Old dog learns "new" tricks from an old board.

[SunSurfer]

I'm just over halfway through a holiday in Wanaka, riding at Cardrona. My riding is different, some might say better, than when the trip began. What I've learned is due to riding a new and an old board. Many of you will already know what I've learned, just call me slow, because I recognise what I'm now doing from others descriptions of how they ride.

New board - Coiler NFCE T+ (2017)  174cm 

Bruce built this for me in the knowledge that I rode a 54cm stance. I made a measurement error when I first mounted bindings on it, set them at the centre of the insert sets, not realising that actually that was 56cm. Rode it at ATC 2017 loved its' performance. Discovered at the beginning of this trip I'd been riding 56cm and experimented with the other 4 boards I have with me on this trip and it all feels good. For comparison with others I have a roughly 91-92cm inside leg measurement, ride at 60 degrees on both bindings and currently run 6 degrees of front toe lift, rear heel lift, and no canting. UPZ RC 10s.

When I went back to shorter stances it feels less stable.

Old board: RadAir Obsession (Pinkerman Extreme model)

I bought this second hand as a better option for powder than my pure carving boards, but it's a relatively stiff, cambered board that can be carved. I'd not ridden it much, so I spent a cloudy day getting acquainted and working out how to make it carve. 

I started off with the bindings angled to put heel and toe as close to the edge as possible without overhang. For my mondo 29 boots that worked out to about 47 degrees rear and just over 50 degrees at the front with a tweak of inward can't. My stance was centred along the effective edge, rather than centred on the binding inserts. But I'm an old dog, a creature of habit, and I just couldn't get comfortable so I gradually/incrementally rotated back to my familiar 60/60 degrees. That felt comfortable, and what's more the toeside turns were solid and powerful when I leaned on the edge through the lateral toes of my rear foot. Normally I'd have leaned on the edge levering the side of my boots especially the front leg. But try as I might, using my normal lateral boot pressure technique for heel side turns, I could not get the board to carve well on heelside. Time to try something different. What would happen if I pressured the heel edge using the lateral toes of my front foot? As I tried to do this I found I also needed to bring my centre of gravity a bit more forward. And then I got the same feeling in my front foot on starting a heelside turn as I got in my rear foot on toeside. 

WOW! That's a heel side turn. The board hooked up, the edge bit deeply and solidly, and the turn was tight. 

Practicing that heelside turn, moving my COG forward, getting that feeling that I'm pressuring both edges with subtle pressure through my toes 2 through 5, and the ends of the foot bones that lead to them, led to my finally learning about loading the nose of the board at the very beginning of the turn. Suddenly my board angle is getting even higher and the edge bite is getting deeper and solid. I've read/heard many people describe it but until that day on the RadAir I've never really understood/experienced it and experienced how much difference it makes to a turn. 

So that day was a great day. But the next was the icing on the cake. Cause I took out the Nirvana and applied all I'd learned on the Rad Air.

Edited August 17, 2018 by SunSurfer
Details

[dredman]

Great write up!  Learning is hard and so rewarding!  It took so much technique to ride the older boards well, they gave you tons of negative feedback when things are not going right.  The new boards are not as finicky when it comes to technique, but when good technique is applied it is an absolute joy.  The modern board builders have done so much to make this sport so much more forgiving and fun.  Many of us here have had major breakthrough hopping on your first modern construction board.  

The next breakthrough in new generation boards has already started.  Boards that do not need to be pedaled or weigh shifting forward/ aft, thus a lot less energy to ride.  If you get a chance to ride a Thirst, do a bunch of unlearning... roll it on to edge, stay centered and roll it even more to tighten up the turn.  Simple.  

The magic of this sport is those breakthrough days when things work out. So excited for you to get that day!

Fun Fun Fun! And that is the point of all of this... FUN!

 

[bumpyride]

The most fun I have is the learning phase of any sport.  The satisfying phase is when you're able to incorporate what you've learned.  The exciting phase is when you say to hell with all your preconceived ideas and go for it and finding out it works, and even more so when you get out of the same old rut and do something that no one else is doing.  That's how snowboarding got it's start.  Glad to see the lightbulbs going off.  Enjoy.

[Chouinard]

From “The Carvers Almanac”:

The progress of a carver on a quest for the perfect heel side can be predicted by a universal prophecy: 

Before you reach the advanced level of carving, you will have four breakthroughs.

