Coyotes...

[Justin A.]

I know that I would be more prone to tacke a gunman than a knifeman, Knives are designed as very short range TOOLS. Basically, a swinging gun will hurt to be whacked with, but a swinging knife could kill you.

Yes Bob. EVERYONE should carry a f***ing gun, fewer guns dosen't mean lower crime. There is NO risk involved in a school shooting until the police show up because it is guaranteed by some STUPID federal laws that you can't posess a firearm or any weapon for that matter within 1000 feet of a school zone. Lets pass more laws that way people can't defend themselves anywhere, sound good? Ok, lets do it, come to my house first and try taking my stuff.

And nobody said that EVERYONE needs to walk around with a gun. He was saying that IF the teacher had the option to carry a gun to school, and he chose to exercise his/her right to do so, this tragedy could have been avoided. There was an incedent a few years ago, I don't remember where or when, but a student came into a school waving a gun threatening to kill people and a teacher that did have the right to carry drew his gun to the kid and the student fell to his knees crying blah blah blah and nobody was hurt. What people are trying to say is that the government has no right whatsoever to take away your or my rights to self defense by whatever means nessicary, not that everyone needs to carry a gun. Get out of your black and white mindset and start seeing some shades of grey. Welcome to the real world, it isn't black and white.

________

Toyota corolla e80 history

[C5 Golfer]

Sad part about this one and many before this Nut Case went off and killed innocent kid is that "we" (as in a collective of the civilian majority) focus on the gun that shot the kids. When is society going to wake up, realize and see the problem as a social problem and find someway to help and educate troubled children when they are young and being programmed to be harmful adults? We need to start somehow to fix this growing problem that is only going to get worse. If we were to start today assuming of course we understood and had the ability, it would take 30yrs to have society see any changes that would swing the pendulum the other way.

Any of you have any ideas how society can change? If I were to be invited to Pres Bush’s Summit next on this School Violence issue - this is the area I would be championing, not the weapon.

[Dr D]

There must be forty or fifty million teenagers in this country, A million of them might be depressed, a hundred thousand of them might have serious phsycological problems and many are insane (not crminal).

BobD

Another interesting fact about school shootings. In every case the one commonality was prescription psychoactive drugs. Specifically ritalin and a few others. the drugs in question are prescribed off label use for kids. They have never been tested on children and we are finding now that some of them make kids suicidal. How about we stop drugging our children and start parenting and mentoring and feeding them real food instead of processed junk. Guns have been here since the beginning and school shootings are something relatively new in the last few years. I gotta agree with some others on the latest incidents. the pervert in colorado had lots of time and no threats until the cops showed up and we all know that standoffs can last for days. He obviously didn't really care if he made it out. He obviously had a plan to get his jollies before the cops got him. If I was planning a violent crime I'd start at the places that I knew I had a free shot first. schools government buildings etc these places get in the news a lot. Gee they are the places that have total bans on weapons. doesn't take a rocket scientist here people. Everyone does not need to carry a gun. Less than 3% is enough statistically to deter crime. Everyone does have to have the right to carry one that simple fact is what makes the 3% effective. The AMish thing is so bizarre that it boggles the mind. I don't even know where to start on that one. Its obviously not a pattern kinda thing. Not to many amish killers out there. Not much motivation for it he obviously wanted to kill people and chose victims known the world over for there passivity. Again no risk to the shooter upfront.

[Dr D]

Sad part about this one and many before this Nut Case went off and killed innocent kid is that "we" (as in a collective of the civilian majority) focus on the gun that shot the kids. When is society going to wake up, realize and see the problem as a social problem and find someway to help and educate troubled children when they are young and being programmed to be harmful adults? We need to start somehow to fix this growing problem that is only going to get worse. If we were to start today assuming of course we understood and had the ability, it would take 30yrs to have society see any changes that would swing the pendulum the other way.

Any of you have any ideas how society can change? If I were to be invited to Pres Bush’s Summit next on this School Violence issue - this is the area I would be championing, not the weapon.

This is absolutely a social issue kids are developing more and more problems. WE have answered with more and more drugs and less and less human interaction. What I don't get is the concept that we give them drugs everytime any thing is wrong for 16 years of their life and then we wonder why they choose illicit drugs when there girlfriend dumps them or there is some crisis in their life. Somebody explain to me why we have a drug problem in this country and then justify why its different with prescription drugs for every ache and ill.. I am obviously not advocating that we ban all drugs. Just that we should use them responsibly for saving lives and true emergencies etc.

