Softboot vs Hardboot carving technique

[slapos]

Right so,

couple weeks ago there was a heated discussion on one of the snowboard groups about how does the softboot carving technique differs from shells carving technique.

i decided to put together a video that could show the difference.

bear in mind that I have not been riding softies for more the 8 years

hope you enjoy:

 

regards

 

L

[ShortcutToMoncton]

I’m excited to look at that later, but to clarify what equipment/stances you running?

 

[slapos]

Hi,

Hardboots - sense snowboards racecarve 174, 951 boots, 57 52, at 52 cm stance

Softies - adidas lexicon with nitro phantom carver bindings. 39 33 angles 55 cm stance. Nobile sbx 163 boards. 25.5 waist.

 

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by slapos

[Rob Stevens]

No noticeable difference there. 

You have to back your angles off pretty significantly on one of those setups to highlight anything meaningful.

@Xargomakes a good point in another thread that the difference isn’t best described by the boot, but by the angles of the bindings  

 With a forward stance in both feet, hinging at the hips can benefit lateral and fore / aft shifts of weight and pressure almost equally. With low angles (where the rear foot would be close to 10degrees of forward rotation or less) hip hinging effects on edge to edge movement are more pronounced than the riders ability to manipulate fore / aft changes via the same “bend” at the waist.

 Thus the whole “toilet seat” chirp you hear from high angle riders as a strike against low angle riders.

 I tried to get a conversation going on another thread touching on this… there are quite a few factors that go into a “pretty” heelside turn with low angles that can only be developed in a rider by recognizing certain very important advantages and limitations of anyone seeking improvement  

 

[slapos]

27 minutes ago, Rob Stevens said:

No noticeable difference there. 

 

That was the point.

Agree that binding angles will make more difference in the position/technique then anything else.

 

[Rob Stevens]

20 minutes ago, slapos said:

That was the point.

Agree that binding angles will make more difference in the position/technique then anything else.

 

I like that the point is that there’s no point. 

[slapos]

5 minutes ago, Rob Stevens said:

I like that the point is that there’s no point.

Amazing how far snowboarders can go just to troll other snowboarders

[ShortcutToMoncton]

That’s where I was going too. When I softboot carve, I’m doing it because I want all-mountain abilities. I know some people can hit jumps and ride off-piste with high stance angles, but I think that’s super niche for the most part. 

I’d love the same video but say 21/9 or something! In my experience once the front foot is in the 20s and the back foot in the low teens or single digits then it gets functionally difficult to just copy the same alpine stance  

[BlueB]

Boot, if set / flex matched right, makes close to 0 difference. It's mostly the angles. 

[fluxgame]

7 hours ago, slapos said:

hope you enjoy

Between the earworm of a song you used as a the backing soundtrack and being mesmerized by your smooth riding, I think I watched this a dozen times when you first released it. Count me in for a dozen more this afternoon, probably.

[slapos]

18 minutes ago, ShortcutToMoncton said:

That’s where I was going too. When I softboot carve, I’m doing it because I want all-mountain abilities. I know some people can hit jumps and ride off-piste with high stance angles, but I think that’s super niche for the most part. 

I’d love the same video but say 21/9 or something! In my experience once the front foot is in the 20s and the back foot in the low teens or single digits then it gets functionally difficult to just copy the same alpine stance  

If i have a chance to find a board wide enough to accommodate my feet at these angles i will check.

Accepted

Edited March 3, 2023 by slapos

[Rob Stevens]

18 minutes ago, BlueB said:

Boot, if set / flex matched right, makes close to 0 difference. It's mostly the angles. 

The big difference is what you’ve discovered over time in going for your CASI 4. 

When you use a conventional hard boot, the typical way to adjust lateral flex with a shell that doesn’t have that feature is where you try to slacken the hold on your plate binding to allow the shell to “rock” side to side. The problem there is one where you throw off your sense of balance by not being able to keep your feet flat on the board. Having the sole of your foot lift like that sends a “tilt” signal to your brain. We had this same issue in NoBoard / pow surf with the use of regular snowboard boots vs. something like a Sorel Caribou… with a more rigid ankle, the sole of the boot lifts off the top sheet. In the Caribou, you can manipulate your ankle joint in the desired way to maintain contact and control. 

I’m definitely interested in the Phantom “Slipper” boot and binding… while I’m not going to switch out of “convenience”, I’m curious as to how close the feel could be. My pal Joey is one of their main sponsored riders who says they’re very close, with the lateral adjustment in the shell being critical. 

[ShortcutToMoncton]

10 minutes ago, BlueB said:

Boot, if set / flex matched right, makes close to 0 difference. It's mostly the angles. 

I completely agree except to say that when you say set/flex matched, you probably mean that stiff alpine hardboots generally aren’t suited for low-angle riding, right? 

I’ve been watching the ongoing spread of AT “softer hard boots’” with much interest, including that article from a few years ago talking about redesigning the soft snowboard boot. I wish they were building around standard bail bindings though!

[Xargo]

2 hours ago, Rob Stevens said:

@Xargomakes a good point in another thread that the difference isn’t best described by the boot, but by the angles of the bindings 

Yeah I've been thinking a lot about all kinds of hybrid gear setups and also experimented with combining hardboot stuff with softboot stuff. Yesterday I rode this kind of setup and it was a blast. So good that I'm going to ride that again tomorrow:

I didn't expect that to work as well as it did since those bindings allow minimum angle of 25 so I had to go -25/+25 duck which I thought would be crazy but it was much better than I anticipated. Yesterday I first rode Contra with +47/+57 angles and when the conditions got more choppy I switched to that Ride Timeless and continued to have a blast. Those boots are setup pretty soft, so now I can kinda ride alpine and "softboots" without switching boots and get to have quick to use bindings for both boards.

2 hours ago, Rob Stevens said:

 With a forward stance in both feet, hinging at the hips can benefit lateral and fore / aft shifts of weight and pressure almost equally. With low angles (where the rear foot would be close to 10degrees of forward rotation or less) hip hinging effects on edge to edge movement are more pronounced than the riders ability to manipulate fore / aft changes via the same “bend” at the waist

Agreed and it's the edge to edge control I miss the most when riding forward stance. Of course I have ridden way way more with duck stance but to me a wide board with a duck stance feels much quicker edge to edge than a GS board with forward stance for an instance. I'm pretty new to riding alpine gear though. Only two seasons. The interesting thing is that I feel my duck stance riding has developed a lot after learning how to ride alpine gear and the most bizarre thing for me is that suddenly my duck switch riding also feels a lot easier even though I haven't practiced that at all. I guess it's because I have learned to use my hips better.

[BlueB]

31 minutes ago, ShortcutToMoncton said:

I completely agree except to say that when you say set/flex matched, you probably mean that stiff alpine hardboots generally aren’t suited for low-angle riding, right? 

Most of them you can ride unlocked, including some of the ski boots. Custom springs do wonders too. 

But then, there's also what Rob said - side to side ankle. 

[BlueB]

46 minutes ago, Rob Stevens said:

The big difference is what you’ve discovered over time in going for your CASI 4. 

When you use a conventional hard boot, the typical way to adjust lateral flex with a shell that doesn’t have that feature is where you try to slacken the hold on your plate binding to allow the shell to “rock” side to side. The problem there is one where you throw off your sense of balance by not being able to keep your feet flat on the board. Having the sole of your foot lift like that sends a “tilt” signal to your brain. We had this same issue in NoBoard / pow surf with the use of regular snowboard boots vs. something like a Sorel Caribou… with a more rigid ankle, the sole of the boot lifts off the top sheet. In the Caribou, you can manipulate your ankle joint in the desired way to maintain contact and control. 

At L3 prep, already

Yes, you are mostly right. However, it's exactly that rolling of the ankle, combined with flexing, at load, that causes me great discomfort. It's been one of the major reasons for my permanent exile into h/boots. I find that plastic plate bindings twist enough that you don't need to loosen the bails too much. Also, there's big difference between just standing on your surf board and being straped in bindings. When your front foot starts to lose balance, you kind of feel it in the back foot too. But yes, more feel/adjustment with loose ankle. 

All of this has way less to with carving discussed here, compared to all the L4 exam stuff. 

[Rob Stevens]

42 minutes ago, BlueB said:

 Also, there's big difference between just standing on your surf board and being straped in bindings. 

There really isn’t. 

When you’re “in position”, the differences in good snow are not apparent. With loose ankles, you can stay in position, as the ability to keep your foot flat expands your envelope of movement. Once your foot tilts, contact is lessened. If you have a rigid ankle, your sole tilts from the top sheet with even the slightest move of your centre of mass from directly over top of your base of support. 

This highlights one of the shortcomings of stiff boots in freeriding and powder… even being slightly off centre in a less-than-perfect position usually results in a bad look. 

