Hello- new to hardboots and need help with new boots and binding , binding, parts, etc. THANKS!!

[Alexs]

Hello, where do I start? 50 yr old here with hip replacement , 235 lbs. and size 12.5 street shoe.

Started snowboarding at a young age (all soft boots) and my last setup was a K2 HC 162 board with Koflach Superpipe hybrid snowboard boots. Attached to standard K2 strap bindings for soft boots.

I also rented a board setup a while ago with hard boots and alpine board. I really enjoyed the responsiveness!

Last month I went to Steamboat and rented a Lib board and soft boots (felt big and sloppy)and absolutely hated it because of the UN-responsiveness.

I was going to buy the Phantom Slipper HD, as that seemed to be the closest to my favorite old boots, the KOFLACH superpipes, but realized that I have to bend down to enter and exit binding. If I could use Phantom slippers with a step in binding that would be the perfect solution for me, but I don't that is available.

I will be riding a K2 Instrument 163.

My riding angle are +21 front and +6 back

I ride regular and my front hip has the hip replacement.

So I am looking to buy the Softest hard boots with a STEP-IN binding because I have a hip replacement and I don't want to bend down every time.

Do the step in bindings come with the mounts? I've seen angled pucks, plates, boiler plates?, and other items.

 

Questions

1. What is the softest hardboot , best for freeriding and closest to getting a surfy feel on an a K2 Instrument 163.

2. What are STEP-IN bindings that are recommended? I've been told Intecs are good. Is there an Intec for freeriding and a surfy style. Not stiff for racing?

3. Also what cants are recommended? Will it depend on how soft the boots are? Or will I have to test different cants on the binding mounting plates to see what I prefer?  Do the bindings themselves come slanted? 

4.Do the step in bindings come with the mounts? I've seen angled pucks, plates, boiler plates?, and other items.

Sorry for all the questions and thank you very much for taking the time to help me in advance!!

Alex Schwarz

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Neil Gendzwill]

Hi, Alex.  If you want to maintain a surfy feel and those angles, then you'd be best off with the Burton Step-ons as we were discussing on youtube.  I don't feel hard boots are the right fit for what you are looking for.

As an example, I run hard boots on my alpine boards which all have a waist around 22 cm.  My angles there are 55 front, 50 rear which are typical or maybe a little shallow for a hard boot setup.

On my freeride board which has a waist of a little over 26 cm I am running the Burton Step-on Xs and Burton Ion boots, which is the stiffest step-on rig they sell.  My angles there are 27 front, 12 rear which would be on the steep side for most people in soft boots.

It's generally acknowledged that the transition zone between hard and soft is in the 35-45 degree angle range.  Soft boots don't work very well at all at angles over 45 and start getting iffy around 35, unless you make so many mods you may as well run hard boots.

[Alexs]

Hi Neil! And thank you again for all your information.

Your examples of your setup and your riding angles now make me think that you are correct and that I should go with the Burton Step- ons. Specifically the X's and the Ion Boots.

My only concern with the Burton Step-ons is the durability and heel lift (where there is play/gap between the boot cleat and the binding highback cleat) that I keep getting told about at various shops. 

When you have a chance, please let me know how the Burton Step-Ons are holding up since you made the video of your Step- on modification.

I believe your  mod video with the bicycle brake was made about a year ago. 

Alex

 

 

 

 

[Neil Gendzwill]

I don’t feel any heel lift in mine. I think people who say that haven’t stepped all the way in. There are two ratchet points there for safety I believe. The looser one is meant to make sure you are engaged even if there is snow underfoot. 

[RoroSnow]

Hi @Alexs and welcome,

As for @Neil Gendzwill, I did wrote a full review with personal mods on my StepOn equipment if you are interested.....

I use those bindings everyday for teaching, and after two season of use and abuse, thousands of ins and outs, I hadn't have any issue with what you're talking about.

As Neil said, the problem is that the people generally don't push the heel down enough to keep the heel cleat fully engaged....

