Toeside chatter and skipping - why?

[philw]

Maybe we should have a separate thread where people can vote on what they do with their knees. I think the kelly-style knees thing went out way back and although you can ride perfectly well that way it's not what most of us who went through that continued to to. I'm not sure that I could shove my knees together anyway... my boots are pretty stiff.

I'm in the "put the bindings where the manufacturer tells you" camp. Usually that's bang in the middle, although some boards have set-back built in.

As people said, from the pictures it looks like a stance issue more than anything else. Maybe you're worrying too much about style & form and not enough about just riding. That is: a lot of people spend time bending at the waist and trying to touch the snow... I think that's getting effect and cause he wrong way around, like old skiers who used to force their feet together.

So I'd set the stance where the manufacturer says you should, then forget about how low you are, put some loud music on and see how fast you can corner.

It's possible to "overload" the nose on some boards if you push them too hard, which can make for a bit of chattering. That's easy to address though: slow down or switch to a bigger board.

[D-Sub]

Maybe we should have a separate thread where people can vote on what they do with their knees.

sadist.

[Bobby Buggs]

We talked about this last year, I just can’t find it. I do remember part of the fix was not to have your but sticking out. Toe side really relies on hip angulation

[wavechaser]

sadist.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[D.T.]

My attempt to help:

Try to lower your COG (bend knees more).

Make sure to set your edge well at the top of the turn, then you have a solid platform to stand on thru the middle and bottom of the turn where the g-forces are highest.

Don't "park and ride" meaning keep your feet moving through the turn. You can push your feet forward thru the turn thus adding more pressure to the tail near the end of the turn.

I know many are against it but for me and my riders, keep your knees apart and let them flex in the natural direction that your binding is set at. This keeps pressure on the tail and doesn't create any strange and sometimes painful angles in the knees.

Ink

Mostly good info in this thread FSG...but listen to this one...good stuff as always.

For some reason this guy actually know what he is talking about. Too bad he can't ride?!? ;)

[inkaholic]

For some reason this guy actually know what he is talking about. Too bad he can't ride?!? ;)

Well, at least I was able to help you, Big Mario, Shelly and others.

Remember, those who can't do teach.

Ink

[inkaholic]

Now that I have seen the pictures, DON'T bend at the waist. DON'T reach for the snow.

Angulation is your friend and will drive all the forces into the snow for more edge hold.

Keep those feet moving.

If in CO visit Loveland for a day with our crew. Check the ride board.

Hope all this info that everyone is feeding you for the holidays helps. Now get out and try this stuff.

Ink

[SpeedracerJVB]

I don't usually contribute to these threads simply because there are so many opinions being thrown around (no tone with that comment) that I can't imagine mine making any difference however I think that I may be of some service on this particular issue.

<O:p></O:p>

I am a racer and for the better part of my career I have had some significant issues with my toe side turns. Nail my heel sides but I can still struggle with the death chatter on my toe side at times. It seems that some of the solutions that I have read sort of complicate the issue. Yes, a lot of the things mentioned in this thread can contribute to ineffective edging and thus loss of contact but generally speaking when your board begins to chatter it means that your edge is losing contact with the surface of the snow. Your board can lose contact for several reasons however if it’s happening on a consistent basis it usually means that your body is out of position and thus your weight is not over your edge. Frustrating to consider, yes, again I have dealt with this issue for a long time and at speed but the solution never changes and every time I listen to one of my coaches and follow through, the problem is solved.<O:p

<O:p></O:p>

First, and again I am saying this with no tone but I see a lot of free carvers out there squaring their shoulders to the nose of the board. This is ok if you are riding a forgiving/softer board and not carrying any significant amount of speed however once you increase your velocity and/or get on a stiffer board this can be a recipe for yucky turns. Try keeping your shoulders parallel with your hips, your hips should be parallel with your feet and thus your body aligned. This might be slightly counterintuitive for some as it's a fairly normal response to want to face down the hill when you are riding however squaring your shoulders can take pressure off your edge and can contribute to ones propensity to lean which brings me to my next suggestion.<O:p

