outsider Posted September 27, 2006 Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 i have heard that coyote urine works on deer, would it be safe to assume that the same principle with a bigger animal on the foodchain. As for me, i have an 85 pound german shepard that looks meaner than hell but acts like he's a pup. i have seen coyotes catch his scent and take off in the other direction. while i dont live in a rough area, i would imagine that a mugger might think twice before confronting the small beast walking alongside me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoarderYUL Posted September 27, 2006 Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 Guys, I totally understand your point. Happy to see you have your own good reasons to carry a firearm and can act responsibly with it. Though, I think we should all ask ourselves why carrying a gun is considered "normal" and why the violence has increased so much in the past years. I don'twant to compare Canada and USA, because there are lots of differences and also lots of similarities between both countries, but most of us don't see the necessity to protect ourselves with a gun. If everybody replies to an act of violence with violence, where will be the limit ? More firearms = more chances that a freako will use one to do whatever he wants. On the other hand, we have really strong firearms regulations and it's not perfect either. Just have to look at what happened at Dawson's College 2 weeks ago... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted September 27, 2006 Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 On the other hand, we have really strong firearms regulations and it's not perfect either. Just have to look at what happened at Dawson's College 2 weeks ago... A good example of what we are saying. The whackos will always have guns they don't care about the laws. If one person on that campus had been a legal concealed carry citizen the only dead student would be the whacko one. we have had several instances in the states in school shootings that did not make the news because a teacher stopped it before anyone got killed by running to his vehicle and retrieving his legal handgun. the student with the gun did not even get shot. He saw the teacher with the gun and surrendered crying. taking guns away, or any other right for that matter, from honest law abiding citizens will only embolden criminals and hurt honest law abiding citizens. As I said previously it isnot so important that you do carry its important that you have the right to carry. simple statistics prove the point;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C5 Golfer Posted September 27, 2006 Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 . All of this self protection sounds good on the surface but I wonder if any of the hypothetical cases, like running in to save your daughter actually is feasible. What I mean is that most of us are normal "Joes" going about sitting at our desk designing whatever on our computer or fixing cars for a living. Do you really think you can all the sudden change into this crack shot with nerves of steel and accurately aim at the head of an intruder who is standing next to your family? Law enforcement types are professionally trained, continually in those situations, emotionally trained and by the way emotionally detached from your family members, and these guys do mistakes. Do you think you can do this – really – it is a very big mistake to think you can survive these situations unscathed if the last time you shot your handgun was 5 years ago. Be sure to get the proper training if in fact you are trying to protect more people than “1” in your house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted September 27, 2006 Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 Shooting is a perishable skill if you are going to carry please practice regularly. Its a fun hobby anyway. accuracy and proper safety skills are a must as with anything that might injure or kill you if used improperly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin A. Posted September 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 Dr. D and I posted at the same time. I also couldn't agree more. I realized firsthand just HOW perishable shooting (anything) skills are about a week ago when I picked up my bow, setup my range and started shooting from 90m again. 1 out of 11 arrows on target is not a good percentage Needless to say, I moved up and after alot of hard work I'm back up to 40m again...can't wait to be as good as I was. Anyway, with the purchase of my gun, I am planning on getting a membership to the local range and shoot weekly. Do any of you CCW permit holders have a better suggestion than a Glock 23 for a first time owner? I have been shooting firearms for a long time now and I have a very good sense of safety and such, I've just never had cause or desire to own one before. ________ OM601 ENGINE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Dahl Posted September 27, 2006 Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 A good basic course in defensive gun handling and home tactics would run you $400 or so, assuming you can find a really qualified instructer. Going into one of these it is assumed you can safely handle/shoot your firearm under range conditions, which means for the average guy......about 100-150 rounds per week about twice a month times 12 months. If this is done and you have reasonable eyesight and eye/hand coordination you should also be able to put 3-6 rounds