Race technique - bomber vs push-pull

[ilya.s]

What is the proper technique when racing? Angulated style (bomber), or push-pull? From what I've seen on the Olympics they seem to not be using much angulation. What is the reason behind this?

Also unlike in carving their torso seems not to be facing the long axis of the board, it is facing the direction of the bindings. Is there any particular reason for this? Can I race facing the long axis of the board?

Are there any resources/online courses/books that might help with racing training? All the information out there seems to be related to ski racing.

Thanks.

[lonbordin]

Welcome to BOL.

There are IRL racing coaches here on BOL so I hope one of them steps up. 

I find Marc's YouTube channel to be a decent resource.

https://www.youtube.com/user/mcirigliano52/videos

Watching a few of his videos will give one a good overall idea.

That said don't discount ski racing information much of it is valid for both sports.

And just because... here's a video that I like to watch to get me pumped up.  

 

[alpinegirl]

As you ask questions please consider the following. When is the human body in its strongest position.?

 

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

Ilya, I'm referring you to Nevin Galmarini's video snippets for what I think is a very well centered, tight, but 'Counter-rotated' form. On heelside, he angulates enough to get his hip 'inside' the planned arc, and opens the lead shoulder enough 'to look around the bend', yet, that shoulder also moves forwards AND in a slight counter-rotating move by mid-turn. He finishes WITH HIS SPINE INLINE, not twisted, against his hips. This is deliberate, as the 'load' forces are greatest from mid-to-end of a racer's carve. Also, it sets up his toe-turn, by letting his hip move forwards at the edge-change.  He starts the Toe-side slightly 'closed' to the turn, and, again makes a slight counter-rotational move to put his rear hip over the rear knee, BUT, IS NOT Twisted-up, but skeletally strong as the forces increase. His overall technique isn't all that far off of what I used to see Nate Simms or Rosey Fletcher use, and they came out of rather good Coaching Schools.

It isn't that there's more 'strength' required for Racing Vs. freecarving, it is, however a matter of muscle reaction timing. If you're 'too far from center', a "recovery" move is needed to re-direct yourself. At that point, you're "Late", and putting yourself at a slightly higher risk for muscle pulls and the like. Most Freecarvers, giving a metronome to time their arcs, would be in the several count-of-swings by turn's end. Racers want that turn Done With in 2-3 ticks, or less. So, while the goals of a carved arc are similar, the intensity, duration, and thrust are quite different. As Alpinegirl also noted, you want to stay 'strong', and not waste time/effort to 'over-arc' the turn.  This is why I often advocate a tighter sidecut, shorter board for racing (G.S., an exception, but I'd prefer "nimble" over "Late" anytime), as making a jabbed-at arc that's early and complete enough is quicker than 'gliding' along a sidecut that may-or-may-not fit the course. But, for using said 'short board', you also need to know how to 'pump the flat' to gain thrust, which isn't an easy skill to own (unless you've put in the miles from Kidderbrook to Sunbowl at Flatton). 

[ilya.s]

This makes a lot more sense to me now, thanks! And Marc Cirigliano's videos are really good instruction.

So what is the reason for racers using counter-rotated style unlike over-rotated style in carving? I find that over-rotated style makes heelside turns much easier.

