2stroke Posted February 15, 2017 Report Share Posted February 15, 2017 One of the problems with alpine/carving/hardbooting is entry into the sport. With the lack of readily available gear, on a rental basis, it is difficult to "try out" hardbooting. Colson, my youngest son, 15 has primarily been a skier and has natural ability. He would board a couple days out of the season and maybe for a half day max. He picked up the basics quickly but never progressed until I got pissed and said I'm not going to pack and bring up his boarding stuff unless he was going to try. Suddenly it clicked for him and he was enjoying it much more. Now he is at the beginning stages of riding the edge. He is now wanting to try hardbooting and I think he would pick it up and start carving quick. Now this is a proud time for me that he and my older son want to HB like dad, but... the hard part is how do I even go about starting them? My older son barely boards has 2 days in and is not as a quick learn as my younger son but he is a skilled but not an aggressive skier. My older son is close to if not fitting into my size so I *may* be able to put him into an old pair of boots, oooold rosignol's that I used for about a season. Do I start him with the soft HB's? or do I try to get him more proficient on a soft set up first? For my younger son. How do I go about starting him? Rent AT boots and beg/borrow a junior board? He is now 5'1" and barely 100 lbs. Here is a quick video of myself (3 year hardbooter) and my younger son on the flatter upper part of Gunsmoke. Gunsmoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoffV Posted February 15, 2017 Report Share Posted February 15, 2017 (edited) @2stroke I have a 13 year old who both skies and snowboards, but is a far better skier. I am currently working with him on learning to ride his "down hill edge" on his snowboard. If you look at the snowboards 90% of them do not know how to carve a turn (ride their down hill edge). Switching over to an HB setup without knowing how to carve on a softie setup will be a difficult transition. I think your son first needs to learn the basics of carving on his current board before you introduce new equipment. I would highly recommend slowly changing his current binding angles to a more aggressive carving stance and working on advanced carving techniques. This will require squaring up his shoulders, getting lower and adding a lot more angulation on the board, and learning to committing a turn on your down hill edge. Looking at your sons video he slides his turn at the apex and is not using his down hill edge. Focus on riding the down hill edge first, once he figures that out then you can look into gear. I was going to initially get my son some HB boots, but I am now focused on trying to get him to carve in his current set up. Post some updated video's has he progress's, I'd love to see it.. @Jack Michaud any other insight/recommendation? Edited February 15, 2017 by GeoffV 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2stroke Posted February 15, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2017 He can carve edge to edge without skidding the transition where it is a little flatter but on the vid here, he is scrubbing off a bit for sure. Also any feel free to critique my riding. Ive been hardboots for about 3 years, basically self taught outside of riding with a few guys better than me, and would love to get the heelside much deeper. I have just this year been able to truly carve Deer bowl (a groomed black diamond but really a steep blue), but the heels dont fall as comfortably as the toes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2stroke Posted February 15, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2017 Ill work on getting more video, but my youngest typically runs off with the gopro and shoots 30 minutes of "pointed too low from the chest mount" before killing the battery... he he Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breeseomatic Posted February 15, 2017 Report Share Posted February 15, 2017 3 hours ago, 2stroke said: One of the problems with alpine/carving/hardbooting is entry into the sport. With the lack of readily available gear, on a rental basis, it is difficult to "try out" hardbooting. Colson, my youngest son, 15 has primarily been a skier and has natural ability. He would board a couple days out of the season and maybe for a half day max. He picked up the basics quickly but never progressed until I got pissed and said I'm not going to pack and bring up his boarding stuff unless he was going to try. Suddenly it clicked for him and he was enjoying it much more. Now he is at the beginning stages of riding the edge. He is now wanting to try hardbooting and I think he would pick it up and start carving quick. Now this is a proud time for me that he and my older son want to HB like dad, but... the hard part is how do I even go about starting them? My older son barely boards has 2 days in and is not as a quick learn as my younger son but he is a skilled but not an aggressive skier. My older son is close to if not fitting into my size so I *may* be able to put him into an old pair of boots, oooold rosignol's that I used for about a season. Do I start him with the soft HB's? or do I try to get him more proficient on a soft set up first? For my younger son. How do I go about starting him? Rent AT boots and beg/borrow a junior board? He is now 5'1" and barely 100 lbs. Here is a quick video of myself (3 year hardbooter) and my younger son on the flatter upper part of Gunsmoke. Gunsmoke