[thomas]

I know that I would be more prone to tacke a gunman than a knifeman, Knives are designed as very short range TOOLS. Basically, a swinging gun will hurt to be whacked with, but a swinging knife could kill you.

I don't know, but I always thought you use a gun for shooting bullets and not for swinging at people. So my guess is, you take a step towards the nut case and are down before you are able to take the second one.

- Thomas

[Dr D]

I know that I would be more prone to tacke a gunman than a knifeman, Knives are designed as very short range TOOLS. Basically, a swinging gun will hurt to be whacked with, but a swinging knife could kill you.

I don't know, but I always thought you use a gun for shooting bullets and not for swinging at people. So my guess is, you take a step towards the nut case and are down before you are able to take the second one.

- Thomas

according to the dept of education

Media attention aside school violence is not very common. There are between 12 and twenty homicides in americas 100,000 schools each year and that includes gang violence which is much more common. Overall violence in general in schools has halved in the last decade. Apparently something is working.

It just wouldn't sound as interesting on the news if we didn't play it up to be epidemic though:barf:

[Dr D]

I know that I would be more prone to tacke a gunman than a knifeman, Knives are designed as very short range TOOLS. Basically, a swinging gun will hurt to be whacked with, but a swinging knife could kill you.

I don't know, but I always thought you use a gun for shooting bullets and not for swinging at people. So my guess is, you take a step towards the nut case and are down before you are able to take the second one.

- Thomas

Guns are in general not well suited to short range work. handguns would be the exception. It would be relatively easy to take on a rifle. once you are inside the barrel itself they are just clubs. A handgun is only dangerous on the muzzle end whereas a knife is dangerous the length of it. Generally speaking guns operate differently and some knowledge of what kind it is would make jumping the guy easier or harder. once a single action fires it has to be recocked to fire for instance so if you jump the guy when the gun is pointed away all youhave to do is keep it pointed away. some guns don't function well if grabbed around the middle. some torn skin from grabbing the slide of an automatic is a small price to pay. A knife can kill you or wound you repeatedly and in almost any motion. A toss up for some but I think I'd take the gun guy to. I have an extensive knowledge of how they work and a good judge of whether the weilder knows what he is doing or not. Many guns will show if they are loaded or not if you know what to look for.

[C5 Golfer]

according to the dept of education

Media attention aside school violence is not very common. There are between 12 and twenty homicides in americas 100,000 schools each year and that includes gang violence which is much more common. Overall violence in general in schools has halved in the last decade. Apparently something is working.

It just wouldn't sound as interesting on the news if we didn't play it up to be epidemic though:barf:

I can see gang violence up but where do you or did you find the info or stats on violence in schools being cut in half -- what dept of ed? I have a hard time believing that, even sensationalistic media set aside.

[Dr D]

I can see gang violence up but where do you or did you find the info or stats on violence in schools being cut in half -- what dept of ed? I have a hard time believing that, even sensationalistic media set aside.

It was in an msn article and quoted as coming from a dept of education study done recently. I haven't had time to check the source but it was contrary to the normal news brewhaha so I figured it was legit.

[Dr D]

article entitled 10 myths of school shootings. ITs up on msnnbc site right now

[C5 Golfer]

It was in an msn article and quoted as coming from a dept of education study done recently. I haven't had time to check the source but it was contrary to the normal news brewhaha so I figured it was legit.

From that report which was dated 2002, I found this info.

1974 - 1 incident

1978 1 incident

1985 1 incident

1986 1 incident

1987 1 incident

1988 1 incident

1989 1 incident

1992 3 incidents

1993 2 incidents

1994 3 incidents

1995 3 incidents

1996 4 incidents

1997 4 incidents

1998 4 incidents

1999 5 incidents

2000 1 incident

HMMMM sounds like it is increasing. If I had time I'd graph that out, seems exponential to me.

[gdboytyler]

The annual number of school related homicides has dropped precipitously from around 50 deaths in the early 90's to 28 deaths in 2004/2005 and 5 deaths in 2005/2006. The 2006/2007 school year is at 6 deaths (I think).

http://www.schoolsafety.us/School-Associated-Violent-Deaths-p-6.html

Overall, it looks like the schools have gotten safer. The occasional maniac just makes big news.

[BobD]

I didn't want to hijack the big gun thread, but that thread seemed a little sick, as those kids get burried for lack of gun control. Yes, I know, fun comes first. It's just collateral damage. Price you have to pay for being scared of your own goverment.

