BTS Observations

[csquared]

Okay, here comes another typical long-winded csquared post. I apologize in advance.

There does not seem to have been a lot of comments yet about BTS experience so I thought I would start a thread for all of us test-pilots that are starting to understand how to get the most out of them.

I have only had two days on mine. I installed them on a pair of Raichle SB 324's. Previous to installing the BTS, I was riding with my rear boot unlocked and the front boot unlocked in the forward flex direction but locked in aft direction. In addition, I was riding race tongues from a pair of 225's with a yellow (soft) tongue in the rear and a red (stiff) tongue in the front [this always precipitated the most interesting questions from skiers].

I liked the free-flexing feeling that I had experienced with the unlocked slider on the rear foot but I was hoping that the BTS would give a bit of resistance and shock-absorbing effect so I bought yellow (soft) springs for the rear boot. Being accustomed to a stiff feel for the front foot, I bought blue (medium) springs for the front boot.

The installation was very easy but I had a bit of trouble getting the holes in the BTS to align with the holes in the shell and I could not get one pin in. Eventually, I jimmied the BTS down enough with a screwdriver that I could get the pin through. However, I was impressed that a one-size device would fit a boot that must have been made about 6 years ago.

Testing the flex was a disappointment initially. I felt more restriction on the rear foot than I wanted and that was with the softest spring and the most minimal pre-load. There just seemed to be too much resistance somehow. The front foot flexed more freely but I could not feel any difference in flex even with different springs and the front springs having considerable pre-load. However, I have since realized that these issues had nothing to do with the BTS per se.

Rode the boots for two days with the second day having a generous helping of hero snow conditions that leave you with a glow. I was starting to feel better about the BTS though the benefits seemed intangible. When I went to put the liners back in the boots today (I always remove and dry them after riding because so much snow ends up inside my boots) I started to look the boots over more carefully. I realized that that the upper cuff is cut so tightly over the buckle strap and hump at the instep that the upper cuff has almost no travel room and bottoms out quickly. In the case of the back foot, my forward cant setting (which is not terribly agressive) ate up any travel allowance that existed. Any flex from that bottom out point came through boot deformation (crushing) rather than cuff rotation. This was why I could not feel any real benefit from the BTS on my rear foot.

The solution was pretty simple. First I checked catalogue images of current Deeluxe boots and found that, yes, the cuff is cut much higher above the instep buckle these days so that the interference point is avoided. Some careful cutting with the Olfa knife and I amputated portions of the lower cuff to permit a greater range of flex (I probably get a range of about 30 degrees from neutral now which seems about right). Now the boots have much greater freedom of movement (although they do bottom eventually) and I can feel the spings actually controlling the flex.

I guess one observation I would make is that unless you can obtain some softer tongues for your boots, the springs can only make the boots stiffer in their movement. Some of the free-carve SB boot styles that Raichle made had quite soft tongues but the race boots typically had stiffer tongues so it might be worth finding some softer tongues if you intend to get the achieve a semblence of your current flex feel. Also, the stiffness differential between the yellow and blue springs is just noticeable so if you are looking for a very stiff experience, you probably need to use the red springs. You may also need to do some boot carving to give the boots a greater range of movement.

Anyone else have any thoughts? Problems? Anyone get their pants pinched in the spings yet?

[peter_x]

I have a pair of SB 413's that I got on BOL last season. I wonder if they are the kind with the large cuff area... I'll try to post pics later.

(I haven't had a single day on snow this season :()

[Tim Kienitz]

I wonder if some type of BTS spring system would work well on soft boot bindings. With the stiffer soft boots available today, it might be a good idea and increase performance. Just a thought.

Tim

[Thumper]

I didn't like the locking the forward lean mechanism on the Suzuka because it felt too stiff and made landing jumps harder when set less than 4. Settings greater than 2 made cross through turns on steeps more difficult. Walk mode was just too loose. Powder mode felt OK on heelsides but I didn't like the flex on toesides and I really wanted the range to be like 2 to 4 instead of 1 to 3. The BTS is SO sweet. Since I knew I liked some flex, I started with yellow springs. Before removing the 5 Position mechanism, I marked the range of motion for settings 2, 3 & 4 on the shell and then setup the BTS to center on 3. The BTS made such a huge difference, especially on toeside. Now I understand why some guys like stiff flexing boots -way more control and power to the edge. It's just so much more linear with the springs vs locked plastic shell flexing. Plus you can adjust the stiffness up incrementally. I'm about out of adjustment so I ordered blue springs. Maybe it's psychosomatic, but the BTS really helped me improve.

[csquared]

Okay, I am taking up too much bandwidth on this thread but here goes.