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

Ilya, it's in 'the timing'.. When you 'open up' ['pro-rotated' facing the turn], you are trying to make it a longer event. And that works for laid-over arcs of a longer duration, and, for 'crossing the body over' the board, vs, sucking it up, and going really 'early' onto the new edge. So, the addition of two components does change things a good deal. One is the quick-to-edge-timing racing often asks for; the other is the RETRACTION of body Mass, and doing so such that the board "Crosses Under the Torso" between turns. This move, then, requires you to be 2-3 steps Ahead [at the torso] of your turn rhythm, thus you appear to be 'countered' in upper body position (while btw, you are 'light on your feet', and NOT compressed by the gee-forces of the board's arc Vs. your body mass heading downhill), but it's an Anticipatory move. The idea is Not To Be 'twisted' when the compression cycle (board downhill of you, and building upon flex/grip forces against your body)  hits, but, instead be in a body position that allows strength AND re-direction of those forces..  When someone like CMC [the guy behind Donek's MK board!] carves, I directed him to absorb the carve in the best possible means, OVER A DURATION of Turn, by body position. This was exemplified by 'unusual' amounts of "angulation", in anticipation of the turn's forces. He got it, then took that into the realm of 'quick directional change', which is something we worked out through pumping turns on Turner Summer Ski Slalom skateboards. It works on snow, too, but takes strength not usually seen with most snowboarders. When someone IS strong enough, I add it to their riding skill tools. However, using the Rob Roy angulation [see Chris Karol's "don't Pat the Dog"] in mix with Masterpool's 'sudden arc' idea (used a lot by mid-early Burton riders on quick-turning Asyms) that 'punches' the board into a short carved arc at the mid-point of a turn, these are usually quicker in most courses. Ideally, the fastest line is still 'gliding' along a carved edge that's 45* to the snow, but, that's a theory of perfect arcs around a perfectly-set course. It doesn't factor in adaptability, or course sets with deliberate icy patches (common in N.H./VT./ME.) included. A Coach I used to work with at Okemo (and this was the very early 90's) used to do specific 'countered to the turn' drills; one of his girls was Betsy Shaw. So, be fluid, but know just why you 'set-up' how you did for a given turn. Be minimal, in movement patterns (yet positive enough to gain edging, thrust, and keep balance!) in a race course, but explore how to create a turn from both an 'early' perspective, and from 'oops-behind' to keep a flow in-course. Work on 'flat-base' thrust pumping if you are at that level. Timing of the cadence, particularly in regards to "front-foot" or "back-foot" are really important to turn and thrust control. I hope this doesn't confuse; it's hard to compress 3 decades of race thought into a paragraph or 3, but I hope the references lead you on to where you want to go.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Eric Brammer aka PSR

[ilya.s]

Thanks a lot for the detailed explanation! I indeed tried today riding using the not-overly-rotated non-angulated push-pull style and indeed edge transitions became much faster, almost instantaneous. I've been riding bomber (angulated style) for a couple of years now, and switching techniques is not that easy, but I will persist. :)

What exactly do you mean by flat-base thrust pumping? I've never heard of this term before...

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

12 hours ago, ilya.s said:

What exactly do you mean by flat-base thrust pumping? I've never heard of this term before...

Try to ride on a flatter slope (green circle pitch), making very shallow-edged turns (almost a skid like turn, but NO rotary motion), then finish each turn with an intense and quick 'press' of the rear foot. Let the front foot get light, or even airborne. To recover, 'step' the front foot into the new edge, but not trying to get 'deep' into the edging. You should, after 4-5 "S's" be gaining speed readily. At Stratton, using this type of turn was the best way to roll on down Log Road, or Lower Kidderbrook, both flat and narrow trails.

This tactic is really useful in Boardercross.Doing it on the downslope of a roller often can gain you a position in a pack. In Slalom or G.S.,it also can be used IF you're running a tight-sidecut board that lets you 'straight-line' between gates, and you want more speed in the course. 

Once you are comfortable with the thrust generated, you can apply this to a steeper pitch, and use much more edge. On a lively board, like a Volkl, Madds or Prior, airborne edge changes become quite easy with a little 'pump' off the tail. CMC/Ripturns here does this at will, making his riding very dynamic at times.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Eric Brammer aka PSR

[charliechocolate]

Videos of CMC?

[lonbordin]

Seriously? Use da' Google.

I'll get you started...

 

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

2 hours ago, lonbordin said:

Seriously? Use da' Google.

Thanks for tossing that up there! BTW, the last snippet, is yours truly (red jacket and boots), and the guy Curt almost encircles is Steve Cloyes.

I miss that Madds. I miss my knees, too...

