Liner investment for the long haul

[AcousticBoarder]

So I have spent a lot of time trying to get my feet happy and they are about 85% there. Stance is dialed in nicely, upgraded the upz boots to the newer buckles, custom footbeds. Biggest issue I've had is with the fit of the liner. I put in many hours trying numerous liners and other options and eventually made my way to the intuition pro wrap. My specific issue is that I have a narrow heel and high arches/instep. Too loose and my heel lifts, but just beyond that it gets too tight and I restrict circulation to my toes. 

My pro wrap which I got beginning of last season I can already feel packing out and while it is much better than anything else I've tried it is still not perfect. In colder weather or if I tighten just a bit further my toes go numb and it is not uncommon to have to take a break. 

So I am thinking of upgrading to something completely custom later this season. I am a bit concerned on a couple things though and am seeking recommendations.

What is out there? I am currently thinking zip-fits but am not sure I'd there might be something better

What stiffness is considered good on average for carving? 

Is this actually likely to fix the issue completely or am I probably at the point of diminishing returns? 

I've heard some custom liners like injected foam are super cold. How do zipfits or others compair to intuitions? 

How long do they tend to hold up/ until they pack out? Can they be refit to new boots or after they pack out? 

Thanks for your responses! 

 

[Mr.E]

Did you get your.linets molded by a pro? Thick or doubled toe caps go a long way, as does selective padding in areas that need some space (like your arch). I'm guessing you are pinching those places.

Intuition liners are generally one of the warmer.options on your list.

Zip or Foam liners will probably last you a bit longer, but can be colder and stiffer (depending on the specific liners you are comparing).

In general, the liner is fairly consumable. I generally get a few seasons out of Intuition then replace.

[AcousticBoarder]

13 hours ago, Mr.E said:

Did you get your.linets molded by a pro? Thick or doubled toe caps go a long way, as does selective padding in areas that need some space (like your arch). I'm guessing you are pinching those places.

Intuition liners are generally one of the warmer.options on your list.

Zip or Foam liners will probably last you a bit longer, but can be colder and stiffer (depending on the specific liners you are comparing).

In general, the liner is fairly consumable. I generally get a few seasons out of Intuition then replace.

Yeah I had then professionally done when I special ordered them. Toe caps (I have zero toe squshing problems) and smashed the hell out of the top of the wrap over the instep to make as much space as possible. As I mentioned, it's a huge improvement over previous trials and errors, but still have not found that "fits like a snug slipper" feel yet.

I agree it seems to be pinching still, usually only happens on the mountain (not while wearing at home) and after an hour or so when it's cold is when I start noticing it. Warmer conditions it takes longer. 

[ursle]

https://www.sidas.com/en/bootwear/242-pu-transfoam-flex.html

This custom foamed liner and orthotics are as good as it gets.

[trailertrash]

If you can stand the cold, the foam is great. They also last a long time. I think I got mine in 2012. I have used the same liners over 2 Deluxe shells. Living at a resort, I ride a fair amount. These liners are once and done, no adjustment really (to the foam). Get the Lenz heated socks to go with them.

I also just got the Zip fits, the nice thing about the cork Zipfits is that you can add or remove cork at any time during the life of the liner. I am still in the process of dialing mine in. They do take a bit of trial and error, meaning you have to add cork and then ride them. This may take multiple trips to your bootfitter. I think they are warmer, there's more material around the toes than on my Nordica foam liners. 

[pokkis]

I molded my Zipfits, quite simple due you dont warm liners but shells. I put shells to my sauna for 15 minutes and then just put liners to shells and feet in. That's all.

Been riding them now one season and never felt need to add cork. But now planning to add, just for curiosity purposes to see how that will change things.

[AcousticBoarder]

23 hours ago, pokkis said:

I molded my Zipfits, quite simple due you dont warm liners but shells. I put shells to my sauna for 15 minutes and then just put liners to shells and feet in. That's all.

Been riding them now one season and never felt need to add cork. But now planning to add, just for curiosity purposes to see how that will change things.

So the shels themselves are actually molded too? Interesting. Wonder if that might help too as the upzs while have better heel hold for me than the deeluxe, they don't have much space over the instep. 

Also sounds like rumors are true that foam is cold. Would definitely need to take into budgeting heated socks/footbeds. Rather not as I know my feet get cold before anything else. 

What zipfits did you get? 