One of the reasons I started riding unlocked was that locked boots were placing a strain on the muscles in my lower back. It was too easy to just drive the weight of my body forward into the rear boot cuff to initiate a turn. However, anything that drove back (crud, bumps, augered nose, etc) was transmitted right to the soft tissues of around my lower spine. I rode with back stiffness for years thinking I was just constructed badly. Then I tried riding unlocked and, voila, no more back issues. Plus my technique became necessarily more correct in terms of turn initiation. In theory, the BTS should offer a little more shock isolation and give back a little of the forward lean turn initiation which should increase control.

Geez, for one of the most anticipated hardboot products of all time, there don't seem to be many opinions on it yet. Where are all the BTS riders? (SES probably )

[Dr D]

they have me totally confused:freak3: I was on a mission to get stiffer as I could totally collapse my AF700's I added race tongues and the BTS at the same time and now I am finding that things are to stiff. I will be putting the original tongues back on for further experimentation I have found so far that the adjustments are readily noticeable right down to the half turn and have been very impressed with the feel. It definitely takes the flex out of the finicky plastic and puts it onto the springs. the only complaint that I have is that when tightening the toeside springs you inevitabley tighten the rears as a result. there is no way to isolate the front and rear adjustments. It is really a problem if you install lighter springs on the heelsides. The device will have to get more complicated to solve that issue if it can be solved.:D

[Mike T]

I used to ride my Suzukas in powder mode. Then I went BTS yellow and now BTS blue all around.

I like the fact that the joint has a resisted flex right from the beginning but that it doesn't bottom out quickly. Makes it easier to play with things such as retraction turns, edge grabs, etc. I also find myself having fewer "too much edge angle at too low a speed" wipeouts, Not sure of the exact mechanics of that but it is a pattern.

With the yellow springs I was flexing the boots hard enough to really deform the tongue and the sides of the shells. The Blue give me plenty of range motion when I want it, but enough resistance so I don't have to move all over the board on easier runs. I still deform the sides of the shells more than I would like.

I am toying with the idea of getting some Indys next year to stiffen the boot sideways but use the softer Suzuka tongues to avoid interering ith the BTS.... anyone tried it yet perchance?

[neil sunday]

I have 25 days using the BTS with Raichle af 700'S that are quite modified. i am also using the hangl plate binding system with snowpro bindings on a donek 182 GS board.

I use the red springs and also have BOOSTER straps on my boots as well. the BTS system for me has made the boots flex EVENLY without any noticaeable "start up" or "lock out" interference.

My friend and co-coach has the same number of days on his, and they have withstood his demands... he has the same hangl plate setup, but rides with TD2 toe and heel pieces bolted to the hangl plate. he has torn the heelblock bolts right out of the hangl plate two times- both on toeside turns, but has not done any damage to the BTS... His observations were the same as mine- even flex throughout... We both ride with a "neutral" or somewhat straight up front foot, with the back leg flex forward more, and both ride with 10mm heel blocks on the back binding... Overall- well worth the money on the BTS.

[csquared]

There are numerous threads about the BTS. It has been available for a year now? Would that explain it?

Yeah, I know I'm late to the party Brian. But if you do a search using 'Boot Tuning System', it only turns up half a dozen threads mostly dealing with guys disappointment at not being able to get their hands on the few released last year or impressions based on one or two days of riding. I just thought there would be more feedback by now.

[Sinecure]

I'd like to see some pictures of the boot and bindings mods that csquared and neil sunday have done.

[neil sunday]

i'll take some pics and get 'em posted for you... today we've got 5 inches of snow followed by 1 inch of freezing rain!

[D-Sub]

Yeah, I know I'm late to the party Brian. But if you do a search using 'Boot Tuning System', it only turns up half a dozen threads mostly dealing with guys disappointment at not being able to get their hands on the few released last year or impressions based on one or two days of riding. I just thought there would be more feedback by now.

:lol::lol::lol: at you getting called out by The Gear Vacuum

he's got a point, and the problem lies in your choice of search terms. Very few people are going to type out Boot Tuning System, but a search for BTS and thread titles only brings up a LOT of info!

just lettin you know

[abakker]

If i were to buy a set of BTS and get two sets of springs, would there be any detriment to the BTS if i were to switch springs and settings often, because i ride lots of different conditions on a regular basis and would be using the BTS on my boots that i use for both powder and carving.

if so, is there likely to be any detriment to taking the bts on and off and switching with the original deeluxe lock lever?