BobD

[bobdea]

the other thread is far from sick, does that mean the next time someone dies in a avalanche we're not allowed to talk about riding powder?

do you want a ban on knives too?

how about alcohol?

you can go on and on about the evil of guns and why they need to be banned but there are bigger issues out there, if you're worried about kids worry about sex ed, improving drug abuse prevention/treatment and improving the way kids are raised in general.

If some of these issues were better handled there would be way more lives saved, probably be a few less shootings too.

[Justin A.]

BobD...WTF are you talking about...that doesn't even make sense...Im not attacking, just lost. Please clarify.

[skategoat]

on a seperate note japan chose not to invade mainland america because of one factor. They new that the average american had more than one gun in the house and new how to use it. Switzerland made it through two world wars as a neutral because even though it was small and relatively weak, it had every adult male trained and armed. they don't just have handguns in switzerland they have any and all weapons used by a modern militia as the law intended. WE aren't one of the last truly free countries in the world by mistake we fought for it and we protect it. That is slipping and the future is a big question mark. Another HITLER can't happen without total gun control. For my children I will stand up for that right until I die. I will teach them the same. Only sheep fear the wolf

Holy Hannah! You're joking again, right?

Japan's principle objective through the 30s and 40s was to secure access to resources and create a "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere".

Their objective in striking Pearl Harbor was to neutralize the USA's military power in the Pacific. Ever wonder why they chose to bomb Pearl Harbour but never landed any invasion troops?

Mainland USA wasn't even within the realm of possibility. Even if they wanted to invade the USA and it was defended by hairdressers armed with Super Soakers, Japan would not have succeeded. Just look at a map to see why. It had nothing to do with guns.

[Justin A.]

Holy Hannah! You're joking again, right?

Japan's principle objective through the 30s and 40s was to secure access to resources and create a "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere".

Their objective in striking Pearl Harbor was to neutralize the USA's military power in the Pacific. Ever wonder why they chose to bomb Pearl Harbour but never landed any invasion troops?

Mainland USA wasn't even within the realm of possibility. Even if they wanted to invade the USA and it was defended by hairdressers armed with Super Soakers, Japan would not have succeeded. Just look at a map to see why. It had nothing to do with guns.

Actually...one of the reasons that Japan chose not to invade the mainland WAS because of the high numbers of privatley owned firearms, among other things. The west coast is mostly sea cliffs with the exception of some beaches. It was the possiblity of a US militia that kept the japaneese off our asses. Another little known fact is that Japan actually launched a bombing campaign on the mainland US using unmanned balloons. Only one was even remotley sucessful and it dropped its payload about 65 miles from the nearest sign of civilization. Other balloons and their payloads were found all over the west and midwest.

They didn't land any troops on Hawaii because it would have been a total losing battle right there. If they HAD landed on Hawaii then the couple thousand troops that were there would have decimated the invasion force. The bases on hawaii were the main staging point for troops going to china and the entire pacific at that time and it still is. This means that not only were there thousands of troops, but also enough military capital to hold the island for months against an invasion.

Japan did WANT to invade the Mainland US, but they didn't see it as being a feasable endeavour, which it wasn't because of the issues I discussed above. The citizen owned firearms were an issue, but there were many others as well.

[Dr D]

the other thread is far from sick, does that mean the next time someone dies in a avalanche we're not allowed to talk about riding powder?

do you want a ban on knives too?

how about alcohol?

you can go on and on about the evil of guns and why they need to be banned but there are bigger issues out there, if you're worried about kids worry about sex ed, improving drug abuse prevention/treatment and improving the way kids are raised in general.

If some of these issues were better handled there would be way more lives saved, probably be a few less shootings too.

AMEN.......

[C5 Golfer]

AMEN.......

I SECOND THAT -- well said!

[Justin A.]

I SECOND THAT -- well said!

I third it

[skategoat]

Actually...one of the reasons that Japan chose not to invade the mainland WAS because of the high numbers of privatley owned firearms, among other things. The west coast is mostly sea cliffs with the exception of some beaches. It was the possiblity of a US militia that kept the japaneese off our asses. Another little known fact is that Japan actually launched a bombing campaign on the mainland US using unmanned balloons. Only one was even remotley sucessful and it dropped its payload about 65 miles from the nearest sign of civilization. Other balloons and their payloads were found all over the west and midwest.

They didn't land any troops on Hawaii because it would have been a total losing battle right there. If they HAD landed on Hawaii then the couple thousand troops that were there would have decimated the invasion force. The bases on hawaii were the main staging point for troops going to china and the entire pacific at that time and it still is. This means that not only were there thousands of troops, but also enough military capital to hold the island for months against an invasion.

Japan did WANT to invade the Mainland US, but they didn't see it as being a feasable endeavour, which it wasn't because of the issues I discussed above. The citizen owned firearms were an issue, but there were many others as well.

Invasion of the mainland USA was logistically impossible. It had nothing to do with privately owned firearms and everything to do with logistics.

For a parallel, look at the amount of preparation, personnel and materiel required to invade continental Europe. And we're talking here about 40 kms from England to France, not the 8000 from Japan to California. Do you really think Japan could've mounted such an operation?

And dude, with the exception of the Flying Tigers and transport pilots "flying the Hump", there were no American troops in China before or during the Second World War.

[BobD]

And after every one has had thier reply, this thread can sink into oblivion.

There are so many standard NRA urban legends and the Japanese invasion deterent is just another of those.

My point was that the big gun thread illustrated the real reason most people have guns, FUN. I have to admit, guns are fun. They are aesthetically beautiful, skill demanding, exciting and satisfying. All the things we get out snowboarding. If thousands of innocent people were dying every year through the misuse of snowboards, I would say bye bye snowboard. Even though I think I am safe on a board, I wouldn't put my pleasure above the lives of so many people. I would not like it. It would feel unfair.

The most outspoken critics of gun control are gun lovers. They not people who hate guns, but feel a civic or personel duty to own one, and therefor defend these liberal gun laws.

the other thread is far from sick, does that mean the next time someone dies in a avalanche we're not allowed to talk about riding powder?

do you want a ban on knives too

Ofcourse I don't mean that. Lining eleven little girls up and shooting them in the back of the head with an automatic has no comparison to avalanche accidents. Knives have a lot of everyday uses, guns don't.

I realise that nothing will change. No politician would run the gauntlet of the NRA. I just get fed up with the BS justifications for guns (like the one above) and paying to clean up the mess caused by guns

BobD

[Dr D]

Invasion of the mainland USA was logistically impossible. It had nothing to do with privately owned firearms and everything to do with logistics.

For a parallel, look at the amount of preparation, personnel and materiel required to invade continental Europe. And we're talking here about 40 kms from England to France, not the 8000 from Japan to California. Do you really think Japan could've mounted such an operation?

And dude, with the exception of the Flying Tigers and transport pilots "flying the Hump", there were no American troops in China before or during the Second World War.

The idea comes from a quote from a japanese officer. I am sure logistics were an issue however the invasion of the alaska chain proved that hopscotching down to the mainland was an untenable option. It was a small military contingent and a dedicated civilian effort that stopped the invasion of alaska. the officer was quoted many years after the war talking about many reasons why they did what they did.

[Dr D]

As horrific as the world gets from time to time it doesn't make any sense to give up the Right to protect yourself. It also doesn't make any sense to abdicate those rights to a government. Governments have done the same thing over and over through history and it wasn't eleven little girls it was in the millions. Pick a genocidal maniac leader and one commonality you will find through history is gun control first before said maniac came to power. Try reading some of Hitlers thoughts on gun control. the people getting slaughtered in Dafur are the ones not allowed to possess weapons. Justify to your grandchildren or great great grandchildren why you gave away the simple right to liberty.

"Liberty, taking the word in its concrete sense, consists in the ability to choose."

-Simone Weil-

[big mario]

A well regulated militia, being nesscary to the security of a free state....

It amazes me how often those first 4 words are dropped from the recitation of the second amendmendt. I have, at various times, refused to look at this and the silly laws threads because of the tired nra talking points that permeate our culture and "discourse" these days. I am sickened and disgusted by what has happend in the last few weeks in our schools across our country. In the name of fear and safety we have given up the 4th, 5th, 6th and 8th amendmendts, and yet we fight any attempt to appy simple commen sense to gun ownership. The latest answer to what has happend in our schools is to bring more guns into the schools and arm the teachers. Because of years of libreral gun laws perpetuated by the lobbying of the nra and others, we have made it easy for the psychotic freak bastards that have taken the lives of so many innocents in the last weeks to obtain guns either legally or illegally

I am not blaming the gun but the user. If we had long ago treated the ownership of guns with the same gravity that we treat driving a car, truck, bus, or flying a plane, I am fairly sure we would not be having this conversation right now.

mario