its race stock SL board only steep..If you want to EC it.

[jpk]

Harakiri Spot

http://www.mayrhofner-bergbahnen.com/de/100196/100481/harakiri_spot_mayrhofen_steilste_piste_osterreichs.html

[GeoffV]

Harakiri Spot

http://www.mayrhofner-bergbahnen.com/de/100196/100481/harakiri_spot_mayrhofen_steilste_piste_osterreichs.html

:lol: that just made my day

That trail is carvable for sure, I'd love to hit that

Billy if you can carve linked turns all the way down the headwall at Tuckerman's I will bow to you :lol:

I've managed to carve some sort of linked turns halfway down the head wall, but from the top of the lip I'm just worried about keeping my shorts clean.

[Bobby Buggs]

Geoff, love this Pic,

Thinking about transiton to the down hill edge is making my sac shrink:eek:

[willywhit]

Oi, Vai! no helmet ?

is that an old Dynastar board ?

[b0ardski]

Schwietzer winch cats several runs, three of which are 45*; upper kaniksu, always groomed; rip cord, seldom groomed; B-chute is closer to 50*, usually groomed and quite carveable with a sharp slalom board, decent snow & confident skill.

[Kirk]

There is a pretty steep drop of the Wildflower Downhill at Snowbasin.

Ohhhhh, Wildflower... Early morning + Hero Groom + NOBODY ELSE + 197 or 188 Burner = :1luvu: with just a bit of

Have not had the Prior on that one yet, but the season is still young. Pow & moguls all the times I've been there this season.

[GeoffV]

is that an old Dynastar board ?

nope Willy it's a Burton M6, I think it is the the last year they made asyms 95?. It will be out in full force at the ECES.

No helmet, yeah I was a college punk when that picture was taken I know better now:smashfrea

[Bordy]

:

Billy if you can carve linked turns all the way down the headwall at Tuckerman's I will bow to you :lol:

I've managed to carve some sort of linked turns halfway down the head wall, but from the top of the lip I'm just worried about keeping my shorts clean.

Start Bowing Geoff I grew up in NH and was riding race boards (checker pig) at tucks in the corn at age 17 Theres a reason I moved to the rockys:eek:

Bring on any Groomed pitch and I'll destroy that also. I also rode a 200 hooger race shape(with TD1s and ski boots)in the back country for years when I moved to UT and have linked that bad boy down some Steeeeeeeep un groomed firm pitch. Also I put the same shape hooger down corbits for you jackson fans. left trenchs all the way out (its a bit narrow up top). Now as I am older and wiser I ride soft boots If its not groomed.

On a side note most of the US alpine team is going to snowbird today to rail turns in the big mountain comp their today.

Whats that say about upper level alpine riders diversity????

[GeoffV]

Start Bowing Geoff I grew up in NH and was riding race boards (checker pig) at tucks in the corn at age 17 Theres a reason I moved to the rockys:eek:

Fine Mr. Bordy....will this do:lol:

[Bordy]

I love to ride steeps, alot of it has to do with short steep new england action, I have always received comments at events about my ability to rail steeps. I am sure there are othere guys out there who can rip turns on them better then me. I have tried to rail alot of things, I have fallen a bunch, and rag dolled down stuff and payed the price with injurys.

Funny bowing picture:D

The first guy I ever saw carve a steep un groomed pitch was Steve Sanders at temple mtn NH he used to link heel to toe side on a rock face that would have Climbable Ice on it (some years) unless there was new snow that would stick to it. I never tried it my self but watched him and the resort owner Sandy Enaguess leave a carve and transition on it most amazing part was Sandy was on old school SL skiis.

[crucible]

Anything greater in pitch than 60 degrees starts to diverge from the realm of ridable to full on snow and ice climbing.

The ice climbing rating scale starts to grade ice climbs in excess of 60 degrees in pitch WI3 (out of a scale from 1-7)and 70-85 degrees starts tom look vertical when you're at the base.

At 60 degrees, you would have do do a modified jump turn to initiate your downhill edge, because your uphill shoulder would literally be six inches from the slope angle.

I have never attempted riding in couloirs greater than 50 degrees unroped and un-belayed.

If you really want to open your mind to what's been done, get a copy of Andrew McLean's "The Shooting Gallery" guidebook to the steep ski descents he has done in the Wasatch. Stepen Koch is also another guy whon has done some extreme descents on a snowboard.

[gdboytyler]

I can believe the ability to carve anything that can be groomed.

But when people start boasting of 60+ degree slopes that are groomed, that gets unbelievable.

