Stance, etc…

[Snowgirl]

Hi all, I just got my very first alpine snowboard. What is the normal beginner degree that you would recommend for my bindings? Also how far apart do I want my bindings? I am new to everything, so everything feels strange to me. If anyone has any tips/tricks for first timers let me know! Thanks! 

[st_lupo]

Open the flood gates!!! This is my goto: https://beckmannag.com/hardboot-snowboarding/hardboot-binding-configuration

[Jack M]

Welcome!!  Here's a quick start guide:

Stance width should be about 2/3 of your inseam measurement (crotch to floor).  Center your stance relative to the center set of inserts in the board.

Binding angles should be chosen such that your boots do not overhang (stick out) past the edges of the board.  For your first few days you can tolerate a little overhang.  Front binding angle should be about 3-5 degrees higher than the back binding angle.

Hopefully your bindings are adjustable for toe/heel lift and lateral cant.  A good place to start is with toe lift on your front binding, heel lift on your back binding, and no cant.  Adjust to taste after riding.

It would be great if you could take a hardboot lesson with The G Team, they're in Minnesota.

https://www.thegteam.com/home

Some further reading:

http://alpinesnowboarder.com/tech-articles/

[SunSurfer]

Jack's instructions above are a simple and reasonable start point.

Binding angles are generally aimed to get the toe and heel of your boots as close to the edge of the board as possible, but without the overhang referred to above. That allows you to more easily get the board onto either edge, but not have your boot toe or heel drag in the snow as you arc through a carved turn with your board high on its edge.

Bindings usually are adjustable for the position of both the toe and heel, and depending on how your boot sits in the binding, you may want to move the boot either forward or back in the binding in order to get both the toe and heel as close as possible to the edge.

Because your front binding should be angled slightly more along the length of the board the front boot toe and heel won't necessarily be as close to the edge as the rear.

I'd also recommend you get the canting of your boot cuffs sorted so that your boot soles are flat when you stand upright. Lots of YouTube videos demonstrate the process for ski boots. The aim is exactly the same for hard snowboard boots. Because hard snowboard boots are HARD, getting everything aligned correctly is essential for comfortable and functional riding.

A good stance for you is first of all comfortable to stand in. It should allow you to effectively balance on either edge. It should allow you to move your centre of mass both up and down, and forward and back.

 

 

[Aracan]

Good idea to sort out boot cuffs first. They sometimes come at the strangest angles.

Also +1 for getting everything aligned correctly.

And +1 for adjusting the rear binding at the lowest angle that still avoids overhang.

As for the front binding: Some will tell you 3° steeper, others will recommend 33°. It's a matter of technique and personal preference.

Note that the steeper the angles, the more important lift tends to become. Conversely, cant will come into play more with lower angles.

And finally, note that (unfortunately) the ramp angle ("inbuilt lift) differs very much between different hardboot models.

[Deuxdiesel]

It is easy to get overwhelmed with the details.  Simple is better.  Focus on the basics and then work up from there. 

-Put your boots on and stand on the bare board so that the centerline of your body is at the center point between the front and rear binding inserts or better yet if there is a mark showing the center point.

-Rotate your feet on the bare board so that your actual heels and toes are over the edges.  Don't worry about heel or toe drag at first- you can adjust that as Jack mentioned.

-Slide your feet outward equally until the outside edges of your boot soles begin to lift up from the board.  

This gives a basic, functional stance for your first attempts.   Your body will tell you what adjustments it needs pretty quickly.  The canting, lifting and angle tweaking can come soon after.

[Jack M]

@Snowgirl, I was curious so I asked The G Team if they give lessons to individuals like you and the answer is yes.  You can email alpine(at)thegteam.com.  Good luck!

[bigwavedave]

If you find yourself near Duluth, I ride most days at Spirit Mt.  I'd be happy to take a look at your setup and help get you going.

There are some ex-racers and coaches that ride down around the twin cities, Buck, Afton, Welch?

Find the hill you ride at in the "ride board" and try posting there.

[SunSurfer]

15 hours ago, Aracan said:

Note that the steeper the angles, the more important lift tends to become. Conversely, cant will come into play more with lower angles.

Your stance will effectively end up putting one foot in front of the other. Lift helps you deal with that.

Your stance may also effectively put you feet closer together, or further apart than they were when you get your boot cuffs canted to get the soles flat on the floor. Closer together or further apart moves your legs sideways and laterally tilts the boot sole. Canting, which can be either direction and in varying amounts helps to deal with that sideways leg tilt.

 

[Señor Chuggs]

can anyone recommend a good material to put between an ibex/burton cant disk and the snowboard? Its just a hard plastic wedge with a metal center.

[slabber]

Automotive paint protection film perhaps.

[Señor Chuggs]

Awsome..  my setup has limited cant/lift options.  I feel it most on toeside I think at first, but then I think it could also be a slop in mid-to-late heelside turn that inhibits finishiation.

I want my back heel up, canted ever slightly inward if at all, and ankle hinged tighter --but with movement.  Front foot is pretty flat and feels fine.

my board has that damn 3 hole insert pattern (love it though).  Next big equipment purchase will probably be a used modern carving board + bindings, but not this season.

anyway, my start at a solution: I got some UPZ boot shells. I think ill try and see if the internal ramp and flex on my new back boot is enough with a flat binding.  If so Ill try the burton cant wedge under the front binding to counter the ramp on the front UPZ boot.

if the back foot needs more lift or the front doesn't feel "flat", I'll wear my AT boot on the front foot that has less cuff hinge, and is probably less ramp.

