Extreme Carving Question?

[Guest Tem73]

Im 5'7 170lbs Ive been riding a Factory Prime 180 withburton plastic flat plates, with burton furnace boots which have alot of flex since 1999.

Ive just bought some Deeluxe suzukas, with TD2 intecs, I also went with 3/3 cant, and the suspension kit, Im alittle nervous about the 3/3 cant will I still be able to lay down the carves, will I notice a big difference? is there anyone out there who has made a change like this maybe give me some feedback if you would be so Nice!!

Thanks Alot!!

[RJ-PS]

If you are referencing the guys from extremecarving when you talk about still being able to lay down the carves, probably not.

They're not using any cants and they're using special equipment to do what they're doing (Swoards, Northwave 900s, Ti bails, etc.)

That said, you can get pretty darn close to EC with the equipment you got. Still haven't seen evidence of anyone besting the EC guys at their own game though. Sure is fun to watch them carve.

[Mike T]

I think the biggest difference, at first, will be the boots. The Suzukas are pretty darn stiff when you lock them in position. I use them "Powder mode" in order to get some forward flex.

[Jack M]

You will have no trouble at all laying out long low carves with the 3 degree discs. Cants and lifts, when set up properly for you, can only help you achieve your best.

Here's an article on cants and lifts:

http://bomberonline.com/articles/canting.cfm

[RCrobar]

Yes and No

If you are using the hip to hip technique, then I agree with Jack, you will have no problem.

If you are using the EC technique, then I agree with RJ, you will have a quite a bit of trouble.

The body English/Style of the two laid out turns are similar in some ways but very different in others, thus requiring slightly different set ups ... definitely first cousins.

IMHO this question needs to be asked and answered with the prescribe technique being used clearly stated.

Rob

[Zcarver]

Ive just bought some Deeluxe suzukas, with TD2 intecs, I also went with 3/3 cant, and the suspension kit, Im alittle nervous about the 3/3 cant will I still be able to lay down the carves, will I notice a big difference? is there anyone out there who has made a change like this maybe give me some feedback if you would be so Nice!!

Thanks Alot!!

We have almost the same set up, only I am still using the TD 1. When I finally gave up the race plates and got new boots, the FP was like a new board! I felt very stable and better control in the turns. The only thing that did change a bit was the heel side. After a few runs you will adjust to the new equipment!

Cheers!

AZ

[mnovak]

Yes and No

If you are using the hip to hip technique, then I agree with Jack, you will have no problem.

If you are using the EC technique, then I agree with RJ, you will have a quite a bit of trouble.

The body English/Style of the two laid out turns are similar in some ways but very different in others, thus requiring slightly different set ups ... definitely first cousins.

IMHO this question needs to be asked and answered with the prescribe technique being used clearly stated.

Rob

Rob, is the problem as you see it the cant, the boots, the narrowness of the board or a combination of these things? I thought some of the EC guys (other than Jacques, Nils, or Patrice) used cant/lift and Suzukas/Indys, but with wider width boards.

[RCrobar]

Hi

The problems stems from the way the body needs to move with the push-pull, rotation, surfboard (what ever you want to call it) technique, the resulting stance angles and boot out.

With this technique the body moves from leading hip to stomach, rather than hip to hip Don’t think of the rotation as a shoulder rotation, think of it as a combined hip and shoulder rotation (like they are fused together). Imagine a golfer, tennis or ice hockey player trying to swing without involving the core muscles (torso/hips) in the swing, not very effective. The rotation technique uses a similar approach.

Step ins (stiff bindings and stiff boots for this example) really restrict the riders ability to roll the boot, permitting the hips and shoulders to come around. I took a video (on the carpet) of my rear boots movement inside the bails and couldn’t believe how much movement the standard bails allowed (Note - they are NOT designed to do this!) The step in cable, on my rear boot, KILLED, me when I tried step ins... pressure from trying to force the boot to move laterally.

To have a strong rotations it helps to have the stance angles set a little lower, mid to high 40’s for the rear foot. If you have small feet you can use a 20 cm wide board, if your feet are big you will boot out.

So the main issues I see are restricted movement and big feet booting out on a narrow board.

If you can move the way you need/want to, your boots don’t kick the edge out and the snow is forgiving enough to hold the edge all will work IMHO.

J,P,N have tried to optimize every part of their riding, but I bet they could lay down a turn on any board with a variety set ups! They have tested a lot gear and believe they have recommended the best arrangement for what they are trying to do... even though others will work.

I hope this helps, but take it with a grain of salt as I am definitely an apprentice.

