Outward cant on front binding?

[1xsculler]

I have about 6° of toe lift on my front foot and about 2° of outward (towards the nose of the board) cant. Do any of you ride with similar outward cant?  I can’t remember why I set my bindings up this way...maybe I shouldn’t have. 

[Carvin' Marvin]

Yes. You can reference Beckmann’s set up guide. It works for some people. Some people hate it. Do whatever feels right man. http://beckmannag.com/hardboot-snowboarding/hardboot-binding-configuration/8cant-front-foot

[JRAZZ]

For me an outward cant on the front binding (and back binding too) makes the difference between an unrideable board and something that works.

I agree with @Beckmann AG's approach of figuring out the front foot and then the back. Seemed to work for me.

[AcousticBoarder]

I re-evaluated mine after my first day this season when it didn't feel right/made me uncomfortable and could not stand without being tensed and some leg shaking. After I got rid of it I have been better off in a more forward stance. Everyone is different though, so whatever keeps you in a relaxed posture imo. 

Edited February 17, 2019 by AcousticBoarder
Clarifying possibly confusing wording

[billyt.]

Always go back to your default setting!  That’s how it starts, reading some stuff on the forum and you start to mess with settings, and it gets you all confused.  Happens to me.  Just wait for perfect carving conditions and go ride, then you will like your settings!

[SunSurfer]

The whole aim of lift/cant, or using flexibly set bail bindings that allow your boots to move in the bindings, is to achieve alignment of your legs that allow you to effectively and comfortably ride your board. 

Hard boots are "hard", so that changing the angles underfoot will alter the alignment of your lower leg up to the knee. Adjusting the boot cuff canting, that is the angle of the cuff relative to the foot shell does the same thing.

Everybody's body shape is different, so that someone saying that outward cant on their front binding worked for them, without understanding all the other variables around stance distance, binding angles, boot cuff alignment, doesn't mean it will help someone/everyone else.

Comfort and function are the goal. I've gone through Erik Beckmann's approach in the past to my benefit.

I recently developed an alternative approach which can be found by searching YouTube for "binding angle secant curve". 

[pauleleven]

I ride a scarily similar setting to @SunSurfer at 60 60 48cm, only toe and heel no cants.

I would say, from personal experience, that outward canting is not needed until front is ~65,

I have found no need for back can't as well, because I don't ride with a plate bad my knees come together a bit when the board is bent.

But yeah, one of the best things you could do is adjust bootcant first, then do the angles, whatever is comfortable always works best.

Also, on faster boards I ride my front foot with more forward lean, which puts my front knee out of the centre when referencing Beckman's fitting guide, but it helps me stay ahead of the board.

[Beckmann AG]

18 hours ago, AcousticBoarder said:

and could not stand without tense shaking.

Interesting data point.

Did you gradually reduce/evaluate on the way back to zero, or did you go directly to zero?

Further, did you then try going slightly past zero to inward? 

As a side note, are your footbeds posted medially, laterally, or not at all?

(Might have asked in the past, but it could have been someone else).

10 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

Hard boots are "hard", so that changing the angles underfoot will alter the alignment of your lower leg up to the knee. Adjusting the boot cuff canting, that is the angle of the cuff relative to the foot shell does the same thing.

Cuff alignment ensures the foot is not twisted in the boot when the boot is properly buckled (in the non weight bearing context), on account of lower leg variation .

Under boot canting restores/affects ankle mobility that can be compromised by the boot shell and the intersection of the other joints in the stack when that limb is bearing weight.

While they can appear to be the same thing from the geometric perspective, they are not at all the same thing in practice. Further, one can affect the other, while the evaluation of both are generally affected by foot support (or lack thereof).

 

12 hours ago, billyt. said:

That’s how it starts, reading some stuff on the forum and you start to mess with settings, and it gets you all confused.  Happens to me.

You're supposed to be reading from Confucius, not 'Confused Us'.

Edited February 17, 2019 by Beckmann AG

[AcousticBoarder]

4 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

Interesting data point.

