Chopped up narrow steeps: is it me or my equipment?

[Derf]

When I went riding yesterday, I tried to apply what I read here in order to go down narrow steeps. In addition to that, it is a weekend, so conditions got chopped up quickly. I have a Nitro GTX 166 (with a 9,5 m sidecut radius) with Catek OS1 and Burton Furnace boots. I am 5'8" and weight 160 lbs. I have been snowboarding since 1993, riding alpine since 1997 and trying to improve since 2003-2004 (when I discovered BomberOnline). I ride on average 5-7 days a year.

So when I get down the slope, I try to stay low, bends the knees (and keep them seperated) and try to take the whole width of the slope, but I still can't bleed of enough speed to get down without skidding to keep my speed down. I try to angulate more to get a tighter turning radius, but during the process the board gets too much speed, so when I get low enough, the board is going fast so the turning radius is bigger and thus, I can't get prependicular to the fall line fast enough. In other words, I can't get low unless I go fast, and I need to get low to turn tighter, so when I get low, I am going too fast to make tight turns. It's even harder because I have to absorb the irregularities of the terrain.

I am wondering: is my technique bad, am I lacking experience or is my board too stiff? I feel that my board need lots of input to turn properly and needs to be ridden on the tail (my stance is at the reference stance: 25 mm back). I am starting to wonder if my board is too stiff for me or if am just not good enough? Like I said, I can turn it, but need to work hard to do it. Even when I go down a wide green and I am getting low (by bending the knees, not at the waist), the turning radius is large (in my opinion) for a 9.5 m board.

Which brings me to another question: you guys all rave about 12-13 m boards and I find that it's hard to make my 9.5 m board turn tight enough. That makes me think that maybe my board is too stiff for me. I am considering a Pilot (167,168 or 172), which supposed to be softer. How does a softer 12-13m board compare to a stiffer 9.5 m board? What gives stability at higher speed: stiffness? running lenght? sidecut radius? Has anyone ridden a Pilot for freecarving?

Sorry if it is long winded and sorry if I am not clear, I try to do my best to put my thouhts into words. Any input will be greately appreciated.

P.S.: I don't have any pictures or videos of me riding as I ride mostly alone.

[D-Sub]

having looked at photos of me vs photos of better carvers, I see that their boards are really bent in the middle of some turns. I picture them literally pushing into the middle of the board, making it arc harder. I think that with technique almost any rider can properly bend almost any board.

me...I think I sorta just tilt the board and let it turn...not sure...but that sounds sorta like what you might be experiencing?

honestly...it seems almost futile to ask a question in a forum...but maybe you don't have any more experienced riders to hook up with and give you a look, in person?

[Gtanner]

Derf,

Again without seeing you ride in person, I'll give it a shot.

Many riders keep their hips and knees working as one...ie you feel like you have to get really low to bend the board and get it on edge. In fact, try to keep your knees independant from the rest of your body. So what I mean is keep your body upright and try driving your front knee into the slope (on toe-side) and same thing on backside (early-mid turn). While keeping your body upright, you'll end up getting your board more on edge while still keeping your center of gravity over the edge. And when I say drive the knee, I really mean to bend it and pur some force into the board, with a 9.5m sidecut, you'll likely feel it kick you around and into the next turn.

The best example of this is a picture of a Mathew Boisetto (sp?) toeside carve http://snowboard.mountainzone.com/2001/worldcup/html/ischgl/psl-photo01.html . He tends to ride more upright than Jasey, but they both have the board high on edge.

Hope this makes sense.

-Gord

[D-Sub]

linky no worky, Gord

[Michael_A]

How about this pic...

[D-Sub]

gosh...doesnt that go against everything here? I mean...his upper boddy is leaning over. I thought the idea was to have the upper body upright?

[Pow]

Are you making sure the board is good and high (angle wise)? Im a crappy inexperienced carver, and i can't apply nearly as much as i know, but from what ive heard and the little i have done cranking the board high on its edge is the way to control the steeps.