But one of those breakthroughs will be a false epiphany.

By the time you reach the third breakthrough, you will have revised every one of your long-held beliefs on technique.

Just when you think you have grasped a unified, canonical truth of carving, you will realize it doesn't exist. Only then can you achieve true mastery.

 

[SunSurfer]

Having read Chouinard's quote I'm contemplating some Zen carving today. Blue skies, sub zero temps, 2 day old groomed snow.

[Allee]

So jealous. Take a run down Captain's for me and enjoy

[SunSurfer]

Captains ( both sides and down the middle), & Whitestar (including Sluicebox) got carved today. Last dayon this trip tomorrow. 3 hardbooters, 1 softbooter on a Donek Flux,  + the Chinese Junior alpine snowboard squad all digging trenches today. I'll ride Captains when the groom is fresh, just for you Allee, tomorrow!

[SunSurfer]

Reflecting on this trip, my last day's riding, and my evolving technique and perception of it.

Previously I've described the way I ride as feeling like I'm applying edge pressure with the sides of my knees leveraging the sides of my boots, particularly the knee on the outside of the turn. I'd found if I didn't feel that outside knee pressure the tail would washout, the turn would be "slarved" not carved.

If I was to describe what I feel now I'd say I'm carving by shifting my weight from one side of the sole of my foot to the other. I ride balanced front/back on the balls of both feet. To initiate a turn I push down with the front foot AND roll that pressure onto the side of both feet in the direction I want to turn. I ride Regular (left foot forward) so for a Right turn that means pressure over my left foot big toe and my right foot toes 3-5. A Left turn uses pressure over my left foot toes 3-5 and my right foot big toe. If I rode Goofy (right foot forward) the technique would be exactly the same.

I've become much more conscious of the feeling of pressure through the soles of my feet when I ride, both to balance front/back and to turn. The movements of my forefoot within the boot are small, subtle movements of inversion/eversion. I can still feel the movements in my knees that I used before, but the point of emphasis, the sensation my brain is predominantly monitoring as I ride has shifted.

I have a memory that Erik Beckmann has talked about these kind of small foot movements as being crucial to carving. I've just been reading descriptions of ski carving that talk about almost identical use of foot movements and pressure. Now I have to retain the memory of those sensations till the next time I get to ride. 

[Beckmann AG]

On 9/6/2018 at 10:34 AM, SunSurfer said:

Reflecting on this trip, my last day's riding, and my evolving technique and perception of it.

Previously I've described the way I ride as feeling like I'm applying edge pressure with the sides of my knees leveraging the sides of my boots, particularly the knee on the outside of the turn. I'd found if I didn't feel that outside knee pressure the tail would washout, the turn would be "slarved" not carved.

If I was to describe what I feel now I'd say I'm carving by shifting my weight from one side of the sole of my foot to the other. I ride balanced front/back on the balls of both feet. To initiate a turn I push down with the front foot AND roll that pressure onto the side of both feet in the direction I want to turn. I ride Regular (left foot forward) so for a Right turn that means pressure over my left foot big toe and my right foot toes 3-5. A Left turn uses pressure over my left foot toes 3-5 and my right foot big toe. If I rode Goofy (right foot forward) the technique would be exactly the same.

I've become much more conscious of the feeling of pressure through the soles of my feet when I ride, both to balance front/back and to turn. The movements of my forefoot within the boot are small, subtle movements of inversion/eversion. I can still feel the movements in my knees that I used before, but the point of emphasis, the sensation my brain is predominantly monitoring as I ride has shifted.

I have a memory that Erik Beckmann has talked about these kind of small foot movements as being crucial to carving. I've just been reading descriptions of ski carving that talk about almost identical use of foot movements and pressure. Now I have to retain the memory of those sensations till the next time I get to ride. 

One of the difficulties in learning to ride (or ski) beyond the intermediate level, is realizing that just because something 'works' in the moment, doesn't mean it's good for the long term.

Tilting a board by way of medial/lateral knee movement certainly gets things done, but then one can't very well maintain/effect edge angle and alter knee flexion at the same time, a principle which effectively locks what could otherwise be a very effective means of suspension.

