Impatient curiosity on setting lift/cant on F2 Titanium bindings

[SunSurfer]

I've not gone beyond 6 degrees with my F2s. A washer system such as you describe may well resolve the issue. Changing my boots to UPZ RC 10s has effectively given me more heel lift. Building 3 degree wedges to go under the toe and heel blocks of my TD3s allows me to experiment with higher lift angles still.

[Ondrej]

Can I ask one more thing within this thread?

I have now set up my intec titaniums in a way that I have both heel lift and inwards cant on the backfoot, and plain flat on frontfoot. (this one pair of lift plates and one pair of cant plates came in the package)

My issue is that there are the total of 8 screws, from which 2 seem to be short, 4 mid length and 2 longer ones... And while it looks fine everywhere else, those two long screws on the heel back (where it's highest) don't go very deep into the threads. Particularly the one at the highest point goes perhaps some 5-6mm in...

It this enough or are there supposed to be any longer screws? I suppose I'd have to get them somewhere else as I don't have any longer ones.

Thanks

[jburk]

The F2 manual says you need at least 5mm of thread, and while that doesn't look like much, if they say so it must be enough.  I've also measured when using the short screws with no lift or cant for the maximum (so that it won't extend past the t-nut and dent the board), and the max looks like 11mm.

In the second attachment I have 5mm of thread showing; it really looks short, but I've got 15 days or more with this setup with no issues (at least 120,000 ft of vertical).

[daveo]

On Tue Jan 09 2018 at 7:08 AM, jim_s said:

 I presently run the old Burton 'Unicant' disk under the rear binding

Looking to sell the unicants? 

[BlueB]

On 09/01/2018 at 3:21 AM, Aracan said:

Also, the Snowpros have been out of production for a long, long time. My second pair lasted significantly shorter (part of the lenght adjustment slide broke on the rear heel broke) than my first pair, and I ask myself if that was because they had spent so long on the shelf. I'd stay away from them.

The Snowpros are the only bindings I've never managed to brake any part. I had my 3 pairs for about 10-12 years. Rode them as my all-mountain bindings while I still rode TD2 for carving. Now i use Snowpro for carving and RS Carve / Proflex for freeride... 

Edited April 17, 2018 by BlueB

[Atom Ant]

I ride F2s.   Current heel lift is in the 7 degree range if memory serves,  and toe lift is around 4.6.  This is with UPZs. 

Maybe not for most,  but works for me.   I find most racers prefer a lot of heel lift.    

[Ondrej]

23 hours ago, jburk said:

The F2 manual says you need at least 5mm of thread, and while that doesn't look like much, if they say so it must be enough.  I've also measured when using the short screws with no lift or cant for the maximum (so that it won't extend past the t-nut and dent the board), and the max looks like 11mm.

In the second attachment I have 5mm of thread showing; it really looks short, but I've got 15 days or more with this setup with no issues (at least 120,000 ft of vertical).

Thanks for good answer and posting the manual. It seems like it is the 5mm they talk about. Those screws are original, so I assume as long as it's possible to use both lift and cant on same foot, it has to be that way.

 

[jim_s]

Thingiverse seems to have fixed their Customizer tool, so configurable Things are working again. The initial version of the F2 Binding Shims are posted here: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2865271

Its a bit of a complicated design, so the Customizer will usually take a few minutes to render it, at best. At worst, it will time out - the Customizer's responsiveness is inversely proportional to how many people are trying to us the underlying engine at the same time. (There also seems to be some relationship with how much of a rush you seem to be in - some kind of AI or something at work, that seems to intuit your impatience and frustration levels, and then works to help you build up your tolerance to ever-increasing levels of these...)

I'd welcome any and all feedback on this - from the basic design, to the available parameter fields ,etc.

I have an updated version in the works that will allow printing 2 sets of shims at once (each with their own set of customizable parameters), so that people using printing services (where they charge by the print) can combine 2 sets into a single print. I'll update the Thingiverse file, or upload it as a new Thing, when I get that finished.

Bear in mind if the Customizer is not responsive enough, that you can download the .scad file from that Thingiverse page, then also download OpenSCAD (free), directly manipulate the file in OpenSCAD, and generate your STL file w/o having to use the Thingiverse Customizer. (I'd personally recommend this approach, as its typically faster to try out different parameters.) If anyone goes this route, and has any questions about how to customize the parameters in OpenSCAD, just let me know.

[digger jr]

On 3/16/2018 at 10:23 AM, Atom Ant said:

I ride F2s.   Current heel lift is in the 7 degree range if memory serves,  and toe lift is around 4.6.  This is with UPZs. 