There is one thing i think i can relate to you on: im the same weight as you. I'm on a 162 and for me it turns pretty wide unless i crank it high and downweight with everything ive got. I had Pogo give me a slightly softer board than their usual Overdose, fearing that I wouldnt be able to turn a stiffer board at all, and im glad i did. but I think i still underestimated my need for softness. Id say try softer boards. Many guys on here are closer to the 200+ weight range, they can bend their boards like a wet noodle.

For stability at high speeds, length sidecut and stiffness all play a part. Its too complicated for me, I tried to figure it out and I just gave up:smashfrea

And the conditions you described are probably the most difficult carving conditions. the only way they could be made worse is if a few new stumps and rocks decided to shoot up, somebody sprayed everything with a hose and froze the entire run, and an entire busload of senior citizens skidding down on straight skiis decided to use that run at the same time. (but you know that already)

[Derf]

When I speak about getting low, I am getting my center of gravity low, but I can't touch the snow on either heel side or toe side, no matter how hard I try. I used to be able to touch it on toeside before changing my technique. I figure I was bending at the waist. I don't know how high I get the board at an angle though.

When I crank it real hard, I manage to crank some moderately tight turns, but I need to go fast to crank it hard, or else the board does not bend enough. And when I go fast, I cover maybe 3 to 5 m during the transition from one side to the other, it's not instantaneous, so it's like a line between the turns. And when I crank it real hard, I get tired real quickly and I have to catch my breath at the end of a run. Yesterday, after cranking it hard to try to master a narrow blue 2-3 times, the time after that, I wasn't even able to crank it hard enough (and the trees were coming a little too fast for me).

When I turn, I drive my front knee on heel side and my rear knee on toeside. If I drive too much my front knee on heelside, I get chatter, so I shift my weight rearward to eliminate chatter (that's what I call riding the tail).

About the conditions, it's what I find riding weekends and weeknights. Maybe I could try going really early on weekends. My work schedule is not very flexible, even less now because overtime season started and I am doing 50 hours weeks.:rolleyes:

I rode twice with Bartron, I think I'll try to ride with him before he goes out West. There are a couple of other riders here in Montréal, but I don't know how they ride. I'll have to try to get to ride with them.

Thanks for the input, keep it coming.

[D-Sub]

you already mentioned the definite possibility that the board is just too stiff for you.

[csquared]

1. It helps to plan your attack on the steeps. Lead with your best suit (as they say in Bridge) and make your first hard turn on a pitch a toe side. I personally find it easiest to set up from a relaxed heel side (skid it if you must to keep the speed down) cutting perpendicularly across the top of the pitch at modest speed and then throw down a very hard toe side that initiates from about perpendicular to the fall line at the middle of the pitch. This is a moment when you need to suspend anxiety and just rip the turn. If you blow it, you're only going to be a few inches above the snow and you won't be going at any great speed so relax and give it a shot. Hold the turn until you are travelling perpendicular to the fall line and try to exit the turn at the same speed that you started it.

2. This is when you need to execute the 'cross under' turn much talked about here. That is don't stand up to unweight - relax the pressure on the edge of the board and let your body translate over the board down the fall line until your board is on the heel side edge (all without coming up from the stance in which you finished the last turn). This maneuver is critical to execute a fast transition between turns failing which (as you know) you are going to be rocketing toward the side of the run.

3. The upcoming heel side is just as critical as the toe side. However, this is where you will need some finesse because it is much harder to execute the quick tight radius heel side. Proper stance is critical but nervousness is going to destroy it. Two simple rules to remember are: keep your back hand forward of your front boot, and drive your knees apart (this effectively gives you the drive into the front boot that Gord is talking about and keeps your weight centered during the critical parts of the turn). These are not really technique principles, they are artificial ways to get the feel for what works and improve your confidence because riding the pitches is all about confidence. Again don't stop driving the turn until your board is pointing across the hill.

4. Once you have cycled through these two turns, you should have a feel for what works on the particular pitch you are riding and this should give you a bit of comfort to keep going. It is always hard to maintain discipline over your speed but you have to keep exiting each turn at the speed you entered at. If you let speed build, you will find it harder to drive your turns around and will no longer be able to control speed by carving.

5. Pitches can be treacherous when they get clogged with junk snow in the middle. This typically happens because of skier traffic which favours one side of the pitch or the other and tends to execute all small amplitude turns, causing a pile of loose snow just where you want to finish your turn and execute a delicate 'cross under'. You are most vulnerable at this point. I don't know really what to recommend except to say that if you have sunlight it makes the terrain more readable and you can anticipate some of the chop. In dull light, it can just be brutal and even dangerous. I would say, stay away, especially with a shorter board that has a short sidecut radius and tends to be a bit nervous.

6. I don't know anything about your board but stiff shorter boards tend to be designed for slalom racing and trying to make them carve a pitch with complete carved turns would be difficult. Although having a longer board with a longer sidecut radius may seem a counterintuitive solution to riding the steeps, here are the benefits: more effective edge that won't let go when it is pushed hard; more stability when driving the board through less than perfect terrain; more predictable reactions when initiating and executing a turn. Although this is somewhat controversial, the point has been made previously on this site that sidecut radius becomes somewhat less relevant when the board is at an extreme angle to the snow. If you know how to drive the board, even a 16 m sidecut can be made to execute a tight radius turn. Even though you are trying to control speed, length is your friend.

Don't get discouraged, it will come together with time and work. I think a great place to gradually develop skills and confidence is Mont Grand Fonds which has an interesting series of hills that have progressively steeper pitch as you go from one side of the mountain to the other. Find your comfort level on one pitch and then move north to the neighbouring run until you can conquer it. This is probably out of the way for you but it is worth the trip to find no crowds and affordable lift tickets.

Sorry about the lengthy post. I'm sick in bed and bored out of my mind. I wish I could give you this in french for maximum clarity, but my french is far worse than your English (my compliments on your bilingual skills).

[BlueB]

Try driving both knees, not just one. On toe side it's essential.

Heelside chatter starts when the board is just starting to bite hard but there's not enough pressure or, out of ballance. So you ride the tail, which releases the nose and chatter is less. However that doe'snt do anything good to edge angle and bending of the board. Do exactely opposite at that moment - drive knees even harder and put even more weight forward. The nose will bite in like crazy and you'll feel the arc tightenning. You will not fall as the centrifugal force will become greater. Stiffer the board, more you need to load the nose. In the days of old stiff straight skis, that was the only way to arc them hard.

If snow is not too hard, you can do really big upright unweighing and jump onto new edge from transition. Lot of vertical movement certainly helps load the board. I skied slalom like that before I discovered cross-under.

Ice is another story and the flex of the board has to be right for your weight/level of aggression (not that I can ride ice any good).

[David Glynn]

I'm 5'10" 165 and ride boards with 14 to 19 m sidecuts that are pretty stiff

( coiler rure race, simms burner ) and ride on some pretty steep and narrow runs. As things get steeper I try to lower my center of mass and really crank the board up on edge. The higher the edge angle the tighter the turn. Also I try to get the board as far away from me at the begining of the turn as possible and then settle down on to it early and then start pushing thru the turn. Every down has an up. Try looking into your turn even to the point of uphill and don't initiate the next turn until you feel yourself slow back into your comfort zone. Once you start touching that comfort zone you will start relaxing and you'll be able to get a nice flow going. It's pretty fun on the steep when your board's new carving edge is uphill and your whole body is below it for that fraction of time at the begining of the turn.

Indian

[Bobby Buggs]

Derf, what you are trying to accomplish is one of the most difficult disciplines of the sport. Getting in only 7 days a season makes it even harder. There are so many things that can factor in your success or failure. Some of the things said here are right on but you still have to have that commitment, you know when your onions are starting to shrink because your doing 20 and headed for the trees . That my friend we all deal with and some days I can’t get it done, the shrinkage wins.

Take the hill in small pieces, Get a couple good turns in at a time, stop and think about what you just did. As you get the feel go for 3-4 turns and so on. Don’t forget fatigue will also be a factor.

Hope that helped

[Bobby Buggs]

It's pretty fun on the steep when your board's new carving edge is uphill and your whole body is below it for that fraction of time at the begining of the turn.

