Does Reducing Angles reduce Knee or Muscle Strain??

[barryj]

I know how everybody is suggesting smaller angles on wider boards.........which I have tried and just doesn't work for me....but maybe the question is do steeper angles create more knee/muscle  strain??

I run 60/55 angles and have  TD3 SW SI's on my pow setup and I had a 3 front disk and 6 rear.............and that seemed totally overkill for a pow setup (What was I thinking??) so I reduced the rear to a 3 disk.   That was an improvement the rear thigh appreciated while in the pow! That got me additionally thinking why do I need 60/55 on a pow board?

So I'm going to reduce it to 55/50 to see the impact......I'm hoping  my legs will like the change and last longer in the pow......today was an EPIC Tahoe knee deep pow day and my thighs were toast by noon...even on my Moss Snowstick with backset!

What do the Sages say????

Edited January 22, 2017 by barryj

[barryj]

Thanks Jim....yeah, that's what I thought.......and it was Angie's comments from the video review about your and hers  Donek pow boards where she said (she rides same high angles as me)  she said she reduces her angles to 55/50 that got me thinking about trying it again

Looking forward to meeting ya out here in Tahoe in March..........

[BlueB]

Adjusting the angles, cant/lift, stance width, for one's anatomy AND for optimal performance, for a given board, would minimize the knee and muscle strain. 

[lonbordin]

IMHO, those angles look way too high for the width of that board, especially for powder riding.

I really think the toes and heels at the edges maxim is a good place to start with the setup, then use the cant to get your front knee fairly centered, then tweak for comfort.

 

[RCrobar]

Hi Barry

Sometimes powder can expose hard boot set up problems that are not quite as obvious when riding hard pack, issues that are not fully related to a riders preferred stance angles or hard vs soft snow.  When riding powder you can't push 'down' when ever or where ever you want to, to keep your balance, like you can on the groomers.

Try this test, just ride straight in the powder for a good long distance.  You should feel no muscle strain, it should feel like you are relaxed, standing at the bar ordering another Cesar:)  You might even be able to lock you knees straight, as a test, and just float down an easy slope; sort of like riding up a T-Bar Surface Lift and giving your legs a rest on the way up by locking your knee/leg straight.

You will feel a balance point between your feet, like you are standing and balancing on a kids teeter totter.

If you CAN'T do this, for example you feel like you have to lean quite a bit forward or backward to balance the Teeter Totter, you are forced to hold your legs in a strained position like an isometric 'leg burning' torture test.  Your legs will burn out FAST!

I personally find powder much easier on the legs then the heavy G's of groomers and big, hard, fast GS turns.

Thought this might help you to look at your set up in a different direction.  Perhaps boots that are looser, a more upright boot position, too big of a cant in the back binding, etc, etc.

Hope this helps you enjoy the powder you are getting.
Rob

Edited January 22, 2017 by RCrobar

[barryj]

Hey Rob,

Thanks for the info.  Yep on this Moss U5 I can ride a straight line balanced and no leg strain all day.

What I have noticed is  - for my legs to have enough forward flex/freedom of movement to absorb the bumps/rollers of pow riding I do not crank my boots down all the way, probably 3/4 as compared to cranking down  for ripping groomers.  I also leave the booster strap loose with at least an half inch of play.  I'm running all Blue springs on the BTS and have some BTS forward lean on the rear boot. I think my 220 lbs and 6'2"  over flexes yellow springs.   I did lower the rear TD3 SW SI Disk from a 6 to a 3.....so  running 3/3 which helped center me more.............but lost some nose control, so moved both bindings forward 1 insert hole - which got the power back under my front foot.

This flexibility comes at a cost of  at least 1/2 inch worth of heel play in both feet.......that's where I feel the "burn"  but it's combined with loss of edge control on groomers more noticeably as  the day goes on and my legs tire.  

I did reduce my angles 5 degrees on both  feet and didn't notice any negatives.....nor much of any difference either riding today in heavy knee deep  pow.

I plan to go down another 5 degrees front/rear again for next pow day.........we will see what that does for me -

Edited January 23, 2017 by barryj

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

Barry, a powder-riding concept I often use to explain how to get the 'best' out of board in softer snow is this;  Use the front foot to guide (rotary steering, very little edging!), sense weighting pressure, and very importantly, Lift to unweight. The rear foot then does the bulk of the edge-work (if any is needed), but does also control thrust by pressuring or by helping unweight (using both feet). 

