skategoat Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 All the WC riders I've met were modest and unassuming, almost to a fault. Very few of them are into self promotion. Even Jasey, who is an advertiser's dream (bilingual family man who could pass for Mark Wahlberg), hasn't updated his website in five years. They're not going to put up vids that say "Hey look at me ride". I honestly wish they would do more promotion. Or the national federations do it for them. It would help the sport. And I'd like to see them put up some videos on Youtube. Instructional stuff, not show-off stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.T. Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 no offense to anyone is intended [rant on] people get over your f#$king selves!! This thread reads like a bunch of bickering old ladies! You know the saying, opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one and everyone thinks everyone else’s stinks. Next thing you know, everybody’s going to grab their rulers and brag about how long their “member” is. Isn’t the point to get out and ride?!? Ride what ever it is that you want to ride, whether it’s you 1990 Burton or your brand new metal Coiler that just showed up yesterday. Guess what? I ride a board that is different than yours. I ride with my bindings at different settings than you do. I wear different boots than you do. Guess that means that I can't ride as good as you, right? Who gives a rat’s ass?!? Do what works for you! Each and every one of us are different, we demand different characteristics from our gear. Ride what you like, regardless of what it is!!!! Try other equipment when you have a chance, that way you know if you are still happy with what you currently ride. Go to SES, ECES, OES. Ride with people other than your normal group of friends. Are the new boards different? Yes. Are new boards better than old boards? Get on one, answer the questions for yourself! Experience life and riding to its fullest!! Less bitching, more riding! [/rant off] thank you and have a nice day :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdboytyler Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 How are you coming up with such a BS chart. What research have you do? ...That is probably the stupidest post I've ever read here. My theory is based on personal experience, field observation and watching videos. How can you disprove my theory? What measurable component of free-riding or racing is going to show a greater than 10% improvement when the WEW (weekend warrior) jumps from a Burton FP to a Kessler? Revolutionary is jumping from the Burton Elite 150 to the Burton FP. Phil’s post would have been much better with this graphic: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photodad2001 Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 Anyone have any knowledge about Burton's R17 Addicted boards? They're 04 and 05 models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boardman73 Posted January 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 no offense to anyone is intended[rant on] people get over your f#$king selves!! This thread reads like a bunch of bickering old ladies! You know the saying, opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one and everyone thinks everyone else’s stinks. Next thing you know, everybody’s going to grab their rulers and brag about how long their “member” is. Isn’t the point to get out and ride?!? Ride what ever it is that you want to ride, whether it’s you 1990 Burton or your brand new metal Coiler that just showed up yesterday. Guess what? I ride a board that is different than yours. I ride with my bindings at different settings than you do. I wear different boots than you do. Guess that means that I can't ride as good as you, right? Who gives a rat’s ass?!? Do what works for you! Each and every one of us are different, we demand different characteristics from our gear. Ride what you like, regardless of what it is!!!! Try other equipment when you have a chance, that way you know if you are still happy with what you currently ride. Go to SES, ECES, OES. Ride with people other than your normal group of friends. Are the new boards different? Yes. Are new boards better than old boards? Get on one, answer the questions for yourself! Experience life and riding to its fullest!! Less bitching, more riding! [/rant off] thank you and have a nice day :D about now im sorry i ever started this thread and jeez u guys do love to bitch at eachother:flamethro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willow 15 Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=130188469547&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=003 Old board but it is excellent and so are Led Zepplin, good things last. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 Anyone have any knowledge about Burton's R17 Addicted boards? They're 04 and 05 models. I'd say right about now either do a search (should be alot of info hidden in this site), or start a new thread. This one is getting a little ripe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastskiguy Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 I remember reading an article where a pro skier (might have been Scott Schmidt) was talking about a ski seminar he was involved with. A seminar participant wanted to keep talking about the latest ski technologies. The pro wanted to say “You’ll have to quit your day job if you want to get any better”.At a certain point, it’s all about the Indian and not the arrow. I theorize that price point can be reached at $400 :p Here’s my partially informed notion on price vs performance in regards to the weekend warrior. LOL, I love that graph! But that means my board is only as good as an "old" 1990's board! Dang! The idea of a "point of diminishing returns" is at 400$ (used? yes!) for recreational riders is a good one. I'd pick a higher number but the concept is sound. If you are racing for money, it's different, every possible advantage is important ("legal" or otherwise). If you are riding for fun it's about......fun (?) The nice thing about riding for fun is that the trickle down effect is so fantastic. Performance, reliability, accessibility all improve because of those guys gunning for every 1/10th. So, bottom line, you need to go 1/4 second faster or if you need the cutting edge, you can get it for less than 2K, a bargain for the cutting edge of anything. Or if you want a fantastic new board that is just a bit off of that edge it starts at $700. Or if you want something you can ride and have a great time on it starts at maybe $300 used-but-nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Prokopiw Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 Probably the wrong forum to mention this;I'm having a blast in powder on a nos board that cost 86.75 shipped and on hardpack and crud with a like new board that had a net cost of 18.00 after I sold the bindings off it.FUN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Vu Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 For comparative purpose, let’s take an average cyclist, give him a $4000 carbon bike and his performances would improve instantly. That does not guaranty that he can outperform the kid next door on a Wallmart bike. If I were to buy a metal board and another carver on a no-brand freestyle carves better than me, this would be very *VERY* embarrassing. I guess buying a high performance board is a double edge Swoard....oops I meant sword.:rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 about now im sorry i ever started this thread and jeez u guys do love to bitch at eachother:flamethro You can kill it by deliting your first post. Hit "edit", you'll find delite opton there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nils Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 That thread got into 5 pages pretty quick :) Here is the thing: you can do EC on any board, you can also race on almost any board...having the highest end gear will not make u win races, or do the best EC turns.. Racers are fighting with cents of seconds, and they need the best they can find under their feet...its also very psychological and i'm sure it would be hard, even for the best of the best, to ride something "old tech" when everyone does ride latest tech...Bozetto was old tech on F2 and he felt a new youth when he got onto kesslers...so it means it works too.. For EC, the best board is the board that you forget and makes things easy in all situations, all snows etc something versatile and powerful at the same time. Its the focus we have when developping the board and refining the shape, flex etc.. This season example with our gen3 boards showed that there is still much you can do to improve something that was already good with 10+ years of developpment behind... refining flex, thicknesses, etc and making the board better, there is still lots to improve with classical construction. We were among the first to output commercialy in 2002-03 a board with such a soft flex pattern, when all boards were still stiff beasts.. this had led us to making a board with high torsion resistance, and soft flex, designed for what we want it to do. We have now optimized the balance of materials, flexes, thicknesses, camber, outline well the shape and construction of the board so it works AND resists the high pressure and bends we ask it to do... If titanal is something that improves really the ride, we're going to know pretty quick if its worth the risks of delamination titanal gives to boards... EC does imply boards that are bended way past the bending that a race board gets...so braking could be an issue with a component more likely to delam than the others..we'll see Our policy is to not make compromises in materials or strength... if adding titanal to our board makes it ride 10% better but implies braking 10% boards its not going to see production life..( i doubt it can make the board 10% better too)... I'm not sure we need more dampening than what we do have now, but prototypes say what they have to say, and Jacques is sharp and accurate in his micro analyzings of what happens under his feet when he rides, so i'm confident his verdict is scientifically oriented. So to answer bobdea, if we haven't gone metal yet its not because of cost or factory issues, its more because we still need convicing it makes a better compromise... ( I 'm wondering what could be improved in J and P riding that would ask for a even better board...) There is also a price issue with metal that I find a bit strange.... does adding Titanal to a board means price has to go up 40-50%??? what do we pay here? the warranties for the broken boards that will occur? Since everyone is making softer flexes ( aka less strong boards mathematically), and uses a metal that is subject to easier delam than fiberglass, there is good chances prices of titanal boards we see kind of integrates the broken boards... I'm not sure its fair deal for the end customer, but