Chiropractors

[ncermak]

do you trust them?

I have heard of cases Chiros making a problem worse, and people requiring regular visits to the the Chiro, which imply that they are fixing symptom, but not the problem...

they aren't doctors, so I'm not sure whta to think...

your thoughts?

[ncermak]

do you trust them?

I have heard of cases Chiros making a problem worse, and people requiring regular visits to the the Chiro, which imply that they are fixing symptom, but not the problem...

they aren't doctors, so I'm not sure whta to think...

your thoughts?

(Skatha - definitely interested in your thoughts as the site Doctor)

[Steve Dold]

I don't know how to answer the poll. I've never needed one and don't know anything about them. I guess I'd go if my doctor recommended one. I bet a lot of us are in that category.

[bumpyride]

Had a bad one a couple of years back. Was in tough enough shape to not be able to work or do much of anything. Went to a Chiro on rcommendation, and on the 2nd visit after asking him point blank, he said, "Not much I can do for you." Well he was honest about it after asking, but I was being scheduled for another appointment--FOR WHAT?.

Talked to my WTB who's the Microbiology Head at a large hospital, and she asked her co-workers about what to do. This started a whole buzz in the group. Most have had a bad back, and almost all of them said "Find an Old Asian Doc that had been doing it for years". These were all people in Mainstream Medicine, and all of them had their backs fixed, only after exhausting all the usuals and going to the Acupuncturist.

I was down for 2 1/2 months. The 1st visit, I felt way better. The 2nd visit I was up and around and back to doing things. I went for a 3rd visit, just a follow-up and I've been perfect ever since, 3 years.

I would go to the Acupuncturist first thing before I tried anything else.

Fischer

[tex1230]

Probably biased due to several MD's in the family, but I have never been to one and never will...

Had a chiro tell me he could cure my asthma (pretty bad, had it all my life, well controlled by meds) and it didn't make much sense...how does spinal adjustment stop an allergic reaction and swelling of lung tissue?

I am a big believer in accupuncture, though - had lower back problems for a few years in college after a major wreck off a big cliff (backslap a 50+ footer off Donner summit in less powder than I thought) and couldn't deal with the muscle relaxants and pain killers, so a girlfriend reccomended her neighbor, an old chinese guy, and he got rid of the back pain in about a month of visits.

[trailertrash]

i went to one for a snowboarding injury i still have. it seems that no matter what i went in and said was hurting they would crack my back and neck. "hey doc, my knee hurts, .... snap!" i think they can work for a narrow set of problems.

[skatha]

I have often referred to chiros-usually for intractable lower back pain.

For neck pain, I'm more cautious....there have been SEVERAL well-documented reports of vertebral artery dissection following neck manipulation that resulted in strokes, including ones that have resulted in blindness.

Obviously, the claims that I've heard that chiro can "cure" asthma, diabetes, etc. are completely unfounded....

Also, credentials for D.C.'s(Doctor of Chiropractic) vary from state to state. I can move from state to state and only have to pass a state licensing exam, because medical schools are accredited by a federal agency and there's a proven and approved curriculum.

My board certification exam-the ABIM exam-is nationwide and I am a board certified internist wherever I go...

In TX,to go to chiropratic school, one only has to be a high school graduate.

It probably is a more strenuous careerpath in other states, but there's no federal oversight like the MD/DO (Doctor of Osteopathy) programs...

Anyway, for problems like backs, I often refer to chiropratic. Most people experience back pain sometime in their life and, in most, it goes away without any specific treatment. Of those with chronic pain, some are caused by herniated discs but a significant percentage are not-the dreaded mechanical back pain. I can throw anti-inflammatories and pain pills at these people all day, but most want some definitive relief. Chiropractic is just as effective as physical therapy and this has been documented in research....

FYI, there are plenty of people walking around painfree with herniated discs in their back. A survey of the general population shows that 60% have abnormal lumbar MRIs. Also, if you do have pain and a herniated disc, surgery may not be the way to go-only 30-40% of patients who have surgery recognize some benefit to the surgery and a fair percentage consider themselves worse off after.

How can you avoid the trap of back pain-stay thin and keep your abs toned. The main support of your back is your abdominal muscles..