Granted, half the difficulty in riding 'out of the feet' is boot/binding configuration, but the other part is the awareness of what it actually feels like, and that it feels different that what came before.

Make extensive notes on how you found what you found, so you can find it again next season. There are few things quite so transient as the sensation of truly effective movement, and summer has a way of wiping memory like a jostled Etch-a-Sketch.

Regarding the ski carving talk: Some of it is valid, much of it is not.

->At the end of it all, good skiing, like good riding, involves doing almost nothing with great proficiency. 

 

Meanwhile, congratulations on your discovery. Things should get more interesting.

[SunSurfer]

On 9/16/2018 at 4:12 AM, Beckmann AG said:

One of the difficulties in learning to ride (or ski) beyond the intermediate level, is realizing that just because something 'works' in the moment, doesn't mean it's good for the long term.

Tilting a board by way of medial/lateral knee movement certainly gets things done, but then one can't very well maintain/effect edge angle and alter knee flexion at the same time, a principle which effectively locks what could otherwise be a very effective means of suspension.

Granted, half the difficulty in riding 'out of the feet' is boot/binding configuration, but the other part is the awareness of what it actually feels like, and that it feels different that what came before.

Make extensive notes on how you found what you found, so you can find it again next season. There are few things quite so transient as the sensation of truly effective movement, and summer has a way of wiping memory like a jostled Etch-a-Sketch.

->At the end of it all, good skiing, like good riding, involves doing almost nothing with great proficiency. 

Meanwhile, congratulations on your discovery. Things should get more interesting.

My aims in writing the thread were primarily

An aide-memoire for myself just as you suggest and

Secondarily, to describe, for others seeking to improve, the clues I'd found that might help them find a way to progress. 

Riding through the soles my feet allowed more turns, and tighter turns, to be made on steeper slopes with no perceptible increase in effort. I carved slopes I would previously have side slipped or slarved for fear of losing control. I carved slopes that were more cut up and lumpy than before because my knees were more able to work as shock absorbers. I was thrown fore/aft less because of the more sensitive balance and the longer base of support. I was less fatigued than those who rode with me. And it was great fun.

It felt like I needed to do very little to put the board on edge and keep it there. I could enjoy the journey rather than concentrate on the driving.

Very definitely more produced for the same or less effort. Looking forward to finding the next way point on this journey.

[SunSurfer]

On 9/15/2018 at 9:12 PM, Beckmann AG said:

Granted, half the difficulty in riding 'out of the feet' is boot/binding configuration, but the other part is the awareness of what it actually feels like, and that it feels different that what came before.

Make extensive notes on how you found what you found, so you can find it again next season. There are few things quite so transient as the sensation of truly effective movement, and summer has a way of wiping memory like a jostled Etch-a-Sketch.

Found it again! Now the sensation has evolved from just the toes/ball of the foot to much of the side of the foot so that at times even my heels are pushing against the side of the carving groove. The feeling is much the same both sides, just swapped sides of the feet.

[daveo]

Nice thread. Going to give this a shot tomorrow or Monday. 

[SunSurfer]

On 9/15/2018 at 9:12 PM, Beckmann AG said:

 

Been riding in lumpy chopped up soft snow for much of the last 2 days after overnight snow each night on my 174 Nirvana Energy T+. Normally this would have left me very fatigued but consequences of the riding out of the soles of my feet have been new things I've learned. 

1/ I've learned to "soft" carve in this snow on the Green and gentler Blue runs. It starts with a much slower gentle lean into the turn, rather than trying to press in the edge, and the turn is a much larger radius.  Touching a hand is not a good idea as it catches and pulls the whole arm. But with the board actually carving rather sliding sideways at all the whole feeling over the lumps is much easier.

2/ As I continued to carve like this I became aware that my hips and knees were now functioning as a much more effective suspension system. The knee and hip joints were bent a little, the muscles were gently tensed but were able to bounce with the bumps without significant strain. I used to say "my knees don't see like they used to" but this was like they'd just recovered good vision.

Not ideal carving conditions, but I feel like I've begun to learn some new skills for dealing with lumpy conditions. Very satisfying and my quads were much less fatigued than I would have expected from a full day in those conditions on a board without a plate.

Edited February 5, 2019 by SunSurfer

[Beckmann AG]

Learning is fun, isn't it?