out of a revolver into 6" at 50 yards. I need a scope now, but theoretically 3" @100 yards on a decent day is doable. Practice is the key, time is the commodity needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skategoat Posted September 27, 2006 Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 A good example of what we are saying. The whackos will always have guns they don't care about the laws. If one person on that campus had been a legal concealed carry citizen the only dead student would be the whacko one. I've been trying to stay out of this thread but I have to respond to this. Your analysis of the Dawson College incident borders on the absurd. The police were on the scene within minutes. They responded by shooting and wounding the gunman, the gunman then committed suicide. Before the police could react, the gunman shot and wounded a number of students and killed one. Those are the known facts. Everything else is pure conjecture. If a student or teacher or security guard (our wannabe cops are not armed, thank God) was packing a weapon, what would've happened? Well, as you say, in the best case scenario, he would have stopped the gunman. What else could have happened? Let's see, a) He/she could have triggered a gun battle resulting in a higher body count, b) He/she could have missed the gunman and shot or killed an innocent party, c) He/she would be dead since the gunman was better armed. Any number of these alternatives could have transpired just as easily as your "Die Hard" scenario. Life is not a movie. I for one, am glad the only other armed persons on the scene were trained professionals - ie. law enforcement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C5 Golfer Posted September 27, 2006 Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 Anyway, with the purchase of my gun, I am planning on getting a membership to the local range and shoot weekly. Do any of you CCW permit holders have a better suggestion than a Glock 23 for a first time owner? e. I have my preferences but like anything else these are mine and not necessarily a view that all others will agree. Here goes, in an auto handgun for self defense I want several required options on my piece, first a magazine disconnect from the trigger that is to say if the magazine is out - the gun cannot fire, Second the gun must have a visible hammer, and Third and most of all a friggen safety lever and decocking mechanism. This is the reason I will not and never will own a Glock, they are fine pieces but do not fit my safety list. I have several pieces but a couple of favorites is my Beretta Cougar model 40SW with the above features and a Beretta Cheetah .380 with the above features. I also own a Browning Hi-Power 9mm but since it is single action only and no decocking mechanism I would not use it for self defense. FN just brought out what appears to be a nice auto, but Beretta is my favorite and I have shot most what is out there. The Sigs are ok but do not feel as good as the Beretta both in handling and shooting but we are back to personal choice like stepins or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted September 27, 2006 Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 Dr. D and I posted at the same time. I also couldn't agree more. I realized firsthand just HOW perishable shooting (anything) skills are about a week ago when I picked up my bow, setup my range and started shooting from 90m again. 1 out of 11 arrows on target is not a good percentage Needless to say, I moved up and after alot of hard work I'm back up to 40m again...can't wait to be as good as I was. Anyway, with the purchase of my gun, I am planning on getting a membership to the local range and shoot weekly. Do any of you CCW permit holders have a better suggestion than a Glock 23 for a first time owner? I have been shooting firearms for a long time now and I have a very good sense of safety and such, I've just never had cause or desire to own one before. There are lots of good choices and a glock is probably not at the top of the list. Hi dollar good stuff would be kimber 1911 variants that come in concealable sizes and .45 caliber Ruger stuff is good quality but very affordable. there are several specialty companies that make just cc guns. Its most important that you shoot them all and find what fits you best. glocks are movie favorites but have some disadvantages for concealed carry. all the square edges etc catch on clothing. find a gun that fits and comes in a .45 and then find a good holster. I also use a dayplanner that has a hidden holster in it. Its perfect for those executive moments and ladies they have special purses with holsters in them:ices_ange :ices_ange Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted September 27, 2006 Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 I've been trying to stay out of this thread but I have to respond to this. Your analysis of the Dawson College incident borders on the absurd. The police were on the scene within minutes. They responded by shooting and wounding the gunman, the gunman then committed suicide. Before the police could react, the gunman shot and wounded a number of students and killed one. Those are the known facts. Everything else is pure conjecture.If a student or teacher or security guard (our wannabe cops are not armed, thank God) was packing a weapon, what would've happened? Well, as you say, in the best case scenario, he would have stopped the gunman. What else could have happened? Let's see, a) He/she could have triggered a gun