Alex

[neil sunday]

I'd recommend finding a comfortable condition that suits all your riding styles and sticking with that. when you take things apart constantly they tend to loosen up and get sloppy just a bit... IMO. Plus-- quite honestly, I think guys are thinking this BTS dramatically changes with minute adjustments- that's not the case...

[csquared]

Before the BTS can be installed, it needs to be assembled with the desired spring strengths and therefore to change springs (or at least the lower rearward lean spring), the BTS must be removed from the boot. The BTS are fixed to the boot by two pins that are driven through the heavy plastic wings on the back of the boot shell. These are the same pins that hold the standard Raichle/Deeluxe mechanisms in place. The pins are simply friction fit and are retained by knurling on one end of the pin. Removal of the pins requires a hammer and a bolt or some other shaft to drive the pin out. I would anticipate that repeated removal and reinstallation of the retainer pins would eventually cause enough plastic wear that the pins will get loose. The pin can be inserted from either end of the hole so you have two ends to wear out before you are in trouble but after that, you might need to find a suitable machine screw and nut to replace the pin.

The BTS is not designed for frequent removal and changing of springs. However, changing the 'pre-load' tension on the springs is quite easy (just trun the compression nuts down on the spings from both ends to compress them tighter) and perhaps this would offer an easy way to obtain the range of flex for different conditions.

[Bobby Buggs]

Put my BTS to the test at the SES this week. I am very happy. I have been in powder mode on both feet for years and a few time especially in the spring I over flexed my rear boot almost spraining my foot. So I started out with the Yellow springon top and blue on the bottom this week since I wanted to emulate the powder mode. Yellow was toooo soft so I went to blue top and bottom.I am pleased with the even flex and resistance.

You need to give the BTS some time to get it properly adjusted and customize the loads, but once you do I think you will be pleased.

C2, I missed you this week, got to ride with Dave and I did ask about you and Rob S

[csquared]

... you've reached some of the same conclusions I have with the BTS. Yellow springs seem almost too soft to be useful.

This was not my year for SES, Buggs. But thanks for thinking of me. Next year I am hoping to make the trip again. Hope to see you there.

[dbmgreen]

Just using the search function, and resurrecting an old thread, I have fitted a new BTS system to my boots, and whilst I get that by winding up the bolts at either end, you can adjust the cant / limit the range of movement, what I don't have a good feel for, is how much these should be tightened, ie: how compressed should the springs be? I have mine set currently so the threaded bolt is just getting up into where the hole in the top nut is? Some pics I have seen have the threaded bolt protruding above the top of the nut?

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Just using the search function, and resurrecting an old thread, I have fitted a new BTS system to my boots, and whilst I get that by winding up the bolts at either end, you can adjust the cant / limit the range of movement, what I don't have a good feel for, is how much these should be tightened, ie: how compressed should the springs be? I have mine set currently so the threaded bolt is just getting up into where the hole in the top nut is? Some pics I have seen have the threaded bolt protruding above the top of the nut?

First answer:

What boots are you using?

How much do you weight?

Did you ride locked or unlocked?

Do you like more or less flex?? Rated 0 to 10 , zero = sloppy loose, 10= rock solid

Know this, it would appear that over time and many responses, those that seem to benefit the very most are either lighter riders or those who prefer a soft flexing boot set ups.

VS- Those , like myself, that rode ski boots in the early days, those that are heavy, those that LIKE to use the boot to power up the board's flex, tend to use red springs or tighten them down pretty tight. Keep in mind if you go from NO flex in the boot adjuster to ANY flex, the boot is now softer flexing right? Example. My first day I adjust the boots cant to match what I always rode and used all blue and maybe compressed them half way. As a result I had a terrible first impression, it felt like I was wearing moccassins. Again, any flex is more than no flex!!!

Trial and error my friend. I hope this helps somewhat.

PS> Can't help but getting a kick out of D-Sub's comment above. I think he was actually supporting my point. Although my comment does sound a bit snide. I have my moments:)

Originally Posted by csquared

Geez, for one of the most anticipated hardboot products of all time, there don't seem to be many opinions on it yet. Where are all the BTS riders? (SES probably )

Originally Posted by www.oldsnowboards.com

There are numerous threads about the BTS. It has been available for a year now? Would that explain it?

Originally Posted by csquared

Yeah, I know I'm late to the party Brian. But if you do a search using 'Boot Tuning System', it only turns up half a dozen threads mostly dealing with guys disappointment at not being able to get their hands on the few released last year or impressions based on one or two days of riding. I just thought there would be more feedback by now.