[ilya.s]

I hope I understand the racing technique correctly, please correct me if I'm wrong:

1. There's no weight shifting as in bomber (angulated) style - the pressure is mostly equal on both feet throughout the whole turn?

2. There's only a slight amount of angulation (just keeping shoulders parallel to the slope), not angulating with the whole body (unlike in toeside problem)

3. Making the transition by sucking the board in, and then pushing the board away as soon as I transition to the next edge to avoid falling down?

What are the main differences from the extremecarving push/pull style? It seems to be quite similar to me... Is it just avoiding over-rotation to the inside of the turn, and making edge transitions much earlier?

Here's a video of me practicing (trying to go for the racing style, not bomber), please let me know any noticeable mistakes:

 

 

Edited March 5, 2017 by ilya.s

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

Ilya, in that video, you are doing alright in getting up on edge, but you don't "get to the edge" quickly at all. If you think of an airplane banking into a turn, you're making the 'roll' into the turn more at a pace of a light business jet, not rolling quickly like a Fighter plane can do. This is because you're very quiet at the hip, not just 'into the new edge', but also in any fore-aft movement. You want to really soften a bit at the knees, and allow your hip to cross into the next turn a few heartbeats sooner. This doesn't add or detract from any rotation from the mid-upper torso, it is merely a slight change in muscle tension (less, at the knees, as you end a turn), and timing (move the hip a 'bit' sooner, just ahead of the next turn).  In Angulation, at the shoulders, also let that stay as level as you can. This (on the toeside turn), is where I see you 'getting late', and kind of blocking the hip move across the board, but, it doesn't occur in All of your turns. Be aware of when the turn feels 'late', and consider how fluidly the torso moved out of the Previous Turn, and then into the New Turn (see, it may not actually be 'knees', but late angulation that messed the timing?). Mid-turn, things look solid, and you are putting pressure into the arc cleanly. I didn't see chatter or over-pressure, and the arc line is smooth, which are all good things.

[lonbordin]

@ilya.s Don't reach for the snow... matter of fact imagine it's lava.  

 

Oh, and listen to PSR... to say he knows this stuff is a gross understatement.

[Corey]

How did it get called 'Bomber style'? 

[ilya.s]

From Carver's Almanac:

Quote

 

there seem to be two primary techniques:

• Bomber-style, or angulated style, which emphasizes angulation. It causes the center of mass to be balanced over the edge of the board
• Push-pull style, which emphasizes inclination. Riders push or pull against the board to equalize the lateral forces.

 

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

7 minutes ago, corey_dyck said:

How did it get called 'Bomber style'? 

Well, Corey, that's On YOU, Dude!!  I was doing it before it had a 'name'!  

[terekhov]

2 hours ago, corey_dyck said:

How did it get called 'Bomber style'? 

never mind, it's cool russianism. here you MUST ride in particular style to be called a carver at all :) first question when two carvers met is "in which style do you carve?" - with allowed options are: bomber, extreme carving, racing STYLE, and pump.

[Zone]

What's pump style? 

[frozzen]

About pump - http://snowboard.vladpopov.com/snow/pump.html

 

[Zone]

Thanks, that's what CMC was doing in the video above in some of the segments. I didn't know there was a name for it  :-)

[frozzen]

'Pump' - it is skateboard technique adapted to snowboard.  

I'm trying to learn the race technique too (right rider)

 
      PSR, please, let me some advice for correcting noticeable mistakes.

[pow4ever]

In LDP:  when I hear pump the above video comes to mind.  Put more energy to accelerate the board going down hill or "flatter section".

watching this thread with great interest.

[Zone]

Thanks. Great pumping explanation video. The acceleration he got is amazing. I realized I've been experimenting with method 1&2 this year, or a combination of the 2 because I didn't have any idea what I was doing.

Method 3 doesn't quite work because I'm running 45/35 angles on 22cm board.

Method 4 seems efficient but so fugly.

It came from this original post a few weeks back. 

I think 1&2 (esp 1 relates very much to Kelly Slater style)

 

Edited March 6, 2017 by Zone

[frozzen]

Current race technique