Bobby Buggs Posted February 27, 2007 Report Share Posted February 27, 2007 Not sure if this has happened to anyone else but here goes. Started on Hard boots and had no clue how to use a side cut, running 45/35 and narrow stance back in the mid -late 90s. I called it Power skidding. When I made my first break through it was on Dave Morgan’s Coiler with Cateks at mid 60 angles. It was So awkward at first but once I got over it I put together my first heel side carves and my first cross under from heel to toe on a steep, engaging the down hill edge for the first time. After that day I only rode at High angles and moved up to a 19.5 stance. Recently now that I have a slight clue about riding I have found my self backing down on the angles, especially on my back foot. I am down to 60 front and 52 back. I feel like I want to go lower but fear I will end up in the toilet if I go lower on the back foot. Scarey part is Rob C one of the Carve Father crew rides a higher angle on is back foot than the front. Have you guys gone from steep to shallow angles as your riding progressed ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjfarbs Posted February 27, 2007 Report Share Posted February 27, 2007 I have improved my gate riding substantially by backing down to about 55/51 but if I am only trying to carve it feels too shallow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ar(angel Posted February 27, 2007 Report Share Posted February 27, 2007 now where did I leave that screw driver...... I too have recently backed my angles down a little, but I think that was due to me riding an all mountain board and finding my heelsides were a bit easier with the shallower angles. I rode recently though in Heavenly and found I was wanting more steeper angles with the firmer snow. I haven't been able to "hook up" so far this season at Shasta with the conditions the way they've been (although Ralann will say it's all rider error! :D ), but in Tahoe with the better snow I was riding way differently. I'm actually going to try steeper angles to try to cure my heelside problem of not getting my upper body rotated around enough, something Cuban Carving Gooding pointed out to me. I realize as Cuban pointed out this will not totally set me right, I've still got to drive my hands to the inside instead of opening up my upper body like I currently do (see photo) I ride 63F/60R right now, but want to go a little steeper to see what happens..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateW Posted February 27, 2007 Report Share Posted February 27, 2007 My progression went like: 25cm wide freeride boards with 45/30 angles 23cm and 45/40 21cm and 55/50 17cm and 70/65 Then back up to 19cm and 60/55, which I think is the sweet spot for me. I still have the 45/40 setup, mostly just as a rock board. Every time I ride it I expect to hate it, and then am surprised to find (again) that it works just fine. :) The 45/40 setup was the only thing I had when I "saw the light" and got into a forward-facing off-the-toilet posture. I was on the 45/40 setup all day last Saturday and had an absolute blast... the snow was really soft though so I never tried to carve especially hard (got 4-5" of new while while I was there). Like I said, I think for me the sweet spot is higher, but lower still works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecko Posted February 27, 2007 Report Share Posted February 27, 2007 18.8 waist I ride a 20" stance with 51* in the front and 48* in the rear....This keeps my old knees happy, but it means that I should look for a wider board because I have a bit of overhang but not so much that my lack of skill finds the limits... yet, so I have a year or two more on my RC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted February 27, 2007 Report Share Posted February 27, 2007 Personally, I put my toes and heels on the edges of the board. On my 19.5cm Prior Metal, that's like 55 degrees. On my 18cm Madd 158 it's like 66. That's just me, some people ride the same angles regardless of board width. Yeah, some people ride pigeon-toed. Mark Fawcett went through a phase of that. It's not for me. 8 degrees of splay is heeeuge, imo. Unless you're naturally more duckfoot than average, I don't think you'd need more than 5 degrees. Any more than that and your knees are going to be fighting each other. Feel free to experiment with lower angles. The toilet-sit only happens if you bend your knees too much and too early, and you rotate your hips towards the toeside edge. Avoid it by keeping those hips turned towards your boot toes or more, and lean in first, bend knees second. Like brother Ben here: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Buggs Posted February 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2007 Trust me, I try to avoid the toilet at all costs. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Buggs Posted February 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 8 degrees of splay is heeeuge, imo. Unless you're naturally more duckfoot than average, I don't think you'd need more than 5 degrees. Any more than that and your knees are going to be fighting each other. Guess you have not seen Jorge of Pure Boarding with his 50/25 stance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 yyyyyeah.... I didn't have that much splay on my Safari. Not since the Elite 150. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshack Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 I'm a bit confused about heelside form. I've heard that you want to get your ass over your edge,to increase the pressure on it, but all these riders seem to have nearly-straight legs, only bend at the waist. Is the key to a good turn actually haveing your butt above the board topsheet, regardless of inclination? That is, if your board's at 60 degrees to the snow, do you want your butt to be as close to vertically on top of it as possible, or placed along a line perpendicular to the board surface, at 60 degrees to the snow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 That is, if your board's at 60 degrees to the snow, do you want your butt to be as close to vertically on top of it as possible, or placed along a line perpendicular to the board surface, at 60 degrees to the snow? The latter. Toilet-sitting is when your butt is more inclinated than the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allee Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 I usually ride 65/60 on my race boards, but it's dangerous to my health if I try to ride like that on my Axxess - that's down to 55/50. Stance on