Rob

[astrokel]

With this technique the body moves from leading hip to stomach, rather than hip to hip Don’t think of the rotation as a shoulder rotation, think of it as a combined hip and shoulder rotation (like they are fused together). Imagine a golfer, tennis or ice hockey player trying to swing without involving the core muscles (torso/hips) in the swing, not very effective. The rotation technique uses a similar approach.

Rob, that's really interesting, the imagery of the golf or tennis swing and connection of the upper and mid body. It's exactly the imagery I was playing with the first time out with the Swoard. The only thing that is still a bit of a blank is the coordination with the legs. In the swing analogies, the legs power out from the rear in a step to the front in order to apply power to the object being hit. In your experience does this analogy hold up with the rotation you're talking about and if not what is the dynamic connection between the legs and the upper body? and What do you mean "the body moves from leading hip to stomach"?

Step ins (stiff bindings and stiff boots for this example) really restrict the riders ability to roll the boot, permitting the hips and shoulders to come around.

It's clear that there needs to be a certain amount of lateral movement at the leg/board connection in order to get the rotation you talked about. the question I have is where that movement needs to be. In Jacques' and Patrice's model the movement happens at the boot sole with the ankles moving only fore/aft and with minimal lateral ankle movement. With my boots (224's, pretty soft I hear) and the rotational flexibility I have in my rear leg I can muster quite a bit of lateral movement with the boot sole staying relatively stable but the lateral movement happening in my rear leg twisting and the relatively soft boots I have. I realize this probably sounds physiologically unsound but it's the way my body moves (this is probably why I'm more comfortable with a splay of 12-15* between my front and rear binding angles). I'm wondering if the movement necessarily needs to be at the boot sole or can you "roll the boot" in the entire leg assembly. My guess would be there would be a certain amount of structural loss in the twist but unfortunately my legs kinda like to do the twisting thing and I'm wondering about how to accomodate them.

It's exciting learning a new skill. It's sort of like how I felt when I first started carving/snowboarding ten years ago. I just wanted to get back out on the snow and try out every hypothesis I could come up with except back then I had no access to the internet and there wasn't much up back then anyway!

Thanks, Kelvin

[RCrobar]

Hey Kelvin

With the swing analogy I used the word *similar* because the ultimate goal of a golf drive and a snowboard turn are so different. I hoped to create a mental image of say a golfers rear foot twisting as the hips ‘snap’ through during a drive. But a golfer doesn’t start in a squatted position, stand up straight, then squat down again ... while this is exactly what a snowboarder does; very bent legs at the transition and straight at the apex of the turn.

A better analogy of the leg movement is a kid swinging on a swing set. A child quickly learns when to ‘pump’ their legs is they want to go higher, maintain a constant swing height or slow down. Sensing when and how hard to push on a swing set is very similar to the finesse needed when bending and extending the legs during a boarding turn.

One tip that may help is the slight ‘push off’ at the end of a this little push helps to break the edge from the turn, the legs are pulled through ready for the next turn.

The stomach comment was meant to address the original Extreme carving question, before the thread was hijacked:) A better way to explain it might be the shoulders/hips are perpendicular to the tip/tail on the heel side but and are parallel to the tip/tail of the board on the toe side.

With regard to the boots I agree with you, as long as you can move the way you want to all is good. The issue with the boots is more related to the spring system as a support system to protect the ankles. If a boot shell is soft it allows the lateral movement, but *may* not have enough support for the heel-toe boot flexing. The spring system is only as strong as the shell that supports it. So a soft shell lets you move laterally may collapse under a hard impact.

Sounds like you are having fun, guess this is the main point!

Cheers from one rookie to another.

Rob

[astrokel]

But a golfer doesn’t start in a squatted position, stand up straight, then squat down again ...

Uh oh... I better work on my swing because that's the way I hit the ball! ;)

Thanks for clarifications. I think I'm pretty clear on the actual movements required, I don't think they're all that different from "conventional" carving tech only subtle differences... like you said, it seems it's really an issue of timing (like most advanced athletic skills) that is the key to find.

In regards to the hijackings there should probably be an intention detector at the the entry to all of the threads, you never know when someone might try to direct the thread into a particularly sensitive area of discussion...

I wonder if the difficulty I have in more chopped up snow is because the 224's are just not stiff enough... I know chopped up snow is easier to handle in my hard boots than my softies, maybe this extends to harder boot shells as well? Well something more to think about... (in another thread ;) ... speaking of hijackings)

[bobdea]

is that a team board?

if so you are a lucky guy, I have been on a couple custom burtons, they were sick, I wish I had of been smart and bought one when I had the chance.

Its nuts how much canting can change the way you ride, for me 3 degrees in the front is too much but it has allot to do with the individual, at the worst you could get another cant to make it right.

good luck!