this again, is a marketing positionning: everyone wants something, it means price can climb....I'm curious about the warranty numbers one sees on titanal too....I truely understand the need for it for racing when u need the highest performance at any cost ( strength beeing one for example)..but i'm not sure freecarving is on the same field. Reminds me of the era of industrial windsurf boards vs shapers boards ( HT, ANgulo, Coppello etc)...Pros had custom fiberglassed foam, and the rest had molded heavier stuff.. and it was fine that way, because freeriders needed a stronger board even if it meant less performance. We'll see what the future gives...but until we test things and R&D it, its all we can say...maybe future will have us output a higher end titanal model, maybe not! As for the debate of Racers hating EC etc.. i do not believe that.. i know a few racers that like to do EC when they are " off" but the problem is they train all the time racing, and they don't really have time for other riding..plus their boards aren't made for that too..( and they cost too much to risk breaking it off race..)... personaly I find very impressive the ability to race and to race good...its another discipline to me, its more demanding, needs lots of training etc... N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfell Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 Nils, that is a great post. Coming from someone who works very closly with board builders and I'm sure has press out some himself. Try it, see the pros and cons. Decide if the pros out weigh the cons or not, then make a decision. Great outlook. I don't think any racer "hates" ECing, they just are either un aware that there is even a movement. Or when they do find out about it they see it as more of a "parlor trick". Hate is a little extreme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shred Gruumer Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 I think most people here can ride... whats it worth??? dunno Im still ridding a 98 Ducati SuperSport FE.. Sure for 4000 less I can buy a R6 that pretty much smokes it.. but I like the way it sounds the way it handles and will always ride great.. h.mm My point is im always in the search of the perfect ride and feel..FOR ME.. For me I found that the Coiler Metals Schtubbys do it for me.. they make me more confident on ice and feel smooth so thats what I always search for.. I will pay for a board that does that.. even 44,000 dollars.. Its worth it and better if it allows the rider to excel .. I can't do that on anything else anymore..for me all other boards feel broken... I can ride them..but I'll always jump back on the metal.. I guess that why I can't stop buying or riding boards... its the endles pursuit of unltimate ride. So its only better if you like it.. but then you find something else.... I hate that...;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nils Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 I don't think any racer "hates" ECing, they just are either un aware that there is even a movement. Or when they do find out about it they see it as more of a "parlor trick". Hate is a little extreme. Yes i used the hate word a bit too quick...i think they just dont care..and if they want to do EC they do, and if they don't they don't...no big deal..Its just another way of riding anyway, so if people want to do it and have fun they can learn, and if some think its useless, they can stick with other ways of riding.. I personaly don't have the time/guts to learn racing tech, if I had i'm sure i would love to because its so efficient and fast. As you said, from a manufacturer point of view, everything needs to be tested before saying it works or not.. .and something might work in a field, and not in another...this is why carefull proto testing is always needed before you release something...balance pros and cons and when if the price to pay ( in $, reliability, weight etc...) is worth it, then its a decision to take for the manufacturer ( release or not)...So many brands decide what to put in their boards base only on marketing studies and prod cost only ( lower and lower) that now only small brands are able to really do R&D and fine test things...Big brands do this for racers only where prod cost is not an issue N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nils Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 Just saw Matthieu Bozetto's result...switching to kessler has pushed him to the summits ! incredible what metal did to him ! Nils Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 Just saw Matthieu Bozetto's result...switching to kessler has pushed him to the summits ! incredible what metal did to him !Nils Yeah, just more proof metal is not all it's cracked up to be, see the above chart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshack Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 Could you tell a big difference between a current Madd 170 and the earlier ones? A Donek FC? I think someone brought up earlier that they thought Factory Primes stayed basically the same board during their entire production run. Obviously new board models, and new constructions (metal, carbon, etc) affect ride quality, but what about the yearly tweaking of the staple shapes in a manufacturers' product line? What do you think? Aside from materials innovation, how much do the rides of different board models change over the years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 If the shape