dingbat Posted March 19, 2018 Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Beckmann AG said: @Dingbat, if I got anything wrong in the previous, by all means offer correction. Not so much wrong as there are a couple holes, some in plain view. It's not my place to fill them in as I'm not sure if the knowledge has been made public or not. What I can tell you is we have a Borvig of similar design and vintage, had to tear it down due to what was found at the Sugarloaf tear down. We had no signs of the same issue. Replaced associated parts with all new in fresh overhauled assemblies. Experienced same failure within one season of operation. Our lift did not roll back. Age of affected components had zero to due with the failure. Interesting, no? To be fair, the same part failed in a similar fashion. The reasons and circumstances that led to it failing may or may not be completely different. Edited March 19, 2018 by dingbat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted March 19, 2018 Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 2 hours ago, skategoat said: We accept the danger of skiing or snowboarding. I willingly engage in it knowing full well that I could be injured or killed. When I ride a ski lift, I don't sign off on it possibly falling out of the sky. That, and it's a red herring argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbat Posted March 19, 2018 Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 3 hours ago, skategoat said: We accept the danger of skiing or snowboarding. I willingly engage in it knowing full well that I could be injured or killed. When I ride a ski lift, I don't sign off on it possibly falling out of the sky. Have you ever read the standard to see what responsibilities you have and risks you accept when choosing to be a passenger on an aerial lift? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted March 19, 2018 Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 4 minutes ago, dingbat said: Have you ever read the standard to see what responsibilities you have and risks you accept when choosing to be a passenger on an aerial lift? Do you accept the risk that an elevator might crash before you get inside? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonbordin Posted March 19, 2018 Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 I think the question of inspections and the qualifications of those who are the inspectors are a real issue for me. Around these parts it's the same single person that does the state's elevator and carny ride inspections. It's a paper tiger inspection. The hill OPS are the only experts... We had a lift motor burst into flames twice this season... Tight margins and unhealthy risk appetites. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west carven Posted March 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 howdy would it be to much for us as skiers/boarders to have a maintenance report on our ski lift and the age of parts and how often it gets inspected by the like said "state's elevator and carny ride inspections". would you get on carny ride that could harm you or kill you. we put our lives in the hands of who?... maybe we should demand reports as to how safe this thing we ride like reports for health food inspections and have it posted on the ski lift shacks. maybe once before ski season and the middle of ski season... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted March 19, 2018 Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, west carven said: howdy would it be to much for us as skiers/boarders to have a maintenance report on our ski lift and the age of parts and how often it gets inspected by the like said "state's elevator and carny ride inspections". would you get on carny ride that could harm you or kill you. we put our lives in the hands of who?... maybe we should demand reports as to how safe this thing we ride like reports for health food inspections and have it posted on the ski lift shacks. maybe once before ski season and the middle of ski season... What happened to live free or die ? Some inspections are comprehensive but i guess it depends on where you live . Perhaps you best insurance would be to question your state authority in a "registered letter" questioning the particular lift or resort you have questions about and as long as you have the record of you letter being accepted you are entitled to a reply. That reply has someones name on it and then you have someone in authority that is responsible. I think if you were to ask Jack M. a warning sign is a liftie on the tower with a hammer. Where i ride you can't operate without annual inspection. Edited March 19, 2018 by lowrider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbat Posted March 19, 2018 Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Jack Michaud said: Do you accept the risk that an elevator might crash before you get inside? Are you answering my question with a question? Do you accept the risk that a roller coaster may malfunction before you ride it? Do you keep your hands and feet inside the car at all times until the ride comes to a complete stop? Yes, I accept that there is some risk that an elevator may crash when I use one. How can I not? It's a box on rails in a vertical shaft that has it's movement controlled by complex mechanical systems. Even if the techs and inspectors have everything sewn up tight the exterminator my be slacking. My question above was sheer curiosity piqued by the comment of not signing off on accepting risk of the lift "falling out of the sky". Most people don't realize that there are sections in the standards, adopted into law in some areas, that regulate what is expected of passengers on a lift. I was curious if he was aware of what he is signing off on. These past couple seasons I've heard an increased rumbling about aging lifts and it concerns me. Yes, there is a correlation between age and hours/wear, but I think it's important to not focus too closely solely on age of equipment. It is one facet of many that determines the likelihood of a lift failure, not the least of which is who is maintaining and operating the equipment. Edited March 20, 2018 by dingbat 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west carven Posted March 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 howdy he died what he loved doing... I guess there is a risk in whatever... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skategoat Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 5 hours ago, dingbat said: Have you ever read the standard to see what responsibilities you have and risks you accept when choosing to be a passenger on an aerial lift? Yes, I have read the back of my lift ticket. I accept risks that are inherent and integral to the sport. Chair lift failure is not an inherent risk, no matter what it says on the waiver. Case law and the history of settlements in those cases would seem to support my argument. The same would apply to an elevator accident. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbat Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 4 minutes ago, skategoat said: Yes, I have read the back of my lift ticket. I accept risks that are inherent and integral to the sport. Chair lift failure is not an inherent risk, no matter what it says on the waiver. Case law and the history of settlements in those cases would seem to support my argument. The same would apply to an elevator accident. Not the back of the ticket, the standard: https://webstore.ansi.org/RecordDetail.aspx?sku=ANSI+B77.1-2017 Not sure how Canada does it, but in the US the ANSI standard is usually adopted by a state into law possibly with some state specific addendums. Though short, and somewhat comical, there are some sections regarding passenger responsibilities that just about no one who rides a chairlift is aware of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 I agree with skategoat about inherent risk. You don't really accept the risk of riding an elevator or a roller coaster or chairlift. If that thing malfunctions and seriously injures you, the owner/operator and maybe manufacturer are going to be on the hook for some serious compensation. Or at least you will try. Accepting risk IMO means you will not even attempt to sue anybody else if something goes wrong. 1 hour ago, dingbat said: These past couple seasons I've heard an increased rumbling about aging lifts and it concerns me. Yes, there is a correlation between age and hours/wear, but I think it's important to not focus too closely solely on age of equipment. It is one facet of many that determines the likelihood of a lift failure, not the least of which is who is maintaining and operating the equipment. I agree and I was saying something similar earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbat Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 36 minutes ago, Jack Michaud said: I agree with skategoat about inherent risk. You don't really accept the risk of riding an elevator or a roller coaster or chairlift. If that thing malfunctions and seriously injures you, the owner/operator and maybe manufacturer are going to be on the hook for some serious compensation. Or at least you will try. Accepting risk IMO means you will not even attempt to sue anybody else if something goes wrong. I agree and I was saying something similar earlier. Appologies for not being able to pull up the text from within, but they go out of their way to touch on it in the purpose and scope. "Inherent risk" is exactly the term that is used. I get what you are saying in regards to negligence etc. Merely curious about awareness of what you are agreeing to when getting on a lift. Honestly, outside of Massachusetts post B77.1-2011 I'm not 100% sure myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 That's very vague. Inherent risk while "riding" the lift could mean a number of things. The lift de-roping or rolling back are very different things than falling off the chair by your own carelessness. These are very far apart on that spectrum of possibilities. This section of that document does nothing to imply that we accept the risk of a major lift malfunction. Nobody in their right mind would accept (really accept) that risk if a resort explicitly made them aware that it existed, and made them sign off on it. That resort would soon go out of business. Whatever legal boilerplate they try to bury in some obscure state law or in 0.5 point print on the back of a ticket, nobody accepts that risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbat Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 Depends entirely under which circumstances a lift de-ropes or rolls back. There's a reason that wind and weather are noted in the log. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skategoat Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 1 hour ago, dingbat said: Not the back of the ticket, the standard: https://webstore.ansi.org/RecordDetail.aspx?sku=ANSI+B77.1-2017 Not sure how Canada does it, but in the US the ANSI standard is usually adopted by a state into law possibly with some state specific addendums. Though short, and somewhat comical, there are some sections regarding passenger responsibilities that just about no one who rides a chairlift is aware of. We have the Technical Safety and Standards Act (TSSA) that governs safety standards in Ontario. It's primarily meant for operators not the public. They're the guys who do the safety inspections that lowrider alluded to. Once in a while, they issue a media release that nobody reads with safety tips like "wear your mittens". In Ontario, I don't know of any laws that govern behaviour that is specific to ski lifts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 5 minutes ago, dingbat said: Depends entirely under which circumstances a lift de-ropes or rolls back. There's a reason that wind and