I don't really have a question I'm just trying to think what stance options I have to try.  My turns are starting to get more consistent, in that it no longer takes days of riding to finally click.  I am riding good now until Im on slopes/conditions outside my comfort, or I get tired.  I'm getting tired very quick.  I stop to sit on the sides a lot during a session to catch my breath and rest my legs.  I'm thinking theirs a stance adjustment out there that will conserve a lot more of my energy

[jburk]

If you're wanting to stay with that board with the 3-hole pattern for another season or two, and want some bindings that have lift & cant options and will be compatible with your current 3-hole as well as future boards with a 4-hole pattern, keep an eye out for some used Bomber TD3s with the toe bails rather than the Fintec stepin heels (TD3 Intec won't work well with your 26.5 UPZs). They'll likely come with a 4-hike center puck, but Bomber online shows stock in the 3-hole adapter as well, so pick up a pair of 3-hole adapters and you'll have some bindings you can use with your current board as well as something newer you might purchase in a year or two. 

[SunSurfer]

1 hour ago, Señor Chuggs said:

Awsome..  my setup has limited cant/lift options.  I feel it most on toeside I think at first, but then I think it could also be a slop in mid-to-late heelside turn that inhibits finishiation.

I want my back heel up, canted ever slightly inward if at all, and ankle hinged tighter --but with movement.  Front foot is pretty flat and feels fine.

my board has that damn 3 hole insert pattern (love it though).  Next big equipment purchase will probably be a used modern carving board + bindings, but not this season.

anyway, my start at a solution: I got some UPZ boot shells. I think ill try and see if the internal ramp and flex on my new back boot is enough with a flat binding.  If so Ill try the burton cant wedge under the front binding to counter the ramp on the front UPZ boot.

if the back foot needs more lift or the front doesn't feel "flat", I'll wear my AT boot on the front foot that has less cuff hinge, and is probably less ramp.

I don't really have a question I'm just trying to think what stance options I have to try.  My turns are starting to get more consistent, in that it no longer takes days of riding to finally click.  I am riding good now until Im on slopes/conditions outside my comfort, or I get tired.  I'm getting tired very quick.  I stop to sit on the sides a lot during a session to catch my breath and rest my legs.  I'm thinking theirs a stance adjustment out there that will conserve a lot more of my energy

UPZ boots have some features you can take advantage of.

Preset position for cuff - try setting the front boot cuff as upright as possible and the rear boot cuff as flexed forward as possible.

Springs: adjust the springs so the front is moderately tight, but the rear as free moving as possible.

Cuff canting: Ideally your boot cuffs are set so that standing in your boots with your feet straight below your hips the soles are flat on the floor. But you can produce the leg alignment effect of a couple of degrees of canting by deliberately tilting the boot that way.

Your stance should be in proportion to your physique as was pointed out at the beginning of this thread. Flat bindings will shorten the stance distance you will feel comfortable riding.

Technique for putting the board on edge and absorbing bumps is incredibly important for rider fatigue. I rode once with someone who was better than me when I started out and gave me lots of tips. But by now I'd improved a little. Halfway down he stopped by the side of the run to catch his breath. He grumbled "You're making more turns than me, better turns than me, and with less effort!"

Knees are the best joints for absorbing bumps. Putting the board on edge by putting your weight on the right or left sides of both of your feet frees up your knees to do the fore and aft balance adjustments and absorb the bumps. That style of riding is easier with higher binding angles, 55 degrees and higher. Between 50 and 65 degrees binding angles you are unlikely to need any canting (long explanation available on YouTube).

 

[slabber]

4 hours ago, jburk said:

If you're wanting to stay with that board with the 3-hole pattern for another season or two, and want some bindings that have lift & cant options and will be compatible with your current 3-hole as well as future boards with a 4-hole pattern, keep an eye out for some used Bomber TD3s with the toe bails rather than the Fintec stepin heels (TD3 Intec won't work well with your 26.5 UPZs). They'll likely come with a 4-hike center puck, but Bomber online shows stock in the 3-hole adapter as well, so pick up a pair of 3-hole adapters and you'll have some bindings you can use with your current board as well as something newer you might purchase in a year or two. 

The TD3 / Fintec heels do work with the shorter 279mm sole UPZ boots but may need the toe bail flipped to accommodate.  I'm happy with my setup.  Walker at Bomber is working on an improved TD3 Sidewinder toe piece that is expected to work better with the shorter soles like UPZ.  

[Señor Chuggs]

9 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

(long explanation available on YouTube)

I've seen your video and posts on here about stance width/angles.  I remember looking at them a lot last season.  I have really appreciated those contributions!

I run high angles on my narrow F2 and a Pureboarding-esque splay on the Burton.  First time I rode this season I took the F2 on my first day to warm up, but my buddy said he thought I rode better on the Burton.

It was at Breckenridge, with much wider slopes than I'm used on in the east.

good info on the TD3s -- thank you

[SunSurfer]

Yeah, Pureboarding style needs inward cant on the rear and ideally a sloppy laterally binding tension together with a soft rear boot for the knee drive. Joerg is dismissive of Intec heels for the reason they are too tight laterally. Pureboarding is visually more spectacular with the body drags etc. while a narrow board lends itself to a clean minimalist pencil line carve style, appreciated by those in the know. Both are entirely valid ways of having an absolute great time on the mountain. Glad you found the video helpful in understanding your setup.