anybody got a room? (it's for a good cause)

[tex1230]

here's some numbers for you to chew on from wikipedia:

Even when rapes are reported to the police, the chance of a successful conviction is very small:

If the rape is reported to police, there is a 50.8% chance that an arrest will be made.

If an arrest is made, there is an 80% chance of prosecution.

If there is a prosecution, there is a 58% chance of a felony conviction.

If there is a felony conviction, there is a 69% chance the convict will spend time in jail.

So, even in the 39% of attacks that are reported to police, there is only a 16.3% chance the rapist will end up in prison.

Factoring in unreported rapes, about 6% of rapes — 1 out of 16 — will result in jail time for the rapist

These statistics mean nothing unless comparing them to rates of reporting and prosecution of other violent crimes. I'm not going to take the time to look them up, but I'd say 50.8% arrest, 58% conviction and 69% incarceration seem like they are probably in line with the rates of other violent crimes. Add to that that whoever splashed those statistics around makes a broad assumption about "unreported" incidents and it's a bunch of nonsense. How many fistfights go unreported? Child abuse? Elder Abuse?

I am not saying that there is not a problem here (and most likely worldwide). What I am saying is that the media and individual activists like to splash around statistics like those above without comparing them to similar incidents. These numbers shock, they do not inform.

Some more meaningless statistics:

99% of those reading the above post will have a problem with it.

100% of them can kiss my a$$

(edit: I'm sure this is a good cause, I just get sick of people - both liberals and conservatives - who throw out meaningless statistics to support their points)

[Justin A.]

Only women and girls need to fear violent crime, nobody else needs to, especially not if they're a male.

Maybe people should start taking responsibilty for their own safety? Blame the government, blame society, blame whoever the hell you want.

This arguement can go both ways. Maybe it's the same society that apparently tells men to be violent and dominant that tells women to be submissive and helpless. Instead of whining that society and the government isn't protecting you, do something to make yourself safer. Carry a bottle of pepperspray (not that that would stop a tweaker high on their drug of choice), take a self-defense class, take responsibility for your own safety.

[trailertrash]

Only men speed in Austrailia.

[BobD]

Only men speed in Austrailia.

I saw that story and wondered what name the Aussies will come up with for the gesture.

That's another country with a big rape problem. A couple of girls I know had been raped there.

Found these stats

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

and the totals are interesting

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap-crime-rapes

Don't think the reporting in some of those countries is right though.

BobD

[yyzcanuck]

For now I try to remember to put the seat down. It's hard.

If you both put the LID down there'd be no basis for an argument!

[Allee]

Tonja, thanks for your post. There are cultures of silence and ignorance around way too many things in our society, and often the effect of them is to victimise the victim all over again. It's not right and it needs to change.

My views on rape changed dramatically after I read Alice Sebold's book "Lucky", which deals with a random rape victim and her pursuit of justice. She's an amazing writer, and her descriptions of the prejudices she faced, the process she went through to see her attacker jailed, and the toll it took on her life, is harrowing. For anyone who thinks this is a sniggering matter, and doubts the effect that rape has on a victim, read this book and educate yourself.

Bob, did you find some accommodations for your young lady?

[bobdea]

yeah, for a couple nights. She's in NY now.

[Guest pilgrimforpeace]

Hi All--

Just thought I would stop by and say hello, since ya'll are talking about me:)

A couple of thoughts in the comments stuck out to me... The first was the idea that what I'm doing is naive. I'd remind you that the original Peace Pilgrim was 81 when she died, and I don't think she was naive at all. I think she was far wiser than most of us.

The second was the implicit (sometimes explicit) statement that people are inherently flawed. I'd suggest exactly the opposite. I believe that everyone is good (men, of course, included), and walking has only strengthened that belief.

[bobdea]

you got her attention!

[Jack M]

A couple of thoughts in the comments stuck out to me... The first was the idea that what I'm doing is naive.

Overall on a scale of thumbs-up or thumbs-down, I give you a thumbs-up. However on closer inspection it sounds to me that you are demanding a change in the very nature of men. If so, that's naive.

The second was the implicit (sometimes explicit) statement that people are inherently flawed. I'd suggest exactly the opposite. I believe that everyone is good (men, of course, included), and walking has only strengthened that belief.

Now that IS naive. Bad people exist, hence the very reason for your walk. I'm sure your walk is supporting this delusion - you have made yourself a lightning-rod for charity and good will. You're practically a self-anointed nun, and who messes with nuns?

Anyway, I hope your walk is successful. Good luck.

[Guest pilgrimforpeace]

I worked as a facilitator in a court-ordered program for men who batter their partners for the six months leading up to the walk. I also worked as an anti-violence educator for quite a while, and in that context I spoke to some men who were clearly rapists, some who told me that rape victims deserved it, some who believed that women need to be "put in their place" with a beating now and then.

That said, I've never met a single "bad person" in my entire life.

[BlueB]

Pilgrim, welcome on Bomber!

If you were in Vancouver in the winter and want to carve few turns for peace, drop me a message.

... you have made yourself a lightning-rod for charity and good will.