<O:p></O:p>

The reason that you are probably having an issue with your toe side and not your heel side is quite simply that it's more difficult to lean in on your heel side turn. It's not a natural motion to lean in on a heel side turn and even if your shoulders are squared up your weight can still be effectively over your edge enough so that the board will hold. Squaring your shoulders on your heel side can contribute to other issues however for this exercise we’ll assume that it’s ok. It is however completely natural to lean into a toe side turn with your rear shoulder ie. Drop your shoulder towards the ground. What this does effectively is reduce the your edge pressure and depending on the slope, the board, your speed and the conditions your toe side edge can begin to lose contact with the snow which is never a good thing.

<O:p

<O:p> </O:p>

Solution: Keep your body aligned, this will challenge your balance a little and feel a little awkward at first, you might even feel as if you are going to tip over but stick with it, your turns will be more balanced, more powerful and far more efficient as a result. Try to keep your knees separated, again this can be a struggle for some but remember that your knees are the driving force in your toe side turn and you want as much edge pressure as you can get so separating your knees will help keep your body aligned helping you fight the propensity to square up and it will increase your effective edge pressure. When your knees come together you are concentrating your pressure on a finite portion of your edge, when your knees are separated you are increasing that area. Your edge runs the length of the board for a reason, use it. The other thing you might want to try is reaching. On your toe side turn take your front hand and reach for your heel edge (just over the heel of your front boot). Try to do this without squaring your shoulders to the nose of your board. This will help you maintain your edge pressure over your board instead of over the snow and it will help keep your shoulder parallel to the slope. You can do this on your heel side as well, simply take your rear hand and reach for the toe of your rear boot. Just a warning, hold on cause you are going to be generating some power now and you might come out of your turns a little in the back seat. To counter this, stay balanced and centered over your board. I could go on and on but I want to keep this simple for you. Give it a try, I am certain it will solve your toe side chatter issue.<O:p

[LeeW]

Pat sent the "Core Four" article to me. This pic is from page 2:

oh my, i totally forgot i have this article. im gonna have to dig it up. its one hell of an article!!

[queequeg]

oh my, i totally forgot i have this article. im gonna have to dig it up. its one hell of an article!!

Anyone want to PDF this article and put it online somewhere?

[Blue Bird]

JVB

Thanks for the description in your post, it really helped me to identify some problems in my turns.

Between this and some on hill coaching from Ink, I have a refined thinking of my turn

Thanks Guys, you rock

Justin

[Vahur]

I'm not any authority and not so good rider myself, so take my advice with grain of salt. But hey, it's free! :)

When people say: bend the knees, then remember to drive your legs forward in the same time (use ankle joints), do not keep shins straight and drop hips to bend knees. Latter requires bending at waist and moving upper body forward in order keep balance and results in toilet seating. If you look at provided pics, then notice, how much in "correct" ones knees are pushed forward and upper body remains straight (as in picture from article) and in "wrong ones" (e.g. from "The Toeside Problem" article) shins are mostly straight and upper body bent forward.

Too stiff boots (e.g. with Deeluxe 5-position leaning mechanism locked, on cold day!) could "dictate" forward leaning with upper body, as they don't allow enough forward flex from ankles.

When I hit slopes in this winter then I try to remember 3 advices I learned from books and forums this year: centered, aligned, bend knees forward. Hopefully it will help my technique...

[Bobby Buggs]

Most common failure is Over rotation. I have found when I lose a toe side I am looking at the hill not at the nose of my board or out in front of me and my inside hand is on the hill instead of just off the snow.

[NateW]

I feel victim to this earlier today, just from trying to crank a toeside that was faster/tighter than the snow would support. If you look at your tracks from the lift, are your toesides generally tighter than your heelsides? If so, that alone might help explain why this happens more often on your toes than on your heels.

[Bobby Buggs]

If you think about it, you can only rotate so far on a heel side, but on the toe you can go way too far

[Fastskiguy]

Thanks again for all of the tips guys, I think my form has improved with some of these ideas :) Managed to survive a NASTAR course with this off-camber toeside turn....most of the time LOL!

[Jack M]

Jumping in late here, I don't know if anyone has said this. You're probably not committing to your toeside carve completely. Chatter often happens when you try to make a carve too big and too fast for the sidecut radius of your board. Believe it or not, the faster you go, the smaller the carve your board wants to make. This means you have to be really on it, angulate like crazy, feel the crease form in your downhill hip, crank up the edge angle, and drive the carve around all the way to the finish (perpendicular to the fall line).

edit - good looking pic there. Your hips are down, that's good. Hips up, ass in the air = bad.

[Fastskiguy]

I think setup might make a difference. I've got some Raichle boots and have been running the front at "5" and the rear at "4" (1-5 is the range of ankle flex with 1 being the most flexed position and 5 being the most upright position). I don't exactly ride straight legged but I like to have a fairly tall stance "and use my skeleton to take the pressure, not my muscles" <-ski instructor speak. I *think* I have less of a problem with more flex in my ankles and less edging on toeside.

So with that upright stance I think I'm over edging and skipping. But I need some of YOU to put your boots at 4-5 and crank some aggressive toeside turns on really hard snow and see if you skip too. That'd help me out, that'd be good for me if you could do that, really :)

My theory is under edging=skidding, over edging=skipping. Somebody try it and write back :) Thanks!

[carvedog]

For me skipping = too much pressure on the edge.

Usually this means ( for my style of riding ) that I don't have enough turn shape to handle the edge angle and speed.

For many this happens on heel side but comes from not having or making a complete toeside turn. That means a toe turn that is finished to the point of speed control.

If you feel like you accelerate when carving toeside and go back to heelside for speed control that can cause a lot of force when you come heelside. ( How many have been guilty - aye. The ayes have it.) Especially if you are rotating the lead shoulder back to crank it more quickly, that doesn't let side cut add the shape it wants to ride in.

On toeside skipping it seems like often comes from setting edge angle too high too early. And again without a lot of turn shape. If you are down the fall line and throw the board sideways without adding some shape then you will start to get tossed around a lot too.

My primary perception of movement when I am carving the hardest, is of lateral movement, not necessarily down the fall line at all.

My two cents. Sure wish I could go apply these theories right now. Stuck at the store. Blue bird to partly cloudy, 28-30F and the mtn a scant 1/2 mile away.

[Fastskiguy]

In my current setup I never get heelside chatter and I feel just invincible on the heelside. I wonder if guys that are chattering heelside have a lot of ankle flex (boots set to say 1 or 2) and thus "over" edging?

[inkaholic]

Thanks again for all of the tips guys, I think my form has improved with some of these ideas :) Managed to survive a NASTAR course with this off-camber toeside turn....most of the time LOL!

Turn your body into the turn. In this pic you are counter rotated a lot. That won't help you to turn toeside.

Ink

[Fastskiguy]

I just re-read this whole thread and want to thank everybody again for the comments. The whole idea of angulation on the toeside has been a tremendous help in moving me from "noobie hack" to "starting to get the idea" LOL!

Lately I've been on a "it's not me, it's my setup" kick. Today I moved my boots to a neutral forward lean ("3" on the scale of 1-5) and narrowed my stance a little to 19.75" and it feels just fine. We had some tough conditions here, really firm and bumpy refreeze (complete with groomer tracks from last night) overlaid with a thin layer of "margarita" snow so if you "could" hold but it took some edging skills. My toeside chatter was less (yay :) but still present (awe :( ). Still none on heelside (excellent dude!)

Today I realized the chattering seems to start with the tail of the board so I want to move my bindings back a little. I have no idea where they are....but when I narrowed my stance at the hill I moved my rear binding forward about 2" so I might be in front of the midpoint.

Setback....where do you run your bindings?