Maybe not for most,  but works for me.   I find most racers prefer a lot of heel lift.    

How do you determine you’re at 7 or 4.6?

[jim_s]

@digger jr - just based on the shims (ie, not taking any internal boot ramp angle into account), the stock lift shim gives about 3.5-4 degrees of lift, and the stock cant shim gives about 3 degrees of cant. Obviously, any lift or cant shims stacked on top of one another will increase in increments of those lift and cant values.

[Donek]

14 minutes ago, jim_s said:

@digger jr - just based on the shims (ie, not taking any internal boot ramp angle into account), the stock lift shim gives about 3.5-4 degrees of lift, and the stock cant shim gives about 3 degrees of cant. Obviously, any lift or cant shims stacked on top of one another will increase in increments of those lift and cant values.

This is some pretty cool stuff Jim.  I just opened them in Open SCAD.  Thingiverse's customizer has never once worked for me.  Have you tried them in ABS at really cold temps yet.  I'd be afraid they might get brittle.  I'm not familiar with the brittle behavior of PETG though.  I recently got some Matterhackers PETG but have only printed one item with it.  Maybe I'll print some in that and test.  Thanks for sharing this stuff.

[jim_s]

Sean - I originally did some high-level research, and read that ABS tended to keep its 'useful characteristics' down to about -20C (-4F). That's certainly colder than I'll generally be man-enough to go out in, much less face here in the mid-Atlantic, but certainly, colder temps are regularly encountered in more extreme climates. With that in mind, I purchased some PETG filament, and printed up a set of shims, but my season ended before I got to try them out.  PETG seems to be more cold tolerant (I read about -40c, which also mathemagically corresponds to -40F), and that seems to be beyond the temperature that even the hardiest of Manly Men would choose to head out for a carving session. These temperature ranges, I would imagine, would be what would be expected of industrially-molded components, however - I have no idea how printed materials would be affected, though I can't imagine that materials properties of printed plastic would compare favorably to those of molded plastics in any circumstance.

I had a hard time finding definitive temperature ranges, or meanings of those ranges, for plastics. Lots of info about the upper end of the scale, but not much definitive info about the lower end.  As a materials guy (ie, you), I'd be interested if you could possibly shed some light on some of this (or at least let us know in which direction we might seek out such light, ourselves...) , so that sensible decisions on materials (or even whether printing makes sense or not) could be made.

I initially also did some seat-of-the-pants stress testing (at room temperature), including running the shims over repeatedly with a vehicle, hammering on them (sandwiched between 2 pieces of wood to reduce the effect of point stresses, which didn't seem very real-world), and the ABS held up Ok to that, but I'm no ASTM lab...

[Donek]

24 minutes ago, jim_s said:

Sean - I originally did some high-level research, and read that ABS tended to keep its 'useful characteristics' down to about -20C (-4F). That's certainly colder than I'll generally be man-enough to go out in, much less face here in the mid-Atlantic, but certainly, colder temps are regularly encountered in more extreme climates. With that in mind, I purchased some PETG filament, and printed up a set of shims, but my season ended before I got to try them out.  PETG seems to be more cold tolerant (I read about -40c, which also mathemagically corresponds to -40F), and that seems to be beyond the temperature that even the hardiest of Manly Men would choose to head out for a carving session. These temperature ranges, I would imagine, would be what would be expected of industrially-molded components, however - I have no idea how printed materials would be affected, though I can't imagine that materials properties of printed plastic would compare favorably to those of molded plastics in any circumstance.

I had a hard time finding definitive temperature ranges, or meanings of those ranges, for plastics. Lots of info about the upper end of the scale, but not much definitive info about the lower end.  As a materials guy (ie, you), I'd be interested if you could possibly shed some light on some of this (or at least let us know in which direction we might seek out such light, ourselves...) , so that sensible decisions on materials (or even whether printing makes sense or not) could be made.

I initially also did some seat-of-the-pants stress testing (at room temperature), including running the shims over repeatedly with a vehicle, hammering on them (sandwiched between 2 pieces of wood to reduce the effect of point stresses, which didn't seem very real-world), and the ABS held up Ok to that, but I'm no ASTM lab...

Since the parts are primarily in compression, I would expect them to do OK.  I'm not sure how they will last in a repeated loading sitiuation though.  I'm riding on Friday and will attempt to print the back heel lift and cant I have in there in PETG and see how it does on the hill.

 

[JRAZZ]

ABS and PETG perform pretty similarly in cold temperatures. The real difference is in UV resistance and general brittleness of the plastic.

I'm not a huge fan of PETG because it does tend to be brittle from the get-go. It is, however, very UV resistant.