:lol::lol::lol:at you getting called out by The Gear Vacuum

he's got a point, and the problem lies in your choice of search terms. Very few people are going to type out Boot Tuning System, but a search for BTS and thread titles only brings up a LOT of info!

just lettin you know

Edited June 6, 2012 by www.oldsnowboards.com

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

About 3,120 results / that should keep you busy for a while :)

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=plate+systems&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=bomberonline.com&as_occt=any&safe=images&tbs=&as_filetype=&as_rights=#hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=bts+site:bomberonline.com&oq=bts+site:bomberonline.com&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=serp.12...32109.33765.0.36031.4.4.0.0.0.0.281.688.0j3j1.4.0...0.0.NGg5DoCKXGU&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=421633ce42ba0f4b&biw=819&bih=495

[dbmgreen]

First answer:

What boots are you using?

How much do you weight?

Did you ride locked or unlocked?

Do you like more or less flex?? Rated 0 to 10 , zero = sloppy loose, 10= rock solid

Know this, it would appear that over time and many responses, those that seem to benefit the very most are either lighter riders or those who prefer a soft flexing boot set ups.

VS- Those , like myself, that rode ski boots in the early days, those that are heavy, those that LIKE to use the boot to power up the board's flex, tend to use red springs or tighten them down pretty tight. Keep in mind if you go from NO flex in the boot adjuster to ANY flex, the boot is now softer flexing right? Example. My first day I adjust the boots cant to match what I always rode and used all blue and maybe compressed them half way. As a result I had a terrible first impression, it felt like I was wearing moccassins. Again, any flex is more than no flex!!!

Trial and error my friend. I hope this helps somewhat.

PS> Can't help but getting a kick out of D-Sub's comment above. I think he was actually supporting my point. Although my comment does sound a bit snide. I have my moments:)

Originally Posted by csquared

Originally Posted by www.oldsnowboards.com

Originally Posted by csquared

:lol::lol::lol:at you getting called out by The Gear Vacuum

he's got a point, and the problem lies in your choice of search terms. Very few people are going to type out Boot Tuning System, but a search for BTS and thread titles only brings up a LOT of info!

just lettin you know

What boots are you using? New Track 325s

How much do you weight? 180/190

Did you ride locked or unlocked? depends on snow, usually front locked back unlocked

Do you like more or less flex?? Rated 0 to 10 , zero = sloppy loose, 10= rock solid 7....

Learn't to ride in Ski boots, but spent the last 15 years in Burton Reactors then Blue Deelux boots.

I am sensitive to asking already answered questions, and very familiar with operators in google searches, but for the life of me couldn't track down what I wanted.

Essentially I have the blue springs, I was just looking for a "safe" setup to start with, happy to tweak after that? eg: how far down is the minimum the top nut should be screwed down?

Apologies if it has been asked and answered.

edit: BTS = Boot Tuning System huh, now I know :)

[Corey]

Start with the springs compressed about 1/4 of their length. Pack a folding hex key set so you can quickly spin the nuts (a 5mm hex fits in the holes in the nuts) without impaling yourself when you fall. Then ride. Then try compressing them more. Then ride. Then try compressing them less. You'll get quick feedback as to which you prefer and keep going that way. If you find the spring flopping around loose, you may want to get the softer springs. If you find you lock them down hard, you may want to get the stiffer springs.

It's so rider-specific that it's hard to generalize. I pulled the 1/4 number out of thin air, just compress them a bit to start. If you like a locked front and open rear with the old lean adjusters, you'll want the front cranked down a bit more and the rearwith minimal compression.

Note that there are a couple different generations of the BTS. The early ones had a simple nut and a long threaded rod that stuck out the top. The later ones have a nut that protrudes down within the spring so the threaded rod generally doesn't stick out the top.

[fin]

dbmgreen,

Corey has given you some excellent advice to get going. Hopefully obvious, but the best method is to bring that 5mm key to the hill with you and adjust until you find the "sweet spot". Bit of a drag as you have to stop and make the adjustment, but once done, you never touch again. I also recommend marking the spots with a black pen or equivalent so if you do make any changes to have a "home" position.

You can do a pretty good and get say 90% there (IMHO) at home on the living room floor. Buckle everything in and adjust the BTS until it feels neutral and like you are not fighting it. You do need to drop into what I call your "home" position (ie. slightly crouched down, knees bent, etc). Kinda the spot where at turns originate from. Then adjust BTS until it feel natural to be in that position. At least gets you started.

Corey is correct on the models, early versions had the shaft stickying out the top nut, new version (last 3+ years) have a flush nut so the shaft never sticks out the top. Keeps the cuff of your pants in one piece. :rolleyes:

[dbmgreen]

Fin / Corey thanks for this info, It was perhaps pics of the older version that had me a bit concerned :)