Taking it back to the OP, there are big differences in how the board is edged in low vs. high binding angle situations. Just as big a factor is what you have to contend with as a margin for error… I haven’t really known any riders that looked as effortless and fluid freeriding in hardboots, as when they pushed the limits of the balance envelope, they had to make awkward “strength” moves to stay on their feet, rather than more subtle ankle adjustments that could have had the same stabilizing effect. 

Edited March 3, 2023 by Rob Stevens

[dredman]

Just what style are we comparing?
 

Knapton style, gate racers, boarder cross, soft boot carving like @crackaddictand @StrangeFuture808, Bomber Style, Skwal, and across both seas styles

Carving is cool. 

[Shred Gruumer]

38 minutes ago, dredman said:

Carving is cool. 

What he said....

 

So far I'm at 36F, 21R... anything more was wasted..

[Rob Stevens]

2 hours ago, dredman said:

Just what style are we comparing?
 

Knapton style, gate racers, boarder cross, soft boot carving like @crackaddictand @StrangeFuture808, Bomber Style, Skwal, and across both seas styles

Carving is cool. 

I guess we took this from “hard vs. soft” to “high vs. low”. 

So that makes it an exercise of observing what the lower angle soft boot guys you mention do, along with the SBX racers and anyone where the back foot is beyond… say… 20 degrees rear. 

Once you build that wall, I’d suggest that you look at equipment, the fitness and size of the rider. You should also look at the pitch. Where size is concerned, there’s a pretty big difference in the way @crackaddict approaches the slope compared to someone like @StrangeFuture808  While they both prefer boards at around 30 cm WW, their sizes make for very different “styles”. Ryan is another matter altogether… he says himself that he’s very good in his own, well-defined arena. So much so that he seemed dissatisfied with himself at Turner. It was clear that the first two were more comfortable carving on steeper terrain.

it’s also notable that our Canadian SB pals went for equipment changes (James at least) on the second day. This highlights the limitations of very specialized equipment when it comes to freeriding, even when the angles of the bindings are low. In that way, if the gear holds you well in a hard carving turn (I mean proper hard) it’s probably too stiff in the ankle and “pointy” in board construction for doing what I do, which is “hit up the middle”. On anything up to a blue run, my carving is as performance oriented, but take it to the steep groomers and it’s very difficult for me. On the other side of that, I was walking away from them in bumpier terrain.

Slice this matter up further and you have to examine my size and fitness vs someone like James. What we are able to do and what allows us to do it would be very different. In short, I’d have to go faster, have more room, be stronger and have dynamite equipment to incline like James vs. angulating as I might in the absence of any of those four things I mention.

This last point is a rabbit hole I invite people to go down and the reason why I’m insistent that a detailed look at the rider, equipment and how they currently perform is an absolute must for any targeted feedback that doesn’t devolve into guessing.

Yes Dave! “Carving is cool”, so let’s “Just riiiide Maaaan”! I’m always down for that too!

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Shred Gruumer said:

What he said....

 

So far I'm at 36F, 21R... anything more was wasted..

Waisted?

[Shred Gruumer]

5 minutes ago, Rob Stevens said:

Waisted

Everything starts to decline...need lateral force from a soft shelled boot ain't happening...

Heal and toe moves off the edge.. feels like tipping over a picnic table

That's all I meant..

 

[Rob Stevens]

1 minute ago, Shred Gruumer said:

Everything starts to decline...need lateral force from a soft shelled boot ain't happening...

Heal and toe moves off the edge.. feels like tipping over a picnic table

That's all I meant..

 

Maybe you just need to get “waisted”?

[zyzgerry]

6 hours ago, Shred Gruumer said:

So far I'm at 36

What is your board brand and name? Looks so cool!

[st_lupo]

14 hours ago, slapos said:

Amazing how far snowboarders can go just to troll other snowboarders

That is some Nietzche level trolling.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

9 hours ago, Rob Stevens said:

This highlights the limitations of very specialized equipment when it comes to freeriding, even when the angles of the bindings are low. In that way, if the gear holds you well in a hard carving turn (I mean proper hard) it’s probably too stiff in the ankle and “pointy” in board construction for doing what I do, which is “hit up the middle”. On anything up to a blue run, my carving is as performance oriented, but take it to the steep groomers and it’s very difficult for me. On the other side of that, I was walking away from them in bumpier terrain.

Hello Rob, out of curiosity what is your preferred board/bindings/stance/angles? And what do mean by hit up the middle? I’m trying to figure out how your riding is different. 

I’m also super interested in a do-it-all type of board & setup, but personally I no longer have the opportunity to ride off piste and/or out of bounds as much as I did 15 or 20 years ago. So for me it’s probably more nostalgia than a reality.