Here's one of the rating systems for ski/snowboard descents. The rating system currently ends at around 60 degrees.

http://www.wildsnow.com/articles/ratings/s_ratings_article_web.htm

S0, Flat ground or slightly rolling terrain. Usually a flat ski tour or nordic trail. All hills can be easily descended on foot or with novice downhill technique.

S1, Easy. Low-angled.. Only novice downhill technique required.

S1+, Slightly harder than S1.

S2-, Angle up to 25 degrees. Easy terrain such as broad slopes. Ability to sideslip and stem-turn will get you down. Avalanches unlikely or impossible.

S2, Longer pitches than S2-, can be a steep narrow trail or actual glisse descent. Up to 25 degrees. Novice skiers or snowboarders can handle this terrain with basic technique.

S2+, Angle near or at 25 degrees, but rougher terrain or difficult snow requires more technique.

S3-, Slopes up to 30 degrees, similar to an easy "expert" run at a resort. Avalanches uncommon but possible with unstable snow.

S3, Slopes around 35 degrees, similar to an "expert" run at a resort. A skier or rider capable of S3 should have solid technique in any type of snow. This is often prime avalanche terrain. Example: Tuning Fork on Torrey's Peak, Colorado, via easiest entrance at looker's right.

S3+, Same angle as S3 (around 35 degrees); but terrain features (dogleg turns, rollovers, trees, ridges, etc.) make the skiing slightly more difficult. Again, this is prime avalanche terrain.

S4-, Slopes over 35 degrees but under 45 degrees, without terrain obstacles and with safe runouts. Avalanche danger is always a concern.

S4, Slopes over 35 degrees but under 45 degrees, usually steeper than an S4-, may have fall potential and terrain obstacles such as narrows. Avalanche danger always a concern.

S4+, Slopes just under 45 degrees, may have fall potential and terrain obstacles. S4+ is borderline extreme skiing and snowboarding. Avalanches are slightly less common on these slopes, but nonetheless occur enough to be a concern.

S5-, Slopes at 45 degrees or slightly over. Fall potential on firm snow. This is bonafide extreme skiing. Because snow can't easily accumulate at these angles, slab avalanches are less common, but can occur. Loose snow avalanches are common.

S5, Slopes between 45 degrees and 55 degrees. Technique for steep terrain required if turns are made. Fall potential almost always present. Loose snow avalanches are common, especially after new snow accumulations; slab avalanches are uncommon.

S5+, Most of the route near or at 55 degrees. This is technical extreme terrain. Fall potential always exists. Death from a fall likely if steep sections are long. Loose snow avalanches are common, especially after new snow accumulations; slab avalanches are uncommon.

S6-, Short sections steeper than 55 degrees. Loose snow avalanches are common, especially after new snow accumulations; slab avalanches are uncommon.

S6, Most of the route steeper than 55 degrees. This is extreme terrain that's safe for only the elite athlete if turns are made. Sideslipping and ropework may be mandatory. Loose snow avalanches are common, especially after new snow accumulations; slab avalanches are uncommon.

S6+, Same angles as S6, but with extenuating circumstances, such as cliffs, icefalls, and other obstacles. Avalanches are the least of your concerns. You might be better off on crampons so you can claim a first ascent.

S7-, A number of sections approaching 60 degrees steep; short sections may be 60 degrees. Fall potential a given. Avalanches? Who cares.

S7, Much of the route is around 60 degrees steep. Ropework may be optional or mandatory and should be clarified in rating and text description. Any avalanches probably happened before you got there.

S7+, Same angles as S7, with skiable snow connected by technical maneuvers such as small jumps. Ropework may be optional or mandatory and should be clarified in rating.

S8 The future

[queequeg]

The first guy I ever saw carve a steep un groomed pitch was Steve Sanders at temple mtn NH he used to link heel to toe side on a rock face that would have Climbable Ice on it (some years) unless there was new snow that would stick to it. I never tried it my self but watched him and the resort owner Sandy Enaguess leave a carve and transition on it most amazing part was Sandy was on old school SL skiis.

Billy, I used to ride at temple Mtn at night when I was in school in NH (in Rindge). I seem to remember there having been a pretty significant posse of carvers there in the early/mid nineties. The first time I ever saw a hardbooter was at Temple and I bought my first PJ the very next day. Is the rock-face you're talking about called Allisons Run, far to skiiers-right coming down the mountain, near the bottom? I don't think I ever tried carving down that - usually just slid down it or if it wasn't super icy, try a few jump-slide turns. I remember it being super steep but short enough that you could get away with trying stuff out on it.

[kmartshopper]

One of my favorite sites.... Kind of puts the east coast / west coast thing in perspective.

http://3dskimaps.com/

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