 

I usually prefer to print in either ABS or PC/ABS as they have very good mechanical properties. In order to increase UV resistance I usually go with black because the colorant has charcoal in it and that absorbs UV pretty well.

 

But truthfully, the best material for this application is Nylon. If you can live with the problems of printing it it will yield the best parts. It is more flexible so it will add some shock absorption and it withstands cold temperature really well. Back when I designed plastic crates for supermarkets I would always choose a Nylon for the deep-freezer application because those would NEVER break.

Nylon is a great material but is a pain to deal with on the printer side.

 

If you're interested in performance of plastics in cold temperature applications look at this chart:

https://omnexus.specialchem.com/polymer-properties/properties/ductile-brittle-transition-temperature

 

[1xsculler]

Lift and cant of any degree can easily be accomplished on any F2 binding with SS fender washers between the top of the mounting plate and the part that holds your boot heel and toe along with the lifts and cants that come with a new set of bindings, IMHO.

[Lurch]

1 hour ago, 1xsculler said:

Lift and cant of any degree can easily be accomplished on any F2 binding with SS fender washers between the top of the mounting plate and the part that holds your boot heel and toe along with the lifts and cants that come with a new set of bindings, IMHO.

Why drive an SS when Jim_s & erazz have given you keys to a  custom Ferrari?

[jim_s]

2 hours ago, 1xsculler said:

Lift and cant of any degree can easily be accomplished on any F2 binding with SS fender washers between the top of the mounting plate and the part that holds your boot heel and toe along with the lifts and cants that come with a new set of bindings, IMHO.

I'm obv a fan of the printing approach :-), but it is good for people to know their options. Do you find any rocking or twisting of the binding tops vs bottoms with the fender washers, or are they held solidly/stably in place? (Wondering from the perspective of any front/rear rocking due to the possible pivot point in the middle, as well as any twisting due to having the top and bottom pieces not interlocking through the little groove/ridge arrangement)

Options are good!

[1xsculler]

55 minutes ago, jim_s said:

I'm obv a fan of the printing approach :-), but it is good for people to know their options. Do you find any rocking or twisting of the binding tops vs bottoms with the fender washers, or are they held solidly/stably in place? (Wondering from the perspective of any front/rear rocking due to the possible pivot point in the middle, as well as any twisting due to having the top and bottom pieces not interlocking through the little groove/ridge arrangement)

Options are good!

I've had no problems with any rocking or twisting using fender washers.  It doesn't appear to be the ideal way to lift and/or cant but it gets the job done.

[wantok]

I would worry about the shear of a stack of washers over the long term. Probably shouldn't watch shows about plane accidents.

Tognar has ski binding canting strips from 0.5 to 3 degree (as well as heel pads). 

Edited April 17, 2018 by wantok

[Donek]

Jim,

I have no expertise with Open SCAD.  I would guess this isn't too tricky to fix, but the parts are not laying flat on the xy plane when created in the print mode.

[jim_s]

5 hours ago, Donek said:

Jim,

I have no expertise with Open SCAD.  I would guess this isn't too tricky to fix, but the parts are not laying flat on the xy plane when created in the print mode.

 

Huh, that's the complete opposite of what it should be doing... Let me take a look tonight - I modified some variables to make it more readable in the Thingiverse Customizer, and I might have screwed something up in the process. That definitely is not right, though. :-/

[jim_s]

Ok, got it fixed - it was actually a bug I'd fixed previously, but then hacked up the wrong version to post on Thingiverse. I'll be glad if/when I ever get my brain back from this stupid brain injury!

I've tested it 6 ways from Sunday, but I'm still going to wait till morning to update the version on Thingiverse, just so that I can look at it with fresh eyes in the AM, and make sure I haven't made some other dumb mistake.

Should be up by a decent AM hour CO time.

PS, @Donek I'd love to hear about what all you're doing w/ 3D printing!!

[jim_s]

Ok, the proper version has been put up on Thingiverse now. The Thingiverse Customizer seems to be under some stress at present - I can't get it to complete a render (keeps timing out - when its under heavy load, longer renders tend to time out...), but the file can be downloaded and used on OpenSCAD. (My recommended approach.)

It has been pointed out to me that this information is all buried in a thread with a title that doesn't really reflect that its about customizable F2 binding cant/lift shims. (I sort of hijacked my own thread, and it morphed into the current topic.) So, I think I'm going to start a new thread, with a more relevant title, so that anyone searching in the future will have a better chance of finding this information. I'll post a link to it here.

[jim_s]

The dedicated thread on the 3D Printed approach to the F2 lift/cant wedges is now here: