utahcarver Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 Below is a pic of my Tanker 200 with TD2's and yellow e-rings. This is the result of riding one day in a foot of fresh snow. It may be hard to see the deformations in the black p-tex but you can see them. The binding suck mirrors the embossed pattern on the topsheet of the board. I tried several camera angles and this is the best one of the lot to show the binding suck on the rear binding only. After a half day of riding pow my front leg was a bit sore because of putting my weight forward. I used the recommended 'sweet spot' on the Tanker and it seemed to trim out fine once I pressured the nose a bit more than normal. My concern is if I'm going to pull out the rear inserts if I continue to ride with TD2's or any other plate binding. Anybody else have this happen to their beloved Tanker? Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nils Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 not sure why you should blame the TD2 or any other binding...? Succion cups happens on some boards for unknown reasons, and it has nothing to do with bindings but in how the board is built, what core it has, and what resin was used... they do not affect riding in anyway, and most of the time, when you release the screw pressure, they go back to flat... Nice rug thu ;) Nils ps: has the tanker really be designed for plate riding... not sure of that btw.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Istvan Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 Interesting angle for plate bindings and hardboots.... of course, it has nothing to do with the suck.... Cheers, István Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateW Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 I've had some degree of binding suck with every board/binding/combo I've ever had. Unless it's really excessive I wouldn't worry about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Houghton Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 I'd check how tight the mounting bolts are - maybe they are just overtorqued and loosening them will allow the board to return to it's original shape? The bolts only need to be tight enough to stop them from loosening, which is nowhere near as tight as most people install them............... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RicHard Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 I can't see how much the bindings sucked the board but I can confirm that, on every board I had, the race bindings sucked a little the board. Every time I was scraping the wax, the wax stayed well hidden (from the scrapers action) in the area that's under the bindings. I think that a little sucking is normal, with race bindings and... powerful riding! ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoffV Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 That's a pretty harsh statement . I've got that on every board I own, and it has nothing to do with TD2's but rather the board and inserts, and like Nils said it doesn't affect the ride of the board. I'm sure any of the board manufactures can comment on this or Mike DeSantis at PTC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carvedog Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 meant the bindgins "suck" but rather describing the depressions (suck holes in the base of the board where the inserts pull up. This has also happened to me on virtually every board I have except my Burners. I think this is a compression of the malleable or soft parts of the core and it has not seemed to effect the ride of any of my equipment. Does make it harder to make the base look pretty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utahcarver Posted January 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 Nils: I'm not blaming the binding for the deformation in the board. It is certainly the board that is deforming as a result of the binding/board assembly. That's why I'm asking if anyone else has had this happen (to a Rad-Air Tanker). GeoffV: Depending on how one reads 'TD2 binding suck' it could sound harsh. Again, as with Nils' post, I'm not blaming the binding. I guess I could have said, "Tanker inserts suck" and got nailed for blaming the problem on the board. As I mentioned, the 'suction cups' mirror the embossed pattern on the topsheet. It would appear that this is normal for most boards that use plate bindings. I looked at my other snowboards that I have soft bindings on and I don't see the same results. Chris: I loosened the bolts on the disc and the pattern on the base remained the same. Thanks for the replies. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nils Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 indeed suck means succion ;) Not that the bindings suck aka are crap! I have talked to Frank about the succion cups issues ( we've had a board with the issue) and he says it shall be the core and the fiberglass complex that gets stressed a bit too much. This is why we put ash in the insert zone for better resistance. I think softer wood would get the problem more easily too. What wood is the tanker core made of? N. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikerdad Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 I've been thinking about experimenting with trying to repair insert suck. Like others, every board I've ever had has had this problem. I've had a couple of delaminated boards in the past and, as I remember, there's nothing between the bottom of the inserts and the P-tex. I'm thinking that if I can drill a small (1/16") hole through the bottom of the insert, without going through the P-tex (I have a drill press, you wouldn't want to try it by hand), I could fill the insert with something like shoe goo and then force the goo between the insert and the p-tex with a screw. If it tended to "bubble" I think it could be smoothed out with a little pressure and maybe some heat. I just can't bring myself to try it on the boards I have at the moment. Maybe someone has an old board they could try it on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 Did you hot wax the board with the bindings mounted? That could be the cause of the problem....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nils Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 well there is something between inserts and the ptex: the fiberglass Inserts are hammered into the woodcore, then the core is sandwiched between fiberglass. Then you have, depending on the board model, an eventual rubber layer, then the ptex. Getting something near the inserts would mean drilling into the ptex, fiberglass until you touch the metal. Be aware also that some inserts have NO bottom ( just a thin layer of aluminium sticker to prevent resin from pouring in): it means that you can see the screws from bindings going through the board if they are too long ( for this reason we are now using tougher, locked bottom inserts) Nils Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy D Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 I'd check how tight the mounting bolts are - maybe they are just overtorqued and loosening them will allow the board to return to it's original shape? The bolts only need to be tight enough to stop them from loosening, which is nowhere near as tight as most people install them............... Speaking of which ... I wonder if there is a specific torque we should be using, and if that torque varies from board to board. Any ideas? I know I'd be a lot more comfy torquing evenly with each bolt, rather than 'feeling' it. It's the same way with car tires: I won't drive away without torqueing them properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikerdad Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 Thank Nils, I wouldn't have tried it on anything but a junker but it looks like it would be a waste of time. The depressions have never bothered me except for the aesthetics and a little more work when waxing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utahcarver Posted January 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 Red: I rode the board brand new with factory wax on it. I have been thinking about the TD2 e-ring and disc and how they are mounted to the Tanker. I'm at work so I can't see the board now. But, I'm thinking that the embossed topsheet makes the ring/disc assy sit higher on the outsides of the assy. The disc that holds the four m5 bolts thus sits lower/closer to the topsheet. When the bolts are tightened, it sucks that part of the topsheet up to where it meets the bottom of the ring/disc assy. I'll post pics of the topsheet later to illustrate this idea when I can get to the board. If I'm right, then this is clearly a design flaw with the Tanker. Why would a manufacturer put two different levels/heights of topsheet in an area where the inserts are? Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Dold Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 TD, I've always wondered what a suggested torque would be, too. I'm kind of a "numbers" guy. But for what it's worth, I've had dimples in Doneks, F2's, just about every board I've ever had, and I don't tighten the screws all that tight. I'd call it medium. I think there is going to be some amount of crush with any board. It's probably a good idea to check the tightness of the binding screws after this has happened. When waxing, I either take the bindings off, or if I'm in a hurry or lazy, I leave them on but avoid spending much time with the iron under the inserts, because I think heating the board with tension from the bindings will probably cause some relaxation of the fibers, deepening of the dimples and maybe slight loosening of the screws (loss of preload). Wow, that was a hell of a run-on sentence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nils Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 Just made this drawing so everyone sees how inserts are usually set in the woodcore. Note that there is usually a small fiber cloth that is hammered with the insert so there is fiberglass around it to hold it tight. Also missing on the drawing is the non mandatory rubber sheet that is put on the inserts zone under the topsheet, to ensure proper waterproofing of the core. http://www.okao.com/gallery/album01/coupesnowboard2 Nils Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Firestone Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 Donek adds extra fiberglass underneath the core to lower the BSI (base suck index): Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDY_2_Carve Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 I have base insert suck on every board I own to include my soft boot setup. Both my friends have it on their soft boot setups as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 Some of my boards have slight binding suction areas others don't. A nylon base brush takes the excess wax away easily. Thanks for the nice pics Nils & Scott. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Houghton Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 The nasty part of this is that the dimples don't disappear when the bindings are loosened. That is not a good situation, it means something has gone past its yield point. Most boards that "suck" come back out when the bindings are loosened. Maybe a spacer is needed to level out the board surface where the binding sits? But the damage is done already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Dahl Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 I've got an F2 Breezer with a lot of binding suck that has never seen a TD2 except from a distance. Running Snowpro's on it. My Volkl Renntiger has very little w/TD2's and a fair amount of hard riding. Core material in the binding area must be the deciding factor in this issue, as my Nitro SC has very minimal dimpling in the binding area and has only seen my Snowpro's on it as long as I've had it. I have never had to retorque the bindings on the Nitro, and it seems I'm always doing it to the F2. Me thinks it's time to replace the F2 with a Axis.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utahcarver Posted January 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 ....That's cool! A BSI for what I and others are describing. The BSI acronym would be good to use where I work for yet another index. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJ-PS Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 You can check out the Tanker construction on the website www.rad-air.com Go to Core Construction and choose the Tanker / Tanker Wide option. It's the third from the top on the right. I've got the insert suction on some of my boards too. No worries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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