This is why, when you watch Jim Zellers, Tom Burt, Dana Nicholson, or Damien riding in powder (in admittedly pretty soft 'hardshells'), you'll note they all have a 'splay' that's considerable, often near 40*F / 20*R, with that rear foot doing it's edging through toe/heel moves, but with their hips usually close-to-center despite lots of bend at the knees. But, hey, what did they know?...

[philw]

I don't personally do that - deal with the legs separately. To me it's one edge, both legs together, one movement. But perhaps that's a mental model.

Angles - those would be way too steep for me. I ride the same as I ride on piste - 45 degrees parallel. I used to ride steeper on piste when the fashion was for that, but I backed off the piste angles as I could not be bothered to learn two different sets of angles.

If you ever try to ride an SL board in deep powder (don't bother), then your legs will tire very quickly because you have to work hard at lateral (side to side) balance all the time. If you look at the image here, then although your board's a sensible width for powder, your leverage looks the same as for a slalom board.... you're going to have problems, I'd guess, in keeping your balance.

Sure, straight running is easy - I can do it on an SL board. But that's not how most powder is most of the time.

So you have a board which looks right, but the bindings are set up for piste not powder. I'd back those angles off.

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

15 hours ago, philw said:

I don't personally do that - deal with the legs separately. To me it's one edge, both legs together, one movement. But perhaps that's a mental model.

Phil, do you skateboard? Surf? If so, can you kickturn? Or pump through a turn, or across a wave's face? If 'Yes' to any of those, you use separate motor control for each foot.

Otherwise, I do not want to be on the chairlift that's behind as you exit....

[philw]

7 hours ago, Eric Brammer aka PSR said:

Phil, do you skateboard? Surf? If so, can you kickturn? Or pump through a turn, or across a wave's face? If 'Yes' to any of those, you use separate motor control for each foot.

Otherwise, I do not want to be on the chairlift that's behind as you exit....

I've never fallen on a chairlift or ridden off one clipped in. There's powder riding, which we were discussing, and other stuff, which we were not.

I'm not suggesting that your approach is "wrong" or that you should change it, merely that my approach is different.

[neanderthal]

Sometimes I explain snowboarding as the exact opposite of waterskiing except in powder- instead of leaning back and moving your front foot to change direction while pivioting on your rear foot on a snowboard you lean forward and piviot on the front foot while moving the back foot to change direction. In powder it seems that the technique and feel is very much like waterskiing providing it is deep enough. 

Carving is when you figure out how to piviot between the feet by trusting the edge of the board to make the turn rather than grossly pointing the board where you want it to go. (Not entirely true as we know you can either up or down unweighted the board and then move it as a unit with both legs in that unweighted instant) This takes a integrated approach using both feet for the same purpose and is probably where the tuck the knees together style came from actually trying to use both legs as one unit

All three approaches have their merit and we use the best tool for each situation. Most the time I try to carve. Some times I have to slide a turn or slarve and occasionally god gives me the chance to float

 

Not sure who's tag line I'm stealing/butchering but: 

Any cat can make cord only God can give the powder

[neanderthal]

Steep angles that are fairly parallel favor carving while mechanically disadvantaging other turning styles.  A splay and slacker rear foot favors forcing the rear of the board in a turn (Slarving) while quite good still for carving. The large muscle groups better allow you to kick your rear leg front and back - think walking. Like this the front foot becomes a piviot pointing where you want to go by moving the rear of the board around. Minor muscle groups then are used for lateral stabilization of the front foot and this is exacerbated with a wider board putting more lateral forces into your front knee (could cause knee pain balance issue or just be tiring).   Parallel slack angles or duck may be the most versatile (more powerful and quicker turns in the deep or through trees) on a wider board because you can use big muscle groups to move the front or rear of the board like walking a kickturn or tick-tacking on a skateboard. I like to look ahead and rotate my body to the front of the board when riding faster or cruising and find that if the angles are slacker than about 45 degrees this puts too much internal rotation (rotation of the knee to the great toe side) for me and starts to cause knee pain.