Nothing wrong with that. Many of us have made ourselves lightning-rods for our sport, or other causes... You got to do what you've got to do. Following a dream is a road less traveled, but those who do have my admiration.

However on closer inspection it sounds to me that you are demanding a change in the very nature of men. If so, that's naive.

Well, due to millions of years of natural selection, men are bigger, stronger, have better focus and reflexes, are more sensitive to pain, and alas, are more aggressive, while women are more intuitive, have better "big picture", better feeling for proportion, better verbal skills, less sensitive to pain, have more nurturing/growing instincts. This is due to traditional man's task of hunter/warrior, and woman's care-giver/gatherer role. "Modern" society where these roles are not emphasized is less then a century old. It would take very looooong time to change the genes.

However, the genes are just 1/2 of what we are, the other (that separates us from animals for a good part) is the influence of the environment or upbringing, if you wish. This is the part that we can change. It should be possible within few generations timespan.

And yes, I believe that there's culture of violence more prominent in some countries than others. Typically, this combined with few other factors like technology, greed and geo/political factors, propels these nations into regional or global domination aspirations.

Boris

[Guest pilgrimforpeace]

Hi BB,

Thanks for your support! I think we definitely agree on the important point, which is that evolution is possible. Anything else is just kinda interesting to wonder about, but not really important when it comes to how we treat other people...

Though I think it is certainly possible that men and women have certain differences, I'm always suspicious of "biological" hypotheses that reinforce our culture's power structures. A hundred years ago scientists were saying that women were not as intelligent as men because our brains are smaller. And a few years before that Greek doctors claimed that women's uteruses migrated throughout their bodies, causing irrational behavior. The cure, of course, was to weigh them down with a baby so they'd stay put.

Biology is one of the branches of science that is most affected by the political and social ideology of those studying it. Anne Fausto-Sterling has written some amazing stuff on the topic. She points out that even creating dualistic categories for gender in humans is not scientifically accurate, since variations from the male/female dichotomy are so frequent in humans. About 1 in 500 people are "intersexed," for example, and gender is created by so many variables (chromosomes, tons of different combinations of hormones, brain structure, physical appearance, sexual behavior, psychology, etc.) that it's hard to find any single variable that distinguishes "men" from "women."

Not that those two categories are not useful in many contexts--it just gets a lot more complex when you start getting down to the biology of it all.

[BlueB]

... that it's hard to find any single variable that distinguishes "men" from "women."

Well, you certainly have used the polarization "aggressive men / endangered women" in articles I red.

In the same articles, you do come across as a bit of "feminazi" (which is just other side of the macho-sexism coin), which I trust you are not.

[Guest pilgrimforpeace]

Hey BB,

That's exactly what I'm saying. The biology is much more complicated than the two categories our culture forces on us, but our culture definitely does force people into two categories: men and women. And it insists that men should act certain ways and women in others. That's the whole problem I'm trying to point out. I think men should be free to act in whatever way feels right to them as individuals, without fear of being called sissies, wimps, pussies, etc. (fill in the blank with a slur that insults men/boys by implying that they are somehow like women... and therefore inferior).

What makes someone a "feminazi" anyway? The term seems to imply a combination of wanting gender equity and wanting to exterminate all Jewish people... I definitely am not in favor of extermination of anyone.

[pebu]

I kind of disagree. Fear of being thought of as being inferior is what makes us try not to be inferior.

Now yes, of course, I can understand how using feminine qualities to infer somebody is inferior can be offensive.

I guess thats all.

[trailertrash]

shouldnt you be walking?

[bobdea]

You know people don't walk all night or all day all the time in particular when in the city.

Who's bright idea was it to make you a mod anyway? IMHO you're always out to go for the low blow or just say something inflamitory in a subtle way. I've watched you do this with others 'round here both before you got your little title and after.

I might not agree what Jack says but he doesn't post anything like the way you do, you just are irritating. Maybe you should try do what you're supposed to, like try to avoid flame wars and the banter that leads nowhere other than name calling and potty mouthed remarks instead of instigate them.

You just don't set a good example if you want to keep this board civil.

[BlueB]

Ouch! This tread is getting almost as heated as Vancouver today - I'm out of here.

Pilgrim, walk in peace.

[bobdea]

BlueB, I felt obligated pipe up there because in TT's case in particular I thought that it was best to point out that he in no way contributed to either side of the of what we are talking about but yet has no problem lobbing insults.

Basically trolling, on a board that he's supposed to take care of.

I didn't mean to scare anyone off or anything, but it's like seeing a cop shoplift :rolleyes:

[Guest pilgrimforpeace]

Hey Bob! Thanks for defending, but it's a'ight--I don't mind.

TT, I can only walk about 8 hours a day before my feet fall off! I might be able to do more if it was a one-day thing, but I've only taken one day off since June 1st. Unfortunately I'm nowhere near as tough as the original Peace Pilgrim. My back and every joint below my waist are pretty messed up right now :)

[Jack M]

Bob, I think perhaps you're being a little sensitive here....? I thought it was a joke, a jab. This is the OT forum after all, which has very few rules and isn't really moderated much at all. And Pilgrim's manifesto is provocative if not inflammatory. It surely invites commentary.