battle resulting in a higher body count, b) He/she could have missed the gunman and shot or killed an innocent party, c) He/she would be dead since the gunman was better armed. Any number of these alternatives could have transpired just as easily as your "Die Hard" scenario. Life is not a movie. I for one, am glad the only other armed persons on the scene were trained professionals - ie. law enforcement. you may have noticed that I advocate training and expertise. What you may not know is that in the USA at least private owners and enthusiasts by in large are much better shots and spend much more time training than the average beat cop. Swat teams and special units of course would be an exception. I admire your police for their quick response however that is seldom the case in most areas. I would never want an untrained person carrying and expecting to make a difference for the positive. I would however match my shooting skills with any law inforcement officer. The FBI doesn't even have that great a history as far as shooters. I would much rather be shooting the guy holding my wife than letting some local joe cop do it. The DEA is perhaps the one exception to the rule they have immpecable marksmen and actually train the secret service presidential details. Gun people are just as avid about shooting as bomberonline people are about alpine snowboarding. suggesting that a concealed carry holder is probably untrained is a lot like saying jack michaud probably can't carve since he's the moderator of this site. ridiculous:freak3: :freak3: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoarderYUL Posted September 27, 2006 Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 Anyways.... all opinions have good and bad points... I know a lot of you here on BOL Forum come from Colorado.... Same old story is repeating again.... All my thoughts are with those of you who know students at Bailey's High School. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skategoat Posted September 27, 2006 Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 you may have noticed that I advocate training and expertise. What you may not know is that in the USA at least private owners and enthusiasts by in large are much better shots and spend much more time training than the average beat cop. Swat teams and special units of course would be an exception. I admire your police for their quick response however that is seldom the case in most areas. I would never want an untrained person carrying and expecting to make a difference for the positive. I would however match my shooting skills with any law inforcement officer. The FBI doesn't even have that great a history as far as shooters. I would much rather be shooting the guy holding my wife than letting some local joe cop do it. The DEA is perhaps the one exception to the rule they have immpecable marksmen and actually train the secret service presidential details. Gun people are just as avid about shooting as bomberonline people are about alpine snowboarding. suggesting that a concealed carry holder is probably untrained is a lot like saying jack michaud probably can't carve since he's the moderator of this site. ridiculous:freak3: :freak3: D: You may be a great marksman but you are not trained to perform or make life and death choices in tense, potentially violent situations. Sorry but I would rather take my chances with an average joe cop than average joe chiropractor. :) HK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C5 Golfer Posted September 27, 2006 Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 D:You may be a great marksman but you are not trained to perform or make life and death choices in tense, potentially violent situations. Sorry but I would rather take my chances with an average joe cop than average joe chiropractor. :) HK Plus I would rather take my chance with someone not emotionally attached to the situation. Clearer head may result in a correct outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishrising Posted September 27, 2006 Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 We all have the right to keep and bear arms, well except convicted felons and a few others.....in my case, I do. To each his own. The coolest, most level headed person in a confrontational situation I bet would be the person who is legally carrying a firearm. That person has to know what it means to carry and what the ramifications are if that weapon is drawn, let alone if it is used. The last thing they would want to do is draw their weapon, well actually use it, but drawing implies usage. I do carry a concealed weapon at times. I have ended up in confrontations with others when I was carrying concealed. I have taken a punch while carrying concealed. I have never drawn my gun while carrying it concealed, and pray that I never have to. I punched back in the above situation and ended it right then and there. When the officers came momements later I immediiately told them that I was carrying. The crowd freaked, we went through the whole disarm process, and then the officers applauded me in front of the crowd for not using it. Not sure what I was getting at in the above, but I felt I had to add something to this thread... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin A. Posted September 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 We all have the right to keep and bear arms, well except convicted felons and a few others.....in my case, I do. To each his own.The coolest, most level headed person in a confrontational situation I bet would be the person who is legally carrying a firearm. That person has to know what it means to carry and what the ramifications are if that weapon is drawn, let alone if it is used. The last thing they would want to do is draw their weapon, well actually use it, but drawing implies usage. I do carry a concealed weapon at times. I have ended up in confrontations with others when I was carrying concealed. I have taken a punch while carrying concealed. I have never drawn my gun while carrying it concealed, and pray that I never have to. I punched back in the above situation and ended it right then and there. When the officers came momements later I immediiately told them that I was carrying. The crowd freaked, we went through the whole disarm process, and then the officers applauded me in front of the crowd for not using it. Not sure what I was getting at in the above, but I felt I had to add something to this thread... I too have to give you major props for not drawing in a situation like that. I totally agree that person who is packing will be the most level headed in a confrontation. I have carried a knife of one form or another most of my life, and though the last thing that I think of it is as a weapon, it's nice to know that it's there if it does need to be used as such. ________ Vapir air one vaporizer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted September 27, 2006 Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 D:You may be a great marksman but you are not trained to perform or make life and death choices in tense, potentially violent situations. Sorry but I would rather take my chances with an average joe cop than average joe chiropractor. :) HK Actually I am a veteran with 2 yrs active duty and 11 more reserve. I have shot competitively with just as much enjoyment and passion as I have for carving. but the best experience is life. I also applaud the discretion used when carrying concealed. Its a great responsibility that some I suppose are not well suited for. I would again point out that less than three percent actually get licensed and carry on average. It is those three percent that grant a benefit to everyone else. The bad guys don't know if you are carrying or not. I would also note that everyoneI know that is a licensed carrier has some experience whether military or law enforcement or active shooter. Many of the shooting sports are ideal training ground for law enforcement. from cowboy action shooting to cqb contests the premise is quick reaction and decision making. Do I shoot or don't I. I worked security for 5 years in bars and nite clubs while in graduate school and I can honestly say that I never punched anyone. I subdued lots of people and often used only conversational english to do it. I was always armed in one way or another whether it be a knife or a makeshift club gof ball in a sock etc. never had to use it. Just like the above example carrying concealed doesn't mean you pull it out every chance you get. Its not a badge of honor or respect its an insurance policy you hope you don't have to use. the right to carry is the important thing whether or not you exercise it is up to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skategoat Posted September 28, 2006 Report Share Posted September 28, 2006 I've watched a lot of cop movies and once met the guy who plays Andy Sipowitz on NYPD: Blue. That makes me marginally less qualified to intervene in a hostage taking incident as serving in the armed forces and having been a bouncer. Thank you very much but I'll take the wet-behind-the-years rookie cop over the grey-over-the-temples chiropractor. ;) BTW, I'm not coming to SES or ECES unless someone promises me there'll be a metal detector at the door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishrising Posted September 28, 2006 Report Share Posted September 28, 2006 ...I have ended up in confrontations with others when I was carrying concealed... For the record, I was never the instigator, in any way shape or form...simply in the wrong place at the wrong time, and just plain dumb luck... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin A. Posted September 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2006 I've watched a lot of cop movies and once met the guy who plays Andy Sipowitz on NYPD: Blue. That makes me marginally less qualified to intervene in a hostage taking incident as serving in the armed forces and having been a bouncer. Thank you very much but I'll take the wet-behind-the-years rookie cop over the grey-over-the-temples chiropractor. ;)BTW, I'm not coming to SES or ECES unless someone promises me there'll be a metal detector at the door. Are you kidding? ________ Buy Vapir Oxygen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy T. Posted September 28, 2006 Report Share Posted September 28, 2006 Here's a good one for those that like to shoot. A range near where i live has an event this weekend where you can pay to shoot all kinds of weapons like belt fed machine guns, grenada launchers, .50 cals with exploding targets, flame throwers, and you can even learn to drive an armored vehicle. Check out the video on the web site. www.mustangrange.