If you look at my new Jones hovercraft over on the new board porn thread you will find that our angles are not that far off but for me I would probably slacken the angles just a bit on that moss. Not less than 45 degrees and keep a splay with the front a bit steeper. That said everyone is mechanically different and has different style. 

I just love to see that I'm not the only one riding this sort of board in plates and loving it. 

Edited January 26, 2017 by neanderthal

[BlueB]

Neandy, if you do your sliding turns by kicking the rear foot around, you still have a lot of space to improve your riding. I can go into more details, if you wish. 

As for facing the front - don't, face the binding angles, as your neutral stance. From there, you can rotate back and forth, but only as a dynamic part of turning. 

[BlueB]

Barry, you come back year after year, with pics of grossly too steep angles for  given board width and ask similar questions, just to hear the same answers (flatten the angles). 

There is nothing wrong with your preference for higher angles, but then ride a narrower board. It's easier. 

[BlueB]

17 hours ago, Eric Brammer aka PSR said:

Phil, do you skateboard? Surf? If so, can you kickturn? Or pump through a turn, or across a wave's face? If 'Yes' to any of those, you use separate motor control for each foot.

Otherwise, I do not want to be on the chairlift that's behind as you exit....

I'm sure this ^ was tongue in cheek, but can come across as a bit too cheeky... Phil probably can school the majority of us, when it comes to powder riding. Even if he doesn't describe the things the way you would... 

[neanderthal]

BlueB. Thanks! I'm sure I have lots to learn

I don't usually ride by kicking my rear foot but was illustrating a spectrum of style and riding. That said if you don't force turns like that through trees on riding bumps I really would like to learn your tricks. As for riding angle I just prefer a more forward facing stance as it feels more symmetrical on a symmetrical board but I do have fond memories of riding slacker angles on my asym boards

[BlueB]

1) Work on "slarving" by implementing the unequal edge pressure - let the nose start a very aggressive carve, but don't engage the tail, rather let it slide (not push into a slide), early in the turn. Once happy with the turn shape, engage the tail edge again, finish the turn as a carve. 

2) Try finding a rotation point between the feet. Front foot actively seeks higher line, rear foot seeks lower line. Try on groomed on flatter pitches and low edge angles first, then work your way to steeper and higher edge angle. 

3) In soft snow (and in some mogul situations), rear foot should add downward pressure, not sideways kick. This I mostly do in the 2nd half of the turn. Acts as a brake on steeps, tightens the turn and brings the nose up for the initiation of next turn. 

4) Try riding moguls using 3 possible lines to make the turn:
Over the top, use the down-unweighing (cross under), very independent leg flexing/extending is required; 
Side, using it as a berm, use in between the feet rotation; 
Down the through, carve or slarve. 

5) Explore both rotation and counter rotation (as long as counter rotation is from the core tension, not from throwing the body parts around) effects on the turn. IMO, the best freeriding turn contains both at various stages of the turn. 

[nigelc]

The BTS are ideal for powder. I always back the springs right off to soften the flex and increase the range of motion and do my boots up the same as always. I keep a count on my phone of how many turns each nut is adjusted so I can return them to the original position when required

[barryj]

Well you can teach an Old Dog new tricks!........  I've reduced my angles down to 55/50 on the Moss and am liking it.

Worked down 5 degrees at a time and gave myself two full days  to live with each 5 degree F&R angle drop - no matter what!

It felt weird at first, like a little less response getting going, you know getting up to speed but once hauling it's more responsive especially on  my heelside   

Now all this testing and reducing has been on groomers.......the big test is coming - going down to 50/45 for the Big Pow we got coming Thurs/Fri   I'll let ya know it goes - stay tuned...............

 

Edited February 1, 2017 by barryj

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

Oh, finally, the waterskier finds out that snow is 'different'!  

Picking on ya, btw, but glad you went outside of the box!

[BlueB]

Good for you, Barry! 

When you are ready to go down further, try to increase the splay too. Maybe 50/40? It helps for freeriding - more rotational freedom. 

[Corey]

I run about 45 front, 35 rear on a 25 cm waisted powder board.  However, I'd put myself in the newbie/intermediate category on that board.  It felt very natural.  I just left the cant angles where they were on narrower boards, so my pure heel/toe lift with a tiny bit of outward cant became more of a mix of inward cant and toe lift.  Felt good on carpet and the couple of days on the hill so far.