Did you gradually reduce/evaluate on the way back to zero, or did you go directly to zero?

Further, did you then try going slightly past zero to inward? 

As a side note, are your footbeds posted medially, laterally, or not at all?

(Might have asked in the past, but it could have been someone else).

So that should read "without being tensed and some leg shaking" not to be confused with intense shaking.

I looked at it on the carpet after reading up on the relaxed riding thread because of how difficult  and uncomfortable, even painful, the first day this season was. My basic first approach once I tried carpet carving and realized how tense I was, was to put my boots on and stand approximately in the stance and facing forward, then to get low and analyze how the boots were roughly canted. 

I then made gradual changes to 0 or just lift, and then went to a bit inward canting.

If I am following the question correctly then my footbeds are not posted either way/ they are flat to my knowledge. 

Side note, my front boot cuff alignment is slightly outward based on the test (I think last season) of buckling the boot in the binding and standing with the footbeds but no liner and adjusting so that leg is centered in the cuff. I also remember last season before this adjustment remarking how on heel edge my front leg would pressure the side of the boot before my rear leg would. 

Now that I have some basis again this season I may be double checking in more detail these adjustments, though I know I am atleast close as I comfortably survived MCC this week with little discomfort. 

[SunSurfer]

@Beckmann AG Thanks for the much more accurate and detailed explanation above of the distinction between boot cuff and boot sole/binding canting.

[Beckmann AG]

On 2/17/2019 at 2:19 AM, AcousticBoarder said:

I then made gradual changes to 0 or just lift, and then went to a bit inward canting.

If I am following the question correctly then my footbeds are not posted either way/ they are flat to my knowledge. 

Good move.

Can you take a few photos of the underside and both medial and lateral aspects of your footbeds? Curious as to what you have, and how they're constructed. 

 

Alan,

You're welcome. Glad to hear your riding is improving with new discoveries.

(Also wondering what you have under your feet).

[SunSurfer]

Using Specialized Body Geometry cycle shoe insoles chosen to support my relatively high arched feet, trimmed so that the arch is supported, the insole doesn't protrude beyond the foot silhouette, and the insole fits inside my Intuition Pro Wrap heat moulded liners.

Specialized make 3 different Body Geometry insoles to suit different arch heights.

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/body-geometry-sl-footbeds/p/130590

Edited February 19, 2019 by SunSurfer

[daveo]

@SunSurfer any reason you didn't just get custom footbeds made? 

[SunSurfer]

I was using already the Specialized insoles in my cycling shoes and, as far as I could tell, they were providing effective support. They were available and a fraction of the cost of getting a custom insole set made.

[daveo]

Interesting. My custom footbeds are one of the most important pieces of gear. Maybe the most important. 

Edited February 19, 2019 by daveo

[Colozeus]

7 hours ago, daveo said:

Interesting. My custom footbeds are one of the most important pieces of gear. Maybe the most important. 

ditto, i had a guy in aspen come to my hotel room and 3d scan my feet. Footbeds were 3d printed and also made to account for my flat feet and over pronation. Best money i ever spent. All foot pains were eliminated. 

[Beckmann AG]

Mör canting detail:

http://beckmannag.com/alpine-skiing/alignment/07-canting

(see also the addendum to the alignment topic)

8 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

I was using already the Specialized insoles in my cycling shoes and, as far as I could tell, they were providing effective support. They were available and a fraction of the cost of getting a custom insole set made.

As yet another data point, my cycling shoes and footbeds are canted/posted in the opposite direction from what I use on skis and snowboards.

Seems odd in the thinking, but not in the using.

http://beckmannag.com/cycling/on-cycling-alignment

 

You seem to like what you've recently achieved with regard to 'pedal' inputs to your board, so you owe it to yourself to get something more solid than the BG insole. If nothing else, having a sturdy, contoured material will allow you to explore/manipulate  medial/ lateral posting.

http://beckmannag.com/alpine-skiing/footbeds1

[AcousticBoarder]

12 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

Good move.

Can you take a few photos of the underside and both medial and lateral aspects of your footbeds? Curious as to what you have, and how they're constructed. 