Anyone been riding the zipfits for an extended period of time? Wondering how many seasons I can expect from them and regular fitting returns to consider. 

[pokkis]

I have GrandPrix ones. Been riding them as cold i usually ride, and dont feel them colder than Palaus, -20 Celcius.

They should last longer than norm thermos.

Molding, shells dont form due recommended temp in real is less than 100C. I use also heated boot bag so i warm them every day to 60+C, it is nice to put warm boots on on morning, and that takes care also that they are dry.

[Beckmann AG]

5 hours ago, AcousticBoarder said:

Also sounds like rumors are true that foam is cold. Would definitely need to take into budgeting heated socks/footbeds. Rather not as I know my feet get cold before anything else. 

Almost any shoe will be cold if you restrict circulation.

In order to properly foam a set of liners, the tech should provide clearance over each of the prominent veins of the feet. This is usually done by taping something over the veins. Thick yarn, gummi worms, surgical tubing, Fettuccini al dente, etc.  If this is not done, the foam, as it expands and then sets, will flatten said veins, and the customer will have cold feet.

At which point the shop can sell a pair of battery powered socks for a tidy profit; a sale already front-loaded by the reputation HP liners have for performance at the expense of warmth.

(It is possible to reduce the squeeze of a HP foam liner  to some extent, but that requires a hypo filled with acetone, and skill, and patience).

 

From your earlier description, you have two problems:

Too much instep, and not enough ankle. 

Assuming you can find a qualified shop, the HP foam liner might be wonderful for your application, as you can pump a lot of foam into the ankle pocket, meanwhile putting less into the liner tongue. Assuming you opt for the liners with injectable tongues.

That same qualified shop should be able to punch the instep area of your boot shell tongue for more clearance.

There really is no comparison between HP foamers and the monolithic heat moldable units, as the latter are designed for a comfort fit, rather than making up for a drastic mismatch in contour/volume.

One possible issue with the Zip Fit goo is that it remains pliable, and the greater mass needed to secure your heel may simply squish around from place to place. If, on the other hand, your feet were already a good match for your shells, the Zip would be an easy choice given the option to add goo as needed.

 

Either Zips or HPs will last a very long time, assuming they're well cared for and kept away from things with gnawing tendencies.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Beckmann AG

[BobD]

Every liner packs in. Did you mold the liner with extra lightweight socks? You can then move up through sock weights as the liner packs in. If the liners and boots were a good fit last season, you would have been back to a very tight fit after the liners expanded a bit over the summer. The liners should not have packed in too much this early in the season unless the shells are too big, or the liners too thin. 

Edited December 18, 2019 by BobD

[trailertrash]

18 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

In order to properly foam a set of liners, the tech should provide clearance over each of the prominent veins of the feet. This is usually done by taping something over the veins. Thick yarn, gummi worms, surgical tubing, Fettuccini al dente, etc.  If this is not done, the foam, as it expands and then sets, will flatten said veins, and the customer will have cold feet.

How many people do you have first hand experience with this working on? Sounds a little bit like bullshitski to me. There's no insulation on the toes of my foam liners. I don't care what you do to your veins it's not going to matter. Also, you have one shot to get this right, one. My heated socks work in my ski boots, snowboard HB's, softboots, moto boots... etc. 

 

[Beckmann AG]

5 hours ago, trailertrash said:

How many people do you have first hand experience with this working on? Sounds a little bit like bullshitski to me. There's no insulation on the toes of my foam liners. I don't care what you do to your veins it's not going to matter.

 

Maybe get your ears recalibrated?

I've been party to more than a few liner jobs. Some of which were horribly botched on account of corner cutting/haste.

Cold toes/feet have several origins, chief among them restricted circulation/lack of capillary refill associated with excess pressure over the instep. In most, (but not all) cases I've seen, reduction/removal of pressure either restores or greatly improves warmth.

Unless I'm mistaken, your extremities run to the cold side, and that makes you a good candidate for heated socks, regardless of which liner you use.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Beckmann AG

[lonbordin]

4 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

, chief among them restricted circulation/lack of capillary refill associated with excess pressure over the instep. In most, (but not all) cases I've seen, reduction/removal of pressure either restores or greatly improves warmth.

Oh man... You're not whistling Dixie... My right foot toes used to get a bit cool late in a session. Not the case after our recent session... I underestimated the effects of my pressure on the instep issue. 