Wow, following in dad's steps for sure. I second what GeoffV has to say and will add: Look to Ryan Knapton for soft boot carving inspiration and technique. As far as critique, you're stiff legging your heel side turns and not rotating your upper body into the turn enough. Getting low and trying to take your left hand and touch your right toe can be a game changer, at least it was for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2stroke Posted February 15, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2017 (edited) Joe, you are right. Straight leg especially in the first heelside after passing camera. I can tell when I straight leg but havent figured what I do that leads up to doing it, maybe lazy? Funny thing when it is steeper, I am getting much lower and touching boots but still not burying the hip to the hill on heelsides. Do you have a board that may fit Colson/Kim? since they are about the same size now. Edited February 15, 2017 by 2stroke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breeseomatic Posted February 15, 2017 Report Share Posted February 15, 2017 1 hour ago, 2stroke said: Joe, you are right. Straight leg especially in the first heelside after passing camera. I can tell when I straight leg but havent figured what I do that leads up to doing it, maybe lazy? Funny thing when it is steeper, I am getting much lower and touching boots but still not burying the hip to the hill on heelsides. Do you have a board that may fit Colson/Kim? since they are about the same size now. Rosignol Proton 149. Come by and pick it up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Brammer aka PSR Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 When watching the video, I noticed that both of you are doing mostly 'cross-over turns', wherein the hip doesn't come across the board with the knees, but 'waits' for the Upper Torso to make the move across. That little delay means you'll never be comfortable getting to and early edge-set on steeper terrain. Regardless of equipment, that's the next step in your riding that needs to be made. Refer to CMC in the 'carvemaster challenge' as seen from head-on; you'll almost never see him getting 'tall' in the edge transferral. As for Hardboots/boards for the boys, fit boots first, then source bindings that are in the Ibex/F-2/Phiokka style, nothing too stiff, yet. Boards can come later, as a moderately stiff freeride board will do the first few times out in the 'new' boots. Don't change angles or stance width dramatically (unless you found a 'skinny' board that demands forward angles), but be willing to move things a bit, especially in rotation of the angles, but do any tweak of the settings one-at-a-time, and in moderation. The emphasis should be on edge control, so work on how it feels to 'roll' the board from edge-to-edge, and use the knees (soft, flexed, but directing the edge input) to 'point' into the turn. An analogy I like to use with kids is to think of the lower leg as a "joystick" controller, with the knee being at the top of the yolk. You can move them Forwards, Side-to-Side, Together, One at a time, and even Back (in soft snow, or to ollie, or finish a turn on the tail- =- Just don't forget to Reset in the Forward position!). Once that clicks, you can play with timing, and separate the motion intensity, and start to feel how to 'drive' the board through the boots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STP Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 Back 12-13 years ago I bought some womens ski boots at a ski swap for $15 buck that fit my 10 year old son. I also had a very soft 53 Z-Board (I have no clue who made this board) with old race plates. He rode this board for two years and carved very well. The ski boots were very awkward as they did not flex and couldn't adjust the forward lean. Therefore, I needed to buckle his rear foot in at the top of the mountain as he could not do this, I needed to ride behind him as if he fell he might not be able to get up if it wasn't a steep slope and at the bottom he could barely reach the rear binding to release, so I released it for him. We rode together on the carving board for at least 15-20 days for two years. He then kicked me to the curb and got back onto the soft boots and terrain park.....typical teenager. I'm glad that I did not buy the boots as his feet were growing so fast, as he is still riding the terrain park. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmorita Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 On Ebay. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Burton-Factory-Prime-3-5-KIDS-Racing-or-Carving-Snowboard-LIKE-BRAND-NEW-/152411301798?hash=item237c6be7a6:g:5ycAAOSwA3dYdbLz 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Brammer aka PSR Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, STP said: The ski boots were very awkward as they did not flex and couldn't adjust the forward lean. Therefore, I needed to buckle his rear foot in at the top of the mountain as he could not do this, I needed to ride behind him as if he fell he might not be able to get up if it wasn't a steep slope and at the bottom he could barely reach the rear binding to release, so I released it for him. We rode together on the carving board for at least 15-20 days for two years. He then kicked me to the curb and got back onto the soft boots and terrain park.....typical teenager. Yup, interdependence, wrong move with any 'tweener' ! Had you made this an 'I decided to do this' endeavor, you might've won the war while losing the tactical