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willywhit Posted September 28, 2006 Report Share Posted September 28, 2006 you mean "musk" ? http://www.coyoteuglysaloon.com/den...ry11/index.html hunting down some old coyote foxes up in Aspen sounds like a good time "I developed my business plan here and that has propelled me to where I am today: beautiful girls + booze = money." BRILLIANT !!!! Brian Fantana: [about Veronica] I'll give this little cookie an hour before we're doing the no-pants dance. Time to musk up. [opens cologne cabinet] Ron Burgundy: Wow. Never ceases to amaze me. What cologne you gonna go with? London Gentleman, or wait. No, no, no. Hold on. Blackbeard's Delight. Brian Fantana: No, she gets a special cologne... It's called Sex Panther by Odeon. It's illegal in nine countries... Yep, it's made with bits of real panther, so you know it's good. Ron Burgundy: It's quite pungent. Brian Fantana: Oh yeah. Ron Burgundy: It's a formidable scent... It stings the nostrils. In a good way. Brian Fantana: Yep. Ron Burgundy: Brian, I'm gonna be honest with you, that smells like pure gasoline. Brian Fantana: They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time, it works every time. [cheesy grin] Ron Burgundy: That doesn't make sense. Brian Fantana: Well... Let's go see is we can make this little kitty purr. [snarls] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobD Posted September 28, 2006 Report Share Posted September 28, 2006 So I'll reply here. There's been a lot of talk about being a responsible citizen in these treads, so I don't understand the arguments against gun registration. If guns get into the wrong hands, it should be possible to hold someone accountable. But no one in the gun lobby wants to take any responsibility. It's like the arguments againts traffic offence cameras. That the camera can't show who was driving. If someone is driving your vehicle or one you used to own, you had better know who it is. If some one is using your gun or one you used to own, you can abdicate responsibility. Maybe it's an argument to get rid of vehicle registration. BobD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C5 Golfer Posted September 28, 2006 Report Share Posted September 28, 2006 So I'll reply here. There's been a lot of talk about being a responsible citizen in these treads, so I don't understand the arguments against gun registration. If guns get into the wrong hands, it should be possible to hold someone accountable. But no one in the gun lobby wants to take any responsibility. It's like the arguments againts traffic offence cameras. That the camera can't show who was driving. If someone is driving your vehicle or one you used to own, you had better know who it is. If some one is using your gun or one you used to own, you can abdicate responsibility. Maybe it's an argument to get rid of vehicle registration. BobD First thought comes to mind it is a paper work nightmare if you are talking about registering every gun. (Or are you thinking more smartly and asking to register a gun owner with a license, similar to a driver’s license which could be just an added item to your driver’s license like a motorcycle) But back to what I believe you are asking. Some owners have 50 firearms; some of those are traded/ sold on a weekly basis. Plus and god forbid -- your social security number of course goes with each transaction and trade and register. Where do you think the money will come to manage this huge undertaking? Don't even think about having it self fund it self -- we are talking government here. Second -- give me any example of any crime recently that would have been prevented if the gun had been registered. My final thought if you want to control responsibility and accountability -- they already have technology to do this, just add biometrics to each gun sold, that is only the owner can fire it. Why not simply enforce the billions of laws we have already on the books and send the criminals to prison. Here in Washington State we have a laws that add years to a perps sentence if he uses a gun during the crime, yes can you believe it a law that actually makes sense, but it is never enforced even thought the law states X years added for 1st offense and X years added for 2nd offense. They plea bargain with it to a lower sentence and they are out on the street committing the same crime, sometimes with in the same year. I am for a license to use and own a gun just like an Automobile, They are both dangerous, odd that we train and test for the use of an automobile but not a gun. Training, training and continual training and test just like a drivers license should be required to own a gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted September 28, 2006 Report Share Posted September 28, 2006 I've watched a lot of cop movies and once met the guy who plays Andy Sipowitz on NYPD: Blue. That makes me marginally less qualified to intervene in a hostage taking incident as serving in the armed forces and having been a bouncer. Thank you very much but I'll take the wet-behind-the-years rookie cop over the grey-over-the-temples chiropractor. ;)BTW, I'm not coming to SES or ECES unless someone promises me there'll be a metal detector at the door. Hey THere is no need to get nasty I am 34 years old and have, for the record, only 3-4 gray hairs. If you can't be civil don't play:eplus2: As previously stated its a personal choice! After spending 4 years in south carolina and viewing first hand the quality of the average law enforcement officer in spartanburg county, I quiver at the thought of giving them the responsibility of anything more than finding there way home at nite. God forbid they have to pull their weapons. I will stick to the demons I know rather than trusting the ones I don't know thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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