Indian

Dude, that is the ultimate Rush, I live for that feeling

[Jack M]

Speed is controlled by carving - no, really carving, at high edge angles. A lot of people really only do this in the bottom half of the carve. You need to minimize time between carves, and angulate more and earlier. You can only do this with good cross-through. Flick the board from edge to edge underneath you. Show your base to the people gawking at you from uphill. Don't stand up and haul your carcass across the board. You can see when you're doing it right when the end of one trench overlaps the beginning of the next. You also need to drive the nose of the board hard for the first half of the turn. As Fawcett put it, dive and drive.

[Jack M]

gosh...doesnt that go against everything here? I mean...his upper boddy is leaning over. I thought the idea was to have the upper body upright?

Nope. Knees apart, ass down, shoulders pretty much level to the hill, hands off the snow.... great pic. Look at the distance between his chest and his knees. Lesser riders would have their chest on their knees at the speed he's probably riding.

[wavechaser]

It's you.

[Linus]

It's you.

C'mon....be nice....

I do agree with wavechaser though.

Honestly, I think you just need more time to ride. Just go out and ride more. Even though you can't touch the snow, don't even try to reach for them. "If you build it(technique), they(slopes) will come....."

[Mats]

Steep is ok. But steep and chopped up... That´s a what you call a "WHY?" slope. Go home and put on your crosscountry skis and enjoy the silence in the wood;-)

[zoltan]

I'm just a beginner, but on steeps I have a habit of continuing to look down the trail, instead of where the board is traveling. Once I force myself to look in the proper direction, everything starts falling into place.

Are you riding with your boots locked? I ride the LeMans, and as soon as I lock the boots, my turn radius get's pretty big. I get a fair amount of angle on the board by using my ankles.

[jtslalom]

Derf,

The only advice I will give is to ride as much as possible. I never really had any one give advice to me when I first started riding and learned by watching ski racers. Just get out and ride and then ride some more. There were about 6 consecutive years in a row that I rode over 50 times a year. Those were the years I got better and understood my riding style.

[Michael_A]

I agree,

I started this year after 1 yr on softboots last year. On my 20th day out (or so) this winter everything started to click and I went out and charged a wide well-groomed black diamond. It was awesome but I couldn't have done it any earlier in my learning curve.

Michael

[FTA2R]

you have less riding days than a lot of us in the mid atlantic. unless you're some great natural athlete / boarder, just go easier on yourself w/ expectations. guys out west log more in one season than the total # of days i have on a board.

[RJ-PS]

Derf,

I'm right there with you man.

Steep and choppy is a real nut-minimizer, especially if you don't bring your A-game.

I can tell you from experience that my success or failure is largely a result of my confidence/aggressiveness.

It seems that when I'm nervous about the run and I don't psyche myself up I lose an edge or skid some turns.

When I'm in animal mode and just want to attack the slope I find myself kickin' a$$ and takin' names.

My resulting theory is that when I am nervous I tend to do a number of improper things:

1. tense up = not absorbing terrain

1._________= fighting my equipment.

2. go slow = going slow actually makes me go fast as I can't seem to bleed enough speed to enter the next turn in a good position.

2.________= there is something terrifying about starting your heel turn with your head further down the mountain than your board, still it is the only way whip around a turn fast enough to bleed speed and start the next turn.

3. think too much = decreasing the size of my nuts and making everything worse.

I'm sure that there are technical ways to explain a lot of this, but for most of us (even the technical ones) we are not robots. We have to deal with the thinking side of us that is not a & b = c but if I do a & b then c is gonna hurt something fierce! If you have your technique pretty well dialed in then for them most part it just all has to come together quicker. So if you can take the same aggressiveness that you manifest on your favorite intermediate or intermediate/advanced slope, you can probably replicate it on the advanced run.

good luck and remember to bring your A-game.

[crucible]

I have found that the hardest thing to do in this situation is to trust the centripetal force and COMMIT to the turn- like Yoda said, "Do, or do not- there is no try".

Other useful tips that I have picked up through trial and error are:

-bend your knees and get lower at the start of the turn

-keep your hands forward and parallel to the slope to keep your shoulders level

- load the nose at the start of the turn as if you're going to do a "tip-turn" for the really steep slopes.

The best advice I can give you though is to get more than 4-7 days of riding in per season. If nothing else, ride continuously for three or four days straight- it'll do wonders for your technique.

George