Just my $0.02

[trikerdad]

My right knee used to go numb so I tried a chiropractor for it. He cracked my back and I'd be good for up to maybe 6 months. Then on one of my visits he talked me in to cracking my neck, said I didn't have much range of motion. Well, ever since then my neck makes crunching sounds when I move it. As for my knee going numb, I found that it was caused by my wallet and where it put preasure on my butt!

[Jon Dahl]

I've used a chiropractor for two different neck injuries, both work related. Skatha's comments on exercise are spot on, muscle tone goes a long ways on lower back pain. Go to a activater practicioner, they use little to none of the "cracking" techniques. Mine is college grad, total of 7 years of school before going into practice. As a side note, he was also Craig Kelly's chiropractor while Craig was big in the comp stage of his career.

[Sinecure]

As for my knee going numb, I found that it was caused by my wallet and where it put preasure on my butt!

Clearly you have too much money. :p

I've used Chiros occasionally and have had good success. They usually want you to keep coming back, but a few visits usually sorts out my back problems. I had en experience a few years ago where I could barely get out of bed one Monday morning (after a SB crash that weekend). On Tuesday I went to the Chiro and I was walking fine by that afternoon. Usually the changes aren't that dramatic, but I think they are great. I'd certainly try chiropractic before having back surgery. I've known of a few people who had back surgery recommended by a doctor, went to chiro, and were fine after that.

[chadx]

I never used to believe in them. I had friends that tried to get me to use them. After a back injury about 15 years ago, in the Air Force, I tried one on base. He was horrible (but then, I was at the Base hospital which tended to have care that was not on par with off-base care). Then, a few years later, my back went out again. This time I went to the chiro of my girlfriend at the time. What an experience! He had fixed in no time. Proves that you have to find someone that is not only skilled, but that is a good fit for you. There are many different chiro styles and philosophies.

For a few years, I was in "use him when I needed him" mode, I finally realized that maintenance was the answer. It kept me feeling good all the time and not just "I can live with the discomfort". Some months I'd see him two or three times, but usually it was only once every 4 to 6 weeks. I credit that maintenance with keeping my back from going out or being more problematic over the following 10 years. Then I moved to Chicago. I didn't see a chiro for two years. I finally decided to find one because I couldn't take it anymore. She is not quite as good as my St. Louis chiro, but still makes a huge difference. After seeing her once a week for a month, she had me all fixed up. Now I only go every 3 to 5 weeks for maintenance. When I wait longer, everyting starts feeling crummy. Yes I work out and am very good shape.

A lot of this is the fault of my job. I sit at a desk behind a computer all day with few breaks so it takes it's toll even with my desk, chair, and computer adjusted to the 'proper' levels. And then there is the motocross riding, wakeboarding (and associated crashes learning new moves), snowboarding, etc. My shoulder was acting up for the last 6 months. I hadn't gone to the chiro for 4 months. She also does accupuncture so she did her usual adjustment to my back and accupuncture to my shoulder. UNBELEIVABLE. Now I can say I'm a beleiver in that as well.

By the way, why is this in the carving forum rather than the off topic? Is there any way to move it?

[Pow]

my friend's dad is the local chiropracter... kinda wierd and awkward. too young to have a need for them anyway, but in the future i dont plan on ever turning to one for ache/pain relief.

[Gleb]

How can you avoid the trap of back pain-stay thin and keep your abs toned. The main support of your back is your abdominal muscles..

Just my $0.02

and that is exactly what i did. I used to play football and i developed an aweful back. A few times i blew it out so bad i couldn't walk. So i started wrestling which got me to work out and be thin as well as tone my stomach, WALAH! the pain is gone.

It came back in my senior year the final week of wrestling but that is because i didn't go to a chiropractor after a few tough matches in a short time period. Live and learn. Ive been to two types of chiropractors, one that uses his hands and another that uses this little tool that they hold and it delivers a slight shock (non electrical) to the spot. The one that used his hands seemed more effective but it was two totally different types of back pains so i'm not one to judge.

I'll go to one when i need it.