Thanks for the progress report.

[daveo]

So I tried this technique today. But I'm doing something wrong. Started with toeside mainly.

I still felt like I had to really drive my knees into the snow to get low and make my board arc nicely.

Any suggestions? 

[SunSurfer]

@daveo I learned to do this initially on a long Green relatively constant gradient slope. For me, steeper slopes are not helpful for the early stages of learning/trying a new technique.

As we've chatted about off-forum I face forward along the board on both sides of turn. 

I suspect I still use a bit of "knee drive" but the sensations I'm more conscious of are in sides of the soles of my feet. 

On screen I've recorded it as an almost instantaneous change, in real life it takes time, and there is an overall direction of improvement but lots of wobbles on the way.

Edited February 5, 2019 by SunSurfer

[pow4ever]

11 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

Not ideal carving conditions, but I feel like I've begun to learn some new skills for dealing with lumpy conditions. Very satisfying and my quads were much less fatigued than I would have expected from a full day in those conditions on a board without a plate.

Alan you have been riding sequentially for quite a while in Aspen.
How much of it do you attributed to the "conditioning" vs "new skill learn"?

That's one of the reason why at this point of my progression.  I don't think plate is good idea for me.
Riding in sub-optimal condition tend to show me the weakness of my technique.  Which afford me the options to address it or put in a layer of abstraction/indirection to address it.
It's finding that right balance:  I can fix it vs throw money at the problem.  I tend to like problem I can throw money at but it's so much more rewarding to me when I can fix it.

shade of gray

[SunSurfer]

Some of it is muscles getting used to doing it again, but what I've written about above is primarily technique change. The foundation has been riding out of the soles of my feet.

[pow4ever]

Cool; got it.  Thanks!
My point is our body is pretty amazing.  It tend to find better and more efficient way when pushed beyond what it is used to.
Sometime that's a good thing, sometime; not so much.

[Beckmann AG]

14 hours ago, daveo said:

 I'm doing something wrong. 

I still felt like I had to really drive my knees into the snow to get low and make my board arc nicely.

Any suggestions? 

The point is to use articulation of your feet to induce lean angle, and then use the rest of your body and available inputs to make use of that lean angle.

 

[daveo]

2 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

The point is to use articulation of your feet to induce lean angle, and then use the rest of your body and available inputs to make use of that lean angle.

 

I'll keep this in mind for tomorrow's session. Thanks. Think I'm not too far off then. Start from the feet. 

[SunSurfer]

Just finished the last day of my Aspen visit. 

Objective evidence of improvement, Snowmass NASTAR Platinum x4 runs today, 2 in each course, lowest handicap 29.30.

Very happy boy.

http://skiracing.nastar.com/index.jsp?pagename=results&page=comp&compid=830957&year=2019

Edited September 15, 2019 by SunSurfer

[daveo]

Nice nice!!!

I hear there is an opening on the world cup circuit since be recently backed out due to a back injury... You're up mate! 

Edited February 16, 2019 by daveo

[Beckmann AG]

4 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

lowest handicap 29.30.

What was your best previous?

[SunSurfer]

On 2/16/2019 at 4:43 PM, Beckmann AG said:

What was your best previous?

34.05, a Platinum, 2 years ago but it was a one off. 

I've been running the course at Snowmass every time I've come since 2012. My normal pattern would be bronzes/silvers/mixed in with DNFs as I crashed out of the course. A Gold was an occasion.

What was good today was 

a) the consistency, no crashes, 4 Platinum run's within 0.6 seconds of each other, on both courses, progressively getting faster as I tightened the line. No gates were even touched.

b) Snowmass is not a straightforward course. It starts relatively flat for the first 4 gates (the fast skiers pole propel through the first 3), then it veers to the right and steepens with 2 successive gates that need significantly tighter turns if you're not to be late in the line for the entry to the last 7 gates. I've always struggled to get the carve really working for those crucial 2 middle gates with the tighter turns.

Video above is from a couple of years ago. You can see me slow as I muck up those gates. Today it felt consistently easy, like I had all the time in the world. My Kessler 162 worked really well for those 2 gates.

To make further improvements in time I need to tighten my line and get closer to the gates. A chin bar on my helmet might make me braver, but I have the body and hand armour already.

Edited April 20, 2019 by SunSurfer