the raceboards is under 17 and on the Axxess is 17.5. Yet I ride my other 21.5cm waisted board at the higher angles and smaller stance, and it feels fine. Go figure. I accidentally set the angles on one of the raceboards too low last weekend, it felt okay carving but I found I couldn't direct the nose easily without killing the outside of my front leg, so I think I'll stick with the status quo. Would others agree that sometimes the choice of stance and angle would be dictated by the flex pattern of the board? I had a hell of a time with the Axxess and ended up setting it up completely differently from anything else I own, and I know shrederjen is having the same issues with hers. Just a thought ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpalka Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 I started at 55/50, then started moving up as I started riding a skinnier board. Then I started moving towards wider boards, now ride 50/40. I rode Joerg's #2 with 50/30 and it felt great. People's style preferences have something to do with the stances: I find it easier to pre-rotate into the turn when I run lower angles, and I haven't felt any disadvantage. When I ride my skinnier board (19cm) I use 55/50 to avoid overhang, and am still able to prerotate. By "pre-rotation" I mean the EC technique like shown in this movie: http://www.extremecarving.com/films/demos/mov/virage_push-pull.mov I'm sure different people desire different outcomes, but lower angles made my riding more comfortable and more fun. I haven't experimented much with my stance, basically between 18.5" and 21" and haven't felt much of a difference after having a few runs to adjust. tom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yyzcanuck Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 Have you guys gone from steep to shallow angles as your riding progressed? I've run the full monty on foot positioning. After following all the 'normal', or what some consider the correct way of doing it, I've found that it depends on where you are in ability (skill set?, bag of tricks?) and the equipment under foot. You're probably still experimenting... I know I am. Every season (every time on the hill!) it's a whole new ball game for me. Wider board, narrower board. Lift, no cant. Cant, no lift. Lift and cant but NEVER negative cant... that's just too old-fashioned for me! Wide stance, narrow stance. Positive splay, negative splay. Boots locked, unlocked, spring system, riser plates, rubber door matts, sombrero, tu-tu, you name it and it'll work for someone, maybe even you. I'm heading down the asymetric trail again too... not in the template shape, but in the core thickness. Asymetric's dead my ASSymetric! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian M Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 Color me jealous. I've always just set up to not have overhang. On my bUr-tOn, that means 60/60. I am dying to try a shallower stance, partially because of chronic knee pain, but also just to see what it is like. I've been on this stance for a long time and would love to mix it up. But until I find a wider board that rips, I think I'll leave 'em where they are...I like my face!;) Anyone have good reviews of something with a bigger waist? I have size 12.5 stompers and like to carve hard. Current ride is a Factory Prime 173 from around...um....'01? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 I am with Jack I ride the angles that put my toes and heels on the edges. It varies from board to board. the boards are hard to drive if you aren't on the edges in my opinion:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Buggs Posted March 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 Just got back from a Great day at Jimminy with the Carve Father crew, Elliot, Ron, Tony Z, Jeff, Rob C, Rob W,and Wes. We really turned some heads today. I lowered my front foot to 55 and it worked out great. I think I can still go a few more clicks on the front and a couple on the back. I was worried that my front Knee of 4 scopes would not like the lower angles. No problem and I think I had even better edge power on the hard pack. Hey, maye I will get on some softies before the end of the season ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 At this level, I think what works precisely best is dependent on the board/ bindings/ boots plus what you're doing. Someone above suggested that what works best for banging gates (something I don't do but would like to) is different from the optimum for carving. That sounds right, and it's my experience too. So I'd just take an afternoon when you have the time and try shifting a few degrees one way or the other. Ride it for a few runs and then decide if it's better or not. Repeat until optimized. I think if you're riding in controlled on-piste conditions then it's pretty easy to feel the difference, and you can adjust in a run or two. My personal "progression" mirrors that of others here, which may suggest I'm a follower of fashion (?) or perhaps we're following similar trajectories because they work. So I started at 30/40-odd degrees in the days when they drilled your board so you were stuck with what you got on day one. There was a 5-10 degree angle difference back then (I'd have to go and measure the board to confirm precisely what it was). Then I wentn through a few boards, and eventually in about '94 we got the "new race method" and sym boards, and it all clicked at about 50-degrees or so (working from memory: we were on inserts by then). Boards got narrower, and I cranked it up with them to about 18cm waist and 62-degrees. Narrower worked but felt too much like waterskiing to me and didn't give me quite enough lateral control. Now I'm back at 55-degrees with a little more board width. I tweak my settings each time I change board/ boots/ bindings (doesn't happen often), but otherwise once I've got it dialled I leave it and worry about the weather or something else. I ride parallel as mylegs are kind of parallel as are my bike pedals etc. Feel free to tell me why I should experiment with that: assuming you have standard legs, why is it good? Otherwise... there are other variables of course but that's a different can of worms. Overall, I don't think I'd do "on the toilet" irrespective of what angles I rode: blame not the equipment ;-) If you're worried about angles, just set 'em to something in the middle of the ranges people mention here and ride: pretty much anything will work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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