[ncermak]

As for my knee going numb, I found that it was caused by my wallet and where it put preasure on my butt!

yu can make the wallet smaller by sending me all of the cash...that'll help your knee!

[ncermak]

By the way, why is this in the carving forum rather than the off topic? Is there any way to move it?

It is in the carving community forum...I wanted the community's thoughts. Why are peoples injuries in this forum. perhaps a medical forum is needed.

[bobdea]

she claims that some are good but many do more damage than good

she helped develope prostetic limbs and stuff so she probably knows what she is talking about

[Dr D]

I have often referred to chiros-usually for intractable lower back pain.

For neck pain, I'm more cautious....there have been SEVERAL well-documented reports of vertebral artery dissection following neck manipulation that resulted in strokes, including ones that have resulted in blindness.

Also, credentials for D.C.'s(Doctor of Chiropractic) vary from state to state. I can move from state to state and only have to pass a state licensing exam, because medical schools are accredited by a federal agency and there's a proven and approved curriculum.

My board certification exam-the ABIM exam-is nationwide and I am a board certified internist wherever I go...

In TX,to go to chiropratic school, one only has to be a high school graduate.

It probably is a more strenuous careerpath in other states, but there's no federal oversight like the MD/DO (Doctor of Osteopathy) programs...

I guess I should clear up a few misconceptions since I am the resident chiropractor.

the only documented major risk factor for chiropractic is stroke occurring after a rotational adjustment of the cervical spine. that being said the gross majority of the documented cases were manipulation performed by someone other than a chiropractor. That would be spouse, barber, orthopedist etc.

It is also important to note that while fewer than 2-3 cases of stroke a year are attributed to cervical manipulation (not necessarily by a chiropractor) over 1500 people die each year from tylenol. so like anything else you really need to compare apples to apples. chiropractic is statistically much safer than any of the alternatives out there.

You can further reduce your risk by choosing techniques that don't involve rotation. Activator or Gonstead would be good choices and Diversified would be the one with the most rotation.

Chiropractors nationwide are required to have a minimum core group of hard science credits before entering chiropractic school. no state including texas allows them to enter straight from highschool. currently florida is the only state that requires the Bachelor's degreeto be completed before starting graduate school. Almost all states require that one be completed before licensing.

required credits are

the usual freshman year fluff english etc.

2 semesters each of

chemistry

chemistry lab

Organic chem

org chem lab

Biology

biology lab

physics

physics lab

psychology

Licensing is a four part national board test with some states requiring an additional physical therapy board.

chiropractic school itself is nationally accredited graaduate level work totalling 3 and a half years straight through with no breaks longer than two weeks. totalling over 30 credit hours per semesters in the early years. compared side by side with a general practioner MD curriculum very little is different. no pharmacology or surgery classes. these would be replaced by technique classes. there is actually more chemistry and much more nutrtion. Chiropractors are trained as gateway physicians.

that is to say that they are required to diagnose and treat or refer to a specialist just as an Md would be.

Research dollars are hard to get so fewer research projects have been done. there is however lots of research done in the medical field that supports chiropractic.

Chiropractic is based not on bones but on the nervous system. It simply states that the body is controlled by the brain through the pathways of the nervous system. Chiropractors look for musculo-skeletal problems that might create pressure on the nerves interfering with that communication. An adjustment is given to remove the interference.

more later I have patients now

[Dr D]

[quote name=As for my knee going numb, I found that it was caused by my wallet and where it put preasure on my butt! [/quote]

There is in fact a Diagnosis for that now. Its called wallet sciatica.

there are special wallets made for those who suffer from it that can be worn in the front pocket. a decent chiro would know the difference.

[chadx]

Thanks for the thorough reply Dr D.

Regarding the wallet sciatica (named, I assume, because it's the sciatic nerve involved), I stopped carrying a wallet in my rear pocket about 8 years ago when I realized how much it twisted my lower back. Yes, even 3/4 inch isn't good for your spine when it's a sustained, ongoing thing, especially when you have a touchy lower back. Pressure on your sciatic nerve is a big no no, too.

http://www.spine-health.com/topics/cd/sciatica/sciatic_nerve01.html

Now I only carry a money clip with my license and one or two other cards in my front pocket. It keeps me from being tempted to put all kinds of things in my wallet that I don't need (others business cards, receipts, etc.) The less junk I carry around, the better. Anyone ever see the Seinfeld episode with the George's big wallet?

[Dr D]

Clearly you have too much money. :p

I've used Chiros occasionally and have had good success. They usually want you to keep coming back, but a few visits usually sorts out my back problems. I'd certainly try chiropractic before having back surgery. I've known of a few people who had back surgery recommended by a doctor, went to chiro, and were fine after that.

as for the keep you coming back myth.

Just like a physical therapist or any other practioner with a care plan, you have to complete the care plan to get good LASTING results. the biggest mistake people make is assuming that the problem is gone when the pain is gone.

you are dealing with muscles and ligaments that have either been freshly traumatized or were in the past and have now "healed" poorly and out of position. you also have damaged proprioceptors that need to be programmed or trained. healing takes time and pain is a poor indicator. those of you who have used a chiro for pain in the past may have noticed that the same pains recur at a later date. This is because the injury was never rehabilitated it was simply treated until the pain resolved. you can by following a good care plan completely stabilize old problems so the recurrence problem is never an issue. the other thing to note is that pain signals are not the only signals carried by the nerves. If it hurts what else is being affected? is the athlete who drops dead of a heart attack "healthy" because he is fit and has no pain?

He is still dead of a heart attack the next day yet most would say that he was healthy. Pain is a poor indicator.

Chiropractic does not cure anything.

It simply removes interference so that the body can function to its maximum potential. many health issues resolve because of this but its the body doing the healing.

Common "anecdotal" evidence that chiropractic works

ear infections clear almost immediately

colic in babies clears immediately in almost every case

asthma in children clears up within months

ADD/ ADHD clears up with the addition of dietary changes

of course back pain and headaches

most cases of peripheral pains arms legs etc

digestive problems

chemistry problems

blood pressure

and on and on

the blood pressure thing is so prevelant that I screen my patients for those on meds and warn them to have their MD check the dosage because often the combination of adjustment and meds brings it to low. they either get the dosage lowered or no longer require the meds.

I would love to see research projects done on all of this and more but the money isn't there. So for me the results I see repeated over and over in my office are proof enough.

as for children and chiropractic

birth trauma is the first time the spine is damaged and its present in a majority of assisted births. Think about it. the first thing that happens when the head crowns is that someone ether with hands or with various tools ,grabs the head and turns it ninety degrees and pulls hard.

babies almost all that I have seen have a subluxation at the first cervical vertabra. the brain stem is located there. Its an important injury that recieves little attention. baby adjustments are very low force and very easy. the results are babies who sleep longer and have fewer problems in the first year. Most of the older kids I see that problem is still there because no one treated it early. I have three children al of them slept through the nite at least six hours and never had infections, colic, or any of the common childhood diseases to speak of.

Its a wellness lifestyle choice or a muscluloskeletal rehab choice and its drug and surgery free.

Next time you take a drug really read the two pages of side effects, and interactions and then decide if you really want them in your body when there are alternatives to try first!

[Dr D]

Ask questions

ask people you know for their experience at various chiros

most techniques have websites with refferal directories

most chiropractic schools have info online

Check out activator.com

gonstead.com

gonsteadseminar.com

interview the doctor

He should take xrays believe me you want to know whats going on in there

cavitating a joint releases endorphin which feels good

so even a crappy chiro feels good initially

find out if there is a plan to eliminate the 2-3 subluxations that you have.

you shouldn't be racked and cracked up one side and down the other

you should have specific adjustments given to only the few bones that are a problem for you usuallly 2-3 max

common trx plans would be 3 times a week for 4-16 weeks depending on age fitness and degenerative changes in the spine. Old fat guys take lots longer to fix than young fit guys. so stay in shape.

you would typically have once a week trx following that to stabilize the soft tissue and allow for healing. maintainance just like getting your teeth cleaned is a good idea after that. usually once a month.

If he says come back when it hurts he's not doing anything that will help you long term.

In fact you will spend more time and money on relapses than just sticking with the plan and getting it fixed in the first place.

Wellness visits are checkups that may or may not require adjustment and are often once a week and cheaper priced. new research shows that degeneration starts in the spine within two weeks of injury. How many two weeks would you like to let that happen? thus the wellness visit.

a doctor who uses primarily one technique is probably better than the guy who advertises 6 different ones. jack of all trades master of none kinda thing.

most have been trained in 5 to six techniques at school. If they use only one they have almost always completed extensive post graduate instruction and continuing education credits specifically for that technique. think of them as a specialist. they will usually be better adjustors.

If you have been in a trauma you will need therapy as well. It works the best if your spine is moving freely first so expect to wait for several weeks before its appropriate. some will refer you to a PT some will do it in house.

by all means use the other natural arts. acupuncture is great for pain and it won't kill your liver or kidneys. massage is useful for many things and is a great adjunctive therapy. natural practitioners used together magnifies the results. used seperately they are less effective. Its silly to fix the muscles if the nerve controlling it is going to continue to cause it to spasm. but fix the nerve and the muscle and you have a winner.

I can go on forever so I'll shut up now. any questions do't hesitate to ask.

[tex1230]

D - can you explain the logic behind spinal adjustment as a treatment for asthma? Having had it all my life and studied quite a bit about the disease, I've always been baffled by this claim...

Asthma is basically a combination of swelling of lung tissue and an overactive immune response/allergy. I can sort of see how you could decrease the swelling by improving blood flow, but the other part completely escapes me.

[Jon Dahl]

I'll second Dr.D's statement about pain not being a good indicator. First times I went in mine said that most people who came in with their backs like mine came in bent over in pain. I've always had a high pain threshold. Remember once at the dentist the pain stuff was just starting to wear off and he was almost finished, he gave me the choice and I went with go for it w/o anything else. Mind over matter was the mantra when I was younger!

[Dr D]

D - can you explain the logic behind spinal adjustment as a treatment for asthma? Having had it all my life and studied quite a bit about the disease, I've always been baffled by this claim...

Asthma is basically a combination of swelling of lung tissue and an overactive immune response/allergy. I can sort of see how you could decrease the swelling by improving blood flow, but the other part completely escapes me.

once again chiropractic doesn't cure anything. It just allows the body to work the way its supposed to.

Many of the diseases we labor through life with are really just things that the body has lost its ability to adapt to. Adaptation is the key to life in a way.

In this case the best explanation for how it helps would be nerve tone or balance. you have two nervous systems the sympathetic and the para sympathetic. one acts like the gas pedal and the other like the brakes. when you are sleeping the parasympathetic is stronger and when you are awake the sympathetic is stronger. the sympathetic isresponsible for fight or flight and concious activity like muscle movements etc. the parasympathetic controls digestion and heartrate and the "unconcious stuff". your lungs would be parasympathetic. various drugs affect the nervous system in one system or the other. uppers or stimulants stimulate the sympathetic and teh opposite is true for downers and deppressants. most lung related medications stimulate the sympathetic nervous system similiar to a fight or flight reaction. this opens the airways. Chiropractic would find interference to the nervous system at c1 or lower down at the c7 -t1 area where direct control of the lungs happens. the body is not really wired directly to the plan but this is a general idea. wherever the balance is interfered with the problem can come from. I find that those kinds of symptoms resolve as the care plan progresses

I don't set out to treat asthma I simply find and remove interference and let the body rebalance itself and begin to function normally again. depending on how long the damage has been there and the physical status of the patient the care plans vary significantly. there are patients who will never resolve because of serious damage that has been in place for to long. I higly recomend every one get checked by a competent chiro before such a problem arises. the key to health is being proactive instead of reactive and taking personal responsibility for your body. nobody else has to live in it for the next 80 years but you.

Bottom line tex is that the nervous system controls everything else and when the control is to much or to little the balance is lost and things like airway size and mucous production and hormone regulation stop functioning in a balanced way you have a problem. when the control is restored the body can rebalance itself.

[rwmaron]

My experience is similar to that of Chadx above - it took me a while to find the right guy and a bit longer to get smart enough to get on the maintenance plan, but the bottom line is this: I can now avoid the kinds of injury/discomfort that (at one time) limited my ability to do the sports activities that I love.