And if bending down is a concern for you, two options :

A cable pulling system to open the binding or a foldable camera pole with a hook at the end where you can open the binding from a more upright body position but you have to carry it in a pocket and fold and unfold it each time.......(both systems have been discussed here in the forums with pictures of both as well).

Good luck !!

[Xargo]

Yeah Burton Step Ons are probably the way to go. There's also Nidecker Supermatic. I don't have experience with either but do have the Nidecker Kaon-CX which uses similar frame than Supermatics and that is a very supportive binding.

Also I have experimented a lot with different stiff softboots and soft hardboots. Currently I'm using modified Atomic Hawx XTD boots and I ride both 55 front, 46 rear and 21 front, -21 rear using the same boot (different board obviously). Great setup for what I want to do but no step in option. I've also tried to ride Deeluxe Track 700 boots with duck setup and while it worked surprisingly well, I wouldn't recommend that. In any case here's a video about that:

Track 700 of course is a pretty stiff boot and you might get more surfy feel with for example Track 325 (which is step in compatible) but still I would rather go for a stiff softboot or touring boot (I use both now).

[Jack M]

Welcome Alex.  I have Burton Step-Ons with the Ion boots and the X bindings, the stiffest setup.  It's still a far cry from hardboots.  I'd recommend renting/demoing them first.  If you still want hardboots after that you'll need boots that are Intec compatible - UPZ AT8 or Deeluxe Track 325.  I think the AT8 is softer, and you can also get softer tongues for the AT8.

A plug for the hardboots - the release for Intec step-in bindings is a cable that runs up the inside of the boot and has a handle at the top of the boot cuff.  The release for Burton Step-Ons is all the way down by your heel.  Significantly more bending over there.  Some people tie a leash to the Intec handle and run it up their pant leg so they don't have to bend over at all.

[Neil Gendzwill]

14 minutes ago, Jack M said:

A plug for the hardboots - the release for Intec step-in bindings is a cable that runs up the inside of the boot and has a handle at the top of the boot cuff.  The release for Burton Step-Ons is all the way down by your heel.  Significantly more bending over there.  Some people tie a leash to the Intec handle and run it up their pant leg so they don't have to bend over at all.

That’s solvable, in fact Alex is here because of a conversation we had in the comments section of my video showing how I extended that lever. 

[BlueB]

Most of the high level instructors around here, who tried step-ons, hated them... 

Hard boots can be made to work almost like softies, with aftermarket springs, walk mode, or some mods if necessary. The said Deeluxe boot will work for narrow fore-foot and wide heel, the UPZ other way round. 

I'd use the F2 bindings, Race version for a bit firmer feel, Carve RS (or ProFlex) for flexier. They come with enough canting/lifting shims to accommodate those low angles. 

You'll probably be able to handle slightly longer board, with hard boots, than your old one. 

Good luck. 

[Jack M]

Also, UPZs come with an adjustable spring system and ride/walk mode.  Deeluxe have a forward lean selector and ride/walk/hybrid mode, but no springs.  In walk mode the ankle joint is free to hinge forward and backward.  In hybrid mode, forward flex is free, backward flex stops at your selected forward lean.  In ride mode, the forward lean is locked at your chosen position and the ankle joint cannot hinge.  Flex comes from deforming the boot.  Kind of a dumb design if you ask me, but aftermarket spring systems are available.  Bomber makes a good one. 

[Neil Gendzwill]

I don't think any hard boot is going to give a surfy feel.  I run old Raichle 224s, they are pretty soft for hard boots and there is just no comparison to my Ions which are supposed to be a reasonably stiff soft boot.  When I'm on the Ions I have way more freedom of movement and ability to react to changing conditions underfoot, but the power I can put to the board is considerably lower. 

[Xargo]

What about Deeluxe Ground Control? I haven't tried them but they do seem to be intec compatible.

[boardguru]

My wife rides in Deeluxe Ground Controls with Fin Tec heels. She likes them way more than her Deeluxe 225's, lighter and a bit more forgiving stiffness wise. 

[Alexs]

Neil, I have to first thank you for directing me to this forum. 
I am finally home!!! 
And thank you to everyone who took the time to explain different options! 
I am going to read through these comments again, and figure out my next plan of attack.

I'll also have to go try on a pair of Burton Ions and go from there. 
And yes those Deeluxe Ground Controls look exactly like what I'm looking for. Problem will be trying a pair on. 
This will be an expensive decision making process. 

Thank you again.

Alex 

[Jack M]

2 hours ago, Xargo said:

What about Deeluxe Ground Control? I haven't tried them but they do seem to be intec compatible.

They are.  I forgot about them because they're not of interest to me, but they could be just the ticket.

6 minutes ago, Alexs said:

This will be an expensive decision making process. 

Unfortunately this is often the case with niche sports like this.  Worst case, you buy something and don't like it, you sell it here lightly used and call the difference a rental fee.

If you want to plan a trip to Colorado, you could demo Deeluxe boots at Donek.

[Aracan]

Hardboots can be made quite soft, at least fore-aft. I run the softest tongues (the red ones) on my UPZs, and the softest springs in the spring system. I have had to replace the center two buckles a few times, because they rub on each other so much when I really flex the boots.

That said:

1. It is probably still not what you would call "surfy".

2. Step-in plate bindings (which basically means Intec these days) are extremely stiff laterally, as the heels are held by retractable lateral pins.

If you want surfy, hardboots and step-ins are probably not the best way to go.

[Neil Gendzwill]

4 hours ago, Aracan said:

2. Step-in plate bindings (which basically means Intec these days) are extremely stiff laterally, as the heels are held by retractable lateral pins.

I'm running the F2 Titanflex, and as I said before my 224s are pretty soft.  I can drive my back knee into my front leg Kelly-style if I want.  But yes, still not too surfy.

[dhamann]

somethings got to give. understanding needs and wants can be difficult. we need to listen to our body, but we want to have it all. compromise has to occur somewhere to meet our objective. what is that? hardboots on a 26.6 waist 163 at 225lbs and a mondo 31 with +21/+6 angles? i'm not sure that would solve anything other than confirming an equally poor experience as to renting equipment.

hardboot binding angles typically start at +40 to +45 both front and rear.

softboot angles typically max out around 36+ for most.

deviations from this have been tried and it can work for some, but not likely. how's the body feel about it, regardless of technique? generally, that's first for me. i'm a size 12 street shoe 200+lbs and tried hardboots on a 26.5 waist bx board once. ONCE. this is not what the equipment was designed for and it was apparent upon riding it. this compromise didn't meet my objective where I was certain it would. wrong. understanding this is a good start. some great advise above and i think Neil has pretty much put a solution on a platter here, but there's some compromise. nobody needs, but it would be recommended that a proper boot/board/binding combo is sought. bending over for boots/bindings is a fact of snowboarding. skiing is the other option. the forces put on the body while snowboarding are likely equal to or greater than the fact of bending over to reach the boot/binding. it's the elephant in the room.

while sliding downhill, the greatest support and response will come from hardboots. a stiff set up with softboots can also be achieved. a surfy style and intentions while riding will be easier with a softboot set up. i think this is obvious. a more restrictive, but responsive ride will be achieved with hardboots. albeit, a surfy style can also be achieved with hardboots, but comes with practice, challenges and again, compromise.

a complete hardboot setup suited to your needs or a stiff step-on system to at least cut the bending over to address boot/binding in half. understanding the boots will wear out a lot faster than hardboots. both are going to cost money and the amount depends on where/how the compromises will be for each individual. welcome to the rabbit hole and gladly beat like a dead horse around here. good luck.

[philw]

"Surfy" - depends what you mean. I guess no boarding gives that, but it's probably not what's meant. A lot of hardbooters do have a very "stiff" style, at least from the sort of feedback I get from soft booters in helicopters. They expect me to be stiff, and I've seen people riding powder that way.

However... I use Backland AT [hard] boots with something like 40°/35° and I surf the terrain more than most on that. You can't control the lateral flex, but there's some from the binding interface. The main thing is the friction-free ankle with flex being controlled by Phantom springs. 