Here's some photos

[Beckmann AG]

^

Room for improvement. The odds that your feet require neither medial or lateral posting at the forefoot fall somewhere between slim and none.

The average foot will usually require about .250+/- under the first met head. Based on some of your observations regarding what is and is not working, (along with your videos), you might need posting under the 5th met head.

You can reach a determination with a stack of business cards (or equivalent) and a reasonably level hard surface. 

Shiny cards can squirt out sideways, so go with quality.

 

Stand on one footbed, with the other foot off the floor, in the least complicated manner possible. (Head level, eyes front).  As you lift one foot, allow your navel to move laterally until it's more or less over the support foot.

Note which way your support foot rocks initially (will either rock to the medial side, or rock to the lateral side), then add small increments under that side of the foot until you notice the opposite tendency.

It's the first few seconds that matter.

When you have the right amount of posting in the right place, you should feel like you're more or less standing on the midline of your foot, possibly with slight, but even 'tick tock' to either side.

(As opposed to an asymmetric clench and release).

Quite often, when the target is hit, the upper body and extremities will suddenly relax.

When you think you have it figured out, rotate the footbed in 90 degree increments and verify that the floor is, in fact, level.

Then find something of equivalent thickness, tape it to the appropriate location, and abstract yourself to the snow.

 

Edited February 20, 2019 by Beckmann AG

[AcousticBoarder]

On 2/20/2019 at 10:39 AM, Beckmann AG said:

^

Room for improvement. The odds that your feet require neither medial or lateral posting at the forefoot fall somewhere between slim and none.

The average foot will usually require about .250+/- under the first met head. Based on some of your observations regarding what is and is not working, (along with your videos), you might need posting under the 5th met head.

You can reach a determination with a stack of business cards (or equivalent) and a reasonably level hard surface. 

Shiny cards can squirt out sideways, so go with quality.

 

Stand on one footbed, with the other foot off the floor, in the least complicated manner possible. (Head level, eyes front).  As you lift one foot, allow your navel to move laterally until it's more or less over the support foot.

Note which way your support foot rocks initially (will either rock to the medial side, or rock to the lateral side), then add small increments under that side of the foot until you notice the opposite tendency.

It's the first few seconds that matter.

When you have the right amount of posting in the right place, you should feel like you're more or less standing on the midline of your foot, possibly with slight, but even 'tick tock' to either side.

(As opposed to an asymmetric clench and release).

Quite often, when the target is hit, the upper body and extremities will suddenly relax.

When you think you have it figured out, rotate the footbed in 90 degree increments and verify that the floor is, in fact, level.

Then find something of equivalent thickness, tape it to the appropriate location, and abstract yourself to the snow.

 

So getting around to this now. My left (front) foot has a tendency to first go to the lateral/outside and then inside/medial. It is very close if not even. 

My left (rear) foot has the opposite tendency, to first go to the medial then lateral. It is not always consistent though and may go lateral first. I feel there is a greater variation for this foot as well as to if it is slight and even back and forth or if it is an asymmetrical tension. 

My left foot I could feel a shift with just 3 or 4 business cards to either side. I am possibly looking at 1 or 2 on the lateral side, but no more. Not really sure though as it feels pretty even as is. 

My right I noticed the footbed is not flat underneath. Not sure what to make of that, but potentially why I feel so much variation here. 

Follow up edits:

I've realized as I have been doing this my left foot has some discomfort now on the outside/ at the 5th met head. Presuming this means I would benefit from some more there. 

Also the foot bed does flatten out when weight is on it. 

[Beckmann AG]

^The uneven grind is just 'casual carpentry'. I wouldn't put my name on something like that, but it probably isn't affecting much other than comfort, if at all.

The hind foot tends to follow the action of the forefoot. If the front part of the foot is rocking, the grind at the back isn't going to make too much difference, especially if the posting foam is relatively soft.

If you can stabilize, or affect stability with only a few cards, the equivalent layering of Gorilla tape (or similar) should work on the hill for extended evaluation.