weather are noted in the log. Resort is responsible for operating their lift in tolerable wind/weather. Anyway, I know Sugarloaf was sued and that they compensated victims. My mother did not participate in the lawsuit although she was invited, but did receive direct compensation from the resort. And Maine has laws that are quite favorable to ski resorts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbat Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 Jack, I am in no way, shape, or form trying to defend the deropement or rollback at Sugarloaf. Now, are you honestly going to tell me that no one has suddenly been caught off guard by the weather? In New England? At a ski mountain with it's peak in the clouds and it's own little micro climate? The hill I worked at has a weatherman monitoring weather for us full time. Every once in a while there would be a call to the front desk for a freak squal or lightning event. Usually we'd get a comfortable 15-20 minute heads-up, but I've seen it as little as 30-40 seconds. I've seen a chair deropement from a freak gust right in front of me. So are lift operators required to be able to predict the weather better than teams of professionals or be liable for negligence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khoward Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 From a Board of Directors standpoint, what questions should we be asking? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skategoat Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 10 minutes ago, khoward said: From a Board of Directors standpoint, what questions should we be asking? Is our maintenance and inspection regimen absolutely unimpeachable? Do we have an independent body ensuring that we meet standards or do we self-police? That's what I'd be asking. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbat Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, skategoat said: Is our maintenance and inspection regimen absolutely unimpeachable? Do we have an independent body ensuring that we meet standards or do we self-police? That's what I'd be asking. Great questions. I'd say the closest thing to an independent body or self policing in the state's right now are the companies that insure the ski areas. They are the ones on the hook for paying settlements etc. The hill I worked at had a great relationship with their insurer. While they had our back in a suit, they were also extremely proactive in helping us mitigate risk and make our operations as safe as possible. How do you motivate the owners and maintenance staff? That is the critical question. The culture of our maintainence staff also went a long way in the quality of the upkeep of our lifts. Funny thing was I don't think they gave a fig about the passengers. What seemed to motivate them was reputation, bragging rights, and the pride of keeping a machine. I think they may have also enjoyed basking in the disappointment of guests given the excuse to shut down a lift for a safety concern. Cranky Yankees, but hey, whatever works right? Edited March 20, 2018 by dingbat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonbordin Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 1 hour ago, skategoat said: Is our maintenance and inspection regimen absolutely unimpeachable? Do we have an independent body ensuring that we meet standards or do we self-police? That's what I'd be asking. I agree. I'd add that there should be inspection logs that are signed and dated by the designated resort inspector(s) (make sure they have a training budget!) then verified and signed and dated by the resort GM (Chief Executive). You'd be amazed, from a compliance perspective, how motivated executives/managers are when they have to sign and verify the work of those under them... they might even start to show up for the inspections themselves. Like @dingbat suggested intrinsic motivation is far more powerful than extrinsic motivation. I'd hope the board is familiar with Professor Ariely's work. A great start would be to read Predictably Irrational. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted March 28, 2018 Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 Okay, so to be clear, sugarloaf has possibly the worst record in the industry other than the issues that everyone had with Yans. Lift age, it’s more about maintenance and when it was rebuilt. Lift 1 at Sunday river is a good example, it’s 30 years old, sort of. It was a Yan, then those started failing horribly so they had poma come in and put in their grips and accel/decell system. Since then they have replaced the chairs and a whole slew of stuff. Derail? That happens, it’s typically worse on older lifts that don’t have any sort of rope catch. rollback, well, it’s only happened a couple times. On a borvig there’s supposed to be an “anti-rollback dog” on everything else I can think of it should dump at least one brake if not a few. That to me indicates either multiple brake failures or, more likely, shit was bypassed so the brakes didn’t dump. The video it looks like a recent dopplmayr (sp?) sugarloaf, don’t know what it was that rolled back but if it was a borvig it was gross negligence. As the most annoying issue I’ve ever had to deal with was a friggin’ anti-rollback dog that wouldn’t lift so I had to listen to it slamming a bullwheel all day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted March 28, 2018 Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 If shit happens extensive documentation and competent staff are about the only things that can protect the owner as well as patrons. When riding dodgy lifts my kids carry a rope in their backpack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west carven Posted April 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2018 howdy one from the top and one from the lift... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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