Doesn't solve the bending-over thing, although I would possibly argue that stretching to do that is a good exercise

[Neil Gendzwill]

18 minutes ago, philw said:

Doesn't solve the bending-over thing, although I would possibly argue that stretching to do that is a good exercise

Stretching does **** all if you've had a hip replacement or if you're dealing with an arthritic hip.  You've got the range of motion you've got.  In fact my surgeon advised me to stop stretching as I was just making the problem worse. I had a misguided physio who had me doing all kinds of stretching, nothing was improving ROM.

[Jack M]

8 hours ago, Aracan said:

Step-in plate bindings (which basically means Intec these days) are extremely stiff laterally, as the heels are held by retractable lateral pins.

I'm gonna respectfully disagree here.  F2 bindings, even the Race Titanium, have quite a bit of lateral flex.

[TimW]

10 hours ago, Jack M said:

I'm gonna respectfully disagree here.  F2 bindings, even the Race Titanium, have quite a bit of lateral flex.

They do, but intecs are significantly stiffer laterally then the bail version. And if I ride bails I ride them with the hard intec heel, the standard heel is much softer and will increase lateral flex even more (BTW UPZ do sell a lower profile stiffer 'race' heel, which will stiffen the bail setup)

Fore - aft I don't think my UPZ x12 (?) hardboots are stiffer than my softboots (Northwave domain), I think it is the opposite. The lateral flex is where the big difference is. 

@Alexs If you do decide on buying hardboots, I do recommend to also give a full alpine setup a go. It will not give you a surfy cutback, but the bottom turns are amazing!

 

[Alexs]

This all makes complete sense. 
Back in the 90's I was in Grenada Spain and the only rental available was a hard boot setup with alpine board. The plate bindings had bails and I loved the setup. Since then I've only ridden my Koflach superpipe boots with strap bindings on a K2 HC 166 free ride board. I'm looking for both worlds on 1 board and I don't think this will be possible.  
I keep thinking that the Koflachs are hard boots but I'm sure it's a far cry from hard boots  and plate bindings. (Especially Intec step in heels). 
My best bet I think will be to go with the Burton ion and step on bindings on my newer K2 Instrument 163. I ended up on this forum through Neil. I saw his fantastic you tube video of the binding release system he manufactured using a bike cable. This is exactly what I will end up doing.
 As for the surfy feeling that I am looking for. Neil hit the nail  right on the head. My back knee bends towards my front leg similar to Craig Kelly. But I just loved the responsiveness that I had back in Grenada Spain and can't get that out of my head when on the mountain. 
In the end, I will definitely end up with a complete alpine setup, as Tim recommended. 

 
 

[Alexs]

1 hour ago, Alexs said:

This all makes complete sense. 
Back in the 90's I was in Grenada Spain and the only rental available was a hard boot setup with alpine board. The plate bindings had bails and I loved the setup. Since then I've only ridden my Koflach superpipe boots with strap bindings on a K2 HC 166 free ride board. I'm looking for both worlds on 1 board and I don't think this will be possible.  
I keep thinking that the Koflachs are hard boots but I'm sure it's a far cry from hard boots  and plate bindings. (Especially Intec step in heels). 
My best bet I think will be to go with the Burton ion and step on bindings on my newer K2 Instrument 163. I ended up on this forum through Neil. I saw his fantastic you tube video of the binding release system he manufactured using a bike cable. This is exactly what I will end up doing.
 As for the surfy feeling that I am looking for. Neil hit the nail  right on the head. My back knee bends towards my front leg similar to Craig Kelly. But I just loved the responsiveness that I had back in Grenada Spain and can't get that out of my head when on the mountain. 
In the end, I will definitely end up with a complete alpine setup, as Tim recommended. 

 
 

*A complete alpine setup ALONG with the Burton Ion setup for free ride K2 board. 

[Jack M]

Glad we could help. Check out our classifieds for used gear if you want to ease into it, budget-wise.