Sweat The Technique: The Root Cause of Ugly (Free) Riding?

[lordmetroland]

After witnessing the spectacle of some ugly riding yesterday, I started thinking about the cause. It's not as if my