battle, but, the 'trash campaign' had to be along the lines of 'They, over there, can't do what YOU do!' Good luck with that bit of reverse psych!! Edited February 16, 2017 by Eric Brammer aka PSR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2stroke Posted February 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 15 hours ago, Eric Brammer aka PSR said: When watching the video, I noticed that both of you are doing mostly 'cross-over turns', wherein the hip doesn't come across the board with the knees, but 'waits' for the Upper Torso to make the move across. That little delay means you'll never be comfortable getting to and early edge-set on steeper terrain. Regardless of equipment, that's the next step in your riding that needs to be made. Refer to CMC in the 'carvemaster challenge' as seen from head-on; you'll almost never see him getting 'tall' in the edge transferral. As for Hardboots/boards for the boys, fit boots first, then source bindings that are in the Ibex/F-2/Phiokka style, nothing too stiff, yet. Boards can come later, as a moderately stiff freeride board will do the first few times out in the 'new' boots. Don't change angles or stance width dramatically (unless you found a 'skinny' board that demands forward angles), but be willing to move things a bit, especially in rotation of the angles, but do any tweak of the settings one-at-a-time, and in moderation. The emphasis should be on edge control, so work on how it feels to 'roll' the board from edge-to-edge, and use the knees (soft, flexed, but directing the edge input) to 'point' into the turn. An analogy I like to use with kids is to think of the lower leg as a "joystick" controller, with the knee being at the top of the yolk. You can move them Forwards, Side-to-Side, Together, One at a time, and even Back (in soft snow, or to ollie, or finish a turn on the tail- =- Just don't forget to Reset in the Forward position!). Once that clicks, you can play with timing, and separate the motion intensity, and start to feel how to 'drive' the board through the boots. Eric, so I should be initiating with a cross under on steeper terrain? or in general? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Brammer aka PSR Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 Yes!, and, often.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkoonyMcGroomer Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 On 2/15/2017 at 9:59 AM, 2stroke said: He is now wanting to try hardbooting and I think he would pick it up and start carving quick. Now this is a proud time for me that he and my older son want to HB like dad, but... Cherish the moment! I certainly did while it lasted when my son only wanted to snowboard (like Dad, though not HB) until he was drawn to the terrain park, and now he only wants to fly through the air. I have not had the ability (nor the inclination) to keep up with him since he was 13. Might get him on HB someday, as recently we were in the garage tuning boards and his buddy was checking out my MK and said to my son, "we should try this". Interest/encouragement from his peers is probably the only way it might happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STP Posted February 17, 2017 Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 19 hours ago, Eric Brammer aka PSR said: Yup, interdependence, wrong move with any 'tweener' ! Had you made this an 'I decided to do this' endeavor, you might've won the war while losing the tactical battle, but, the 'trash campaign' had to be along the lines of 'They, over there, can't do what YOU do!' Good luck with that bit of reverse psych!! He has been in college and has only boarded a few times over the last 4 years and always with his friends. We went to Bachelor for a week and he rode behind me and took lots of video and could not believe carving down the steeps and getting air on transition. Depending on speed, you can fly 5-20 feet in the air and land into another cranking turn. He then said he wants to try again now that he can use my boots and boards.....Can't wait to get him up there again as he was a natural. Not over yet..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonbordin Posted February 17, 2017 Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 All these boarding kids and mine grew up to be a skier. Such is life. At least he strives to carve on skis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softbootsurfer Posted February 17, 2017 Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 (edited) just incredible...those days and years we spent together...I taught him to carve first thing...just spent some days together in the WesB zones, on his latest visit as well and celebrating his 40th birthday...this a Milk shot of him from 32 years ago Edited February 17, 2017 by softbootsurfer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted February 20, 2017 Report Share Posted February 20, 2017 On 2/16/2017 at 8:27 PM, softbootsurfer said: just incredible...those days and years we spent together...I taught him to carve first thing...just spent some days together in the WesB zones, on his latest visit as well and celebrating his 40th birthday...this a Milk shot of him from 32 years ago He's 8 years old in that shot? GeoffV is exactly right. Have him really learn to carve his softboot gear first, starting on gentler slopes. Being able to carve the downhill edge and rail C-shaped carves consistently is the test. Gotta run, I'll be back. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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