pogokoenig Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 UMMMMMM.....yes racing IS carving!!!! You have to carve very well to win a world cup. All the guys racing world cup can out carve everyone posting here. They are going to ride the absolute best carving out there. To say the technology they are on does not apply to a recreational rider is absurd. Yes if most of the people got on Jasey's set up they would be in over their heads. But use the technology and tailor it to a recreational rider and it IS a huge improvement, not just a preceived improvement because you spent the money.This is my take Titianal boards are better than the pre-titinal boards. Those that can't tell the differance are riding them improperly or don't have the skill set to ride the board for what it was designed for. I've also read about metal is only good in rutty race courses, well there are bumps all over the mountain, unless you live where it is too firm to bump up, then metal gives better edge grip while still providing a soft enough board to bend on ice, so metal is still better. If you guys are on the east coast come to Le Ralais this weekend, there is a Nor-Am PGS and PSL race there. Watch the top guys there, Vic Wild, Garrett Sorteburg, Matt Carter....all on metal....all carving like you could only dream of. Hmmm, you did not really get my point. For sure most racers are excellent snowboarders. The only thing i want to say is: Metal provides special characteristics to a board. It is perfect for you, if you like them. But if you like a snappy lively board Metal would be the wrong deal. If you guys - from whereever you are - come over the big lake, give me a ring. Let's practice non-metal carving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Ong Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Damp vs. lively boards, this seems to be a big issus in the metal / wood debate. Could it be that riding style has more to do with a lively or "poppy" board than the actual construction? My metal board initiates the turn a lot easier than my comparably sized wood board, effortless if you will. With a softer board like this i was surprised at the amount of edge hold, i keep expecting it to fold up but it just keeps gripping. Think of metal as having the easy riding characteristics of a softer board with the STEELY grip of a much stiffer stick. Another big plus for me is the weight savings, if you like retarded sized boards your foot will appreciate this on the chair ride. Maybe someone with more experience could give us a general overview of how to ride a metal board to get the most out of it. might go a long way to help those who have tried it and don't quite see what all the fuss is all about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 I might be biting off more than I can chew, but here goes. What are the some of the differences in construction that causes such a huge gap in performance? The shapes obviously look the same. You are going to have to search for that one.... Here are some examples: Kesslers "look" like they are shaped the same, they are not, they have done a TON of testing and have come up with some new shapes (not a huge change, but different enough) that have put them on the top for racing even in just the last couple of years. Materials research alone (metal included) has introduced new and exciting goodies that make the boards better. I think just the fact that companies have had over 10 years of play time to refine their goods is another one......... I think the huge gap just comes as a culmination of all of it, evolution I guess. As far as what you should do??????? With a $250 budget, buy what you can afford, ride the crap out of it and upgrade as you can/want, you don't have the luxury of being picky. You will have fun on just about anything. Feel free to ask the boards opinion as you go, some may poo-poo it, but you will get some good feedback. My current favotire setup comes in at about $500, $300 used Donek Axxess, $200 Ibex bindings, free boots. I LOVE IT! Welcome to BOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 When out snowboarding, I haven’t heard one single carver say “I want to turn like ‘insert pro racer”.I want to turn like Jasey-Jay. There, I said it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pogokoenig Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Then go out and learn snowboarding. Buying a metal/ carbon/ texalium/ wood/ cotton/ silk board will not help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Buying a metal/ carbon/ texalium/ wood/ cotton/ silk board will not help. It could...... "HELP" is the key word. I agree, the board is not going to make you JJ. BUT, if a person is at a certain level of performance and the are having commitment issues that are not allowing them to get to the next level. A "new technology" board that gives better performance in a certain way may be what they need to HELP get them over the hurdle. Then, going back to an old tech board they are able to apply what they learned on the new tech board....... So there you go, it could help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buell Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 I want to turn like almost any pro-racer! No one NEEDS a metal board to carve! They sure make it easier and nicer for me though. For those who have not tried one and are saying that they are useless, I thought this was fitting: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 I wasn't arguing for or against metal. I'm just saying that it's false that people only dream of turning like the EC guys do. I'm sure the metal boards are great, but given the limited riding I'm able to do in a season (especially this season), I'm not rushing out to buy one. I have plenty of fun on my regular Coiler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Damp with no pop, or vise versa....... From an engineering stand point you SHOULD be able to have a damp board with "pop". Vibration from the hill should be at different frequencies then what we like to consider "pop". Using different damping techniques you can fine tune the frequency at which the board absorbs energy. If you analyze it you could use different techniques to have multiple frequencies they the board absorbs. As long as this does not encompass the relatively low frequencies we see as "pop" you should be able to get a damp board with pop. Look up constrained layer damping to see just how frequency specific we can be. With the bond issues they have had and the characteristics people describe with metal, I think it is approaching a constrained layer system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pogokoenig Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 It could......"HELP" is the key word. I agree, the board is not going to make you JJ. BUT, if a person is at a certain level of performance and the are having commitment issues that are not allowing them to get to the next level. A "new technology" board that gives better performance in a certain way may be what they need to HELP get them over the hurdle. Then, going back to an old tech board they are able to apply what they learned on the new tech board....... So there you go, it could help. Got me! You are right. 1:0 for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 pogo, too bad you are not coming to Aspen this year. Or did something change in the meantime? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newmax Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Ray, unfortunately not. Hes just sending his "slaves" there. We tried hard to convince him... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Prokopiw Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Bobdea,I have looked and looked in the archives and you're the only one who has consistently had anything bad to say about Oxygen.Maybe others will chime in against them now,but I stand by my impression of their boards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdboytyler Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 a big reason why you don't see racers doing the laid turns is they 1 they could care less about impressing people with what they consider a novelty and 2 they are out training to run gates and don't have time or the money to film novelty turns. Burton, DC, Mack Dawg, FLF and Grenade make snowboard films but don't put racers in them, they are more jib centric so you will not see films of racers riding anywhere really... Impressing yahoos like me is where the money is at. It's ludicrous to say racers are too busy training to put out a free-riding video that shows off their skills. Shaun White, the biggest name in competitive snowboarding has time for free-riding videos. And don't try telling me alpine events take more time and dedication than freestyle. In the age of YouTube, anybody can get their video out to the masses. If the pros think free-riding videos aren't worthwhile, it's their loss. I haven't bought a snowboard video since Totally Board 5. If a world cup racer put out a quality free-riding video, I'd be first in line to buy a copy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 White gets paid big money to do that. Most racers pay for their boards where as Burton PAYS White to put his name on theirs............. Again, uninformed Oxygen, yup, just as good as kessler, Coiler, Donek, Prior, Madd and Tomahawk. Sorry, I must have been wrong. I never liked the boards in the first place but they did evolve a little more than the burton primes/speed but still are not great boards by a long shot. I rode the **** out of burton gear too. Volkl, hot, F2 and even the yellow rossi world cups were better product IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Damp with no pop, or vise versa.......From an engineering stand point you SHOULD be able to have a damp board with "pop". I have limited experience on metal, but of the stuff I've tried, metal sure didn't kill the liveliness! Of the 3 I've ridden, each one had PLENTY o' pop. Camber profile, core materials, shape...all going to play a part. All the desirable riding characteristics you could want in an alpine deck are present as far as I can tell. Granted these are consumer GS sticks and are designed to have the "fun factor" along with performance. Not sure what a team-stock metal, PGS specific Prior, Kessler, SG or...whatever, would feel like. Sure would like to though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 It was not like I said they were that bad in this thread, mind you I was a burton boy for a long time. the Primes were not all that bad in their day either, their day ended in the late 90's I still rode rode them for a couple years, allot of the time because I was able to get them at wholesale price for the current model year. Madds are going for around $300 these days, you can get doneks, coilers and priors for similar price. if you buy a race model or select freecarvers that are more current you'll get some pretty nice performance out of them compared to the old O2, burton, purecarve, mistral, hooger, aggression, rossi, hot, mly, k2, sims(that one hurt, I loved burners), killer loop or whatever else you can find that's older than Gleb's girlfriend (who's legal!) ((barely)) all that without metal, metal is the next step up. I was doing airborne edge transistions on my prior the other night, it has some pop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfell Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 I bet most racers on tour do not have a clue about the "EC" stuff, and when they do hear about it they laugh. Say what you want about that statement, but I'm hear at a Nor-Am event and you are not, so I am informed when I say this. The world cup guys don't go out and film their freeriding. They are focused on racing and are not out to impress you, they want results for themselves. But to make a claim that a world cup athlete can't carve a snowboard well is very very silly. As for construction differances since primes first came out.......Lets see, metal is commonly used now (I think that's apparent), many boards now don't use any fiberglass, carbon is used more now, rubber is used differently, camber profile is totally different, side cut shape and taper is different..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfell Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 To also answer a question from photodad. I read earlier that you are not on hardboot, but ride in Burton SI's. You probably should look at getting an SBX board instead of a alpine type deck. Alpine decks are designed to be ridden with hard boot, you can not get the same leverage you need to ride them properly with your SI set up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yyzcanuck Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 ...Maybe others will chime in against them now,but I stand by my impression of their boards. ... OK, I'll stand by your impression too. I have a complete set of 2008 Oxygen Protons. Yeah, they are the same template from previous years. Yeah, they are the same construction. Yeah, they have Titanal. I like them and I believe we'll sell them next season as an alternative for customers that don't like F2's boards. I can't confirm it but do have fairly reliable 'word' that the Proton is produced in the same factory as F2. Very similar cap construction with Titanal wings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfell Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 I had a proton 185 years ago (probably 98???) I hated it compared to the F2's I was also riding at the time. Anton Pogue had a Proton from a few years ago that he really liked, and yes they have been using titinal for many many years, but they never quit mimiced what the newer race boards are doing. I haven't seen an 08 yet though. Dave do you have an F2 standard bail bindings for sale??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 YYZ, then why would anyone buy one? if they can get the same thing from '99 for 160 US? that's my point, people are still buying up old Krypton and Protons from the last decade that has been gone.... for eight years. I'm sure a 08 proton eats the one from a decade ago alive. Even simple things like small material upgrades can be a big thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willow 15 Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Originally Posted by gdboytylerIt's ludicrous to say racers are too busy training to put out a free-riding video that shows off their skills. Shaun White, the biggest name in competitive snowboarding has time for free-riding videos. And don't try telling me alpine events take more time and dedication than freestyle. How many world cup ski racers are making videos? Exactly, it does not help their performance by showing anyone and the cats mother they can free ski. Racing gates is hard and takes session after session to get right. Also there are a lot more people who want to see someone spinning upsidedown rather than someone bashing gates, how many people watch a halfpipe contest compared to pgs? Its sad but a fact of life, to the uneducated masses snowboard freestyle is more impressive to watch than snowboard racing, but some of us know a damn fine carver when we see one.ps You should actually see a racer freecarving fassstttttt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdboytyler Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 I remember reading an article where a pro skier (might have been Scott Schmidt) was talking about a ski seminar he was involved with. A seminar participant wanted to keep talking about the latest ski technologies. The pro wanted to say “You’ll have to quit your day job if you want to get any better”. At a certain point, it’s all about the Indian and not the arrow. I theorize that price point can be reached at $400 :p Here’s my partially informed notion on price vs performance in regards to the weekend warrior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfell Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 How are you coming up with such a BS chart. What research have you do? Have you put a vast number on weekend warriors on different boards and have charted their results? Or are you just winging it based off of gut feeling based on info gained from internet reading? Everyones budget is different. Some people can afford to have a Ferrari parked 340 day a year in the garage. Some people have trouble putting gas in their '80 civic. If you can afford the best get it, it does make a differance. If you can't get the best you can afford. It really is very simple. According to your chart there is very little performance differance between a Prime and a Kessler for a weekend warrior. If that is true why are there weekend warriors on this site preaching the performance differance? That is probably the stupidest post I've ever read here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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