[trailertrash]

17 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

Maybe get your ears recalibrated?

I've been party to more than a few liner jobs. Some of which were horribly botched on account of corner cutting/haste.

Cold toes/feet have several origins, chief among them restricted circulation/lack of capillary refill associated with excess pressure over the instep. In most, (but not all) cases I've seen, reduction/removal of pressure either restores or greatly improves warmth.

Unless I'm mistaken, your extremities run to the cold side, and that makes you a good candidate for heated socks, regardless of which liner you use.

You haven't answered my question. How many people do you have first hand experience in this vein tracing method while foamed working on?

Edited December 19, 2019 by trailertrash

[Colozeus]

On 12/19/2019 at 9:34 AM, trailertrash said:

You haven't answered my question. How many people do you have first hand experience in this vein tracing method while foamed working on?

Trust me, a lot! I wouldn't question any of Beckmann's knowledge. He helped me tremendously with my setup. Everything from binding angles, cant, riding technique to boot fitment and footbeds. The vein method worked for me; when i molded my intuition liners i taped pieces of foam

to all of my problem areas, including the veins around the instep. I never even met Beckmann in person. he even offered up a free consultation to discuss my issues. That being said, it's most likely that ankles vary from person to person. Perhaps some people have "kankles" (fat ankles) with enough of a fat layer to not require vein tracing.  Thanks for all the previous help @Beckmann AG

 

[AcousticBoarder]

I had not heard of the vein tracing and taping method before, I will definitely have to look into that! How effective would that be on my current intuitions? My other thought is money is a bit tight right now so if I could push it off until later that would be great.

[ursle]

9 hours ago, AcousticBoarder said:

I had not heard of the vein tracing and taping method before, I will definitely have to look into that! How effective would that be on my current intuitions? My other thought is money is a bit tight right now so if I could push it off until later that would be great.

I like it, my last ski boots(20 years ago) and Alpine snowboard boots both have hard custom foam and are cold, I put the chemical pack on top of the liner over my toes and used boot gloves.

Because with the hard foam, there's zero allowance for blood flow, this is a no brainer, thanks Beckman AG.

Intuition liners aren't solid hard foam, they give a bit, but I'd definitely pad the  vein coming down the inside of the ankles around the foot and back up the outside for better blood flow, warm feet.

You could reheat your liners with the padding in place for free, rice, a sock a microwave and a huge pot of boiling water to heat the shell, hold it over the water in a towel.

 

[trailertrash]

On 12/21/2019 at 2:16 PM, Colozeus said:

The vein method worked for me; when i molded my intuition liners i taped pieces of foam

to all of my problem areas, including the veins around the instep. 

I am talking about foam injected liners, not what you have. Basically, no one has done this on foam injected liners.

[Colozeus]

17 hours ago, trailertrash said:

I am talking about foam injected liners, not what you have. Basically, no one has done this on foam injected liners.

Really? Have you asked every single human that has gotten foam injected liners to confirm?

@Beckmann AG Your inbox appears to be full or i can't send you messages. Do you mind sharing Eric Ward's number with me again when you have a chance?

[MUD]

On 12/22/2019 at 8:35 PM, trailertrash said:

I am talking about foam injected liners, not what you have. Basically, no one has done this on foam injected liners.

The shop that does foam liners locally confirmed Beckmanns experience. If you think about it, it makes sense. This was a couple of years ago I talked with them though. And we only hit -20F a few times a year, so there is that going for us. 

 

[Dusty Bottle]

On 12/15/2019 at 9:55 AM, AcousticBoarder said:

.......My specific issue is that I have a narrow heel and high arches/instep. Too loose and my heel lifts, but just beyond that it gets too tight and I restrict circulation to my toes....

 

I'm no expert, but I re-read your original post and like me, you may be overcompensating in other areas, when maybe all you're trying to accomplish is to keep your heels down.  I have very small ankles and high insteps, so I had the same issue, before remembering the ankle inserts that came with my Driver X softies.  They're "V shaped and pretty thick, so I experimented with differing thicknesses of the same type material and some Velcro on the outside of my liners and now my heel feels very solid.  I no longer tighten my boots to the point of cutting off circulation.  I'm no orthopedic specialist, but I do understand spending money on what works for someone else, may not fix your particular problem.  Good luck and I hope my experience helps!