is changed, allot, best examples I can think of are softboot rides a 97 burton custom and a 2000 custom are different boards not just different years of the same board. A WCR metal is drastically different than the same shape (minus the tail) WCR that I had a couple years ago because it's allot softer and it has metal in it doing magical things. Even just a flex adjustment can make a huge difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdboytyler Posted January 15, 2008 Report Share Posted January 15, 2008 Yeah, just more proof metal is not all it's cracked up to be, see the above chart. Let's see, Bozzeto came in 4th at the Torino Olympics. Riding on a standard construction F2, he lost by a approximately 1.0 sec (combined for 2 runs) to one of the Schoch bros (who was riding a Kessler). So from Nils post, I'm assuming he won a recent event (can't find any results). I'm guessing the performance edge he gained by riding a metal Kessler is within the 5% range I'm predicting on my graph. That 5% improvement could have also catapulted Bozzeto to the gold medal at Torino. I never disagreed with the statements that metal is needed to win at the highest level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted January 15, 2008 Report Share Posted January 15, 2008 yes, still only 5% better how do you even quantify that? how about we do it this way look at the percentage of kesslers and SGs on the podium in the last three years compared to who was not. That graph of yours is based on no data and even if there was data saying a board is 5% better is next to impossible to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDY_2_Carve Posted January 15, 2008 Report Share Posted January 15, 2008 Let's see, Bozzeto came in 4th at the Torino Olympics. Riding on a standard construction F2, he lost by a approximately 1.0 sec (combined for 2 runs) to one of the Schoch bros (who was riding a Kessler).So from Nils post, I'm assuming he won a recent event (can't find any results). I'm guessing the performance edge he gained by riding a metal Kessler is within the 5% range I'm predicting on my graph. That 5% improvement could have also catapulted Bozzeto to the gold medal at Torino. I never disagreed with the statements that metal is needed to win at the highest level. 5% better for WC riders could mean 50% better for weekend warriors. I'm just saying... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdboytyler Posted January 15, 2008 Report Share Posted January 15, 2008 yes, still only 5% better how do you even quantify that? ...That graph of yours is based on no data and even if there was data saying a board is 5% better is next to impossible to do. For racers, 5% better means a 5% improvement in run time. I took Bordy's word and used a 1.5 sec improvement over a 30 sec course when switching to a metal Kessler. I then made the leap that the current (standard construction) boards have to at least be 5% better than the old Burton FP's. But that could be a stretch, since metal is the so-called Holy Grail. In the Olympics, Bozzetto lost by less than 5% (riding a standard construction board). For racers, it's easy to quantify how much better a board improves performance. Of course, for Bozzetto, that 5% improvement in time could have landed him the gold medal. Which leads to thousands of dollars in endorsements, sponsorships, etc. For the free-carver, I suppose you could measure increase in g-forces during a turn or increase in endorphins while riding different boards. But the easy way is quantifying the performance on the race course. So take your quiver to the local NASTAR course and see how your different boards compare and PROVE my graph wrong. Try to at least keep the lengths/sizes/wax/tune similar and vary the construction/age. You know, the scientific method. Or as I suggested earlier, take video and compare yourself. Do you really look that much smoother/better on the more expensive board? Look at the EC guys riding their 1990’s, $100 Wild Duck vs the $1000 Swoard. Are they 10x better on the Swoard? I don’t think so. Are they twice as good on the Swoard? I doubt that too. I can believe some incremental % improvement. Or just go out and enjoy your $1000+ board. Don’t let my graph get you all pissed-off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted January 15, 2008 Report Share Posted January 15, 2008 I don't think calculating percentages of overall times is that useful. For racers, how about you look at the difference between the worst time (aside from DNFs) and the best time. On a 30 second course, that difference might only be around 5 seconds. A one-second difference is huge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastskiguy Posted January 15, 2008 Report Share Posted January 15, 2008 The nice thing about racing is that you can go out and run equipment back to back on a timed course and find out what is faster-and it sounds like a lot of guys have already done it and found metal faster. You never know tho, sometimes the current rage can end up being like rear entry race boots in skiing. Yeah, they were actually a big deal for a few seasons! (made you faster in the race course and everything) Or designers will be like "No reason we can't make a wooden board ride better than the new metal models" and the newer designs overtake metal. Any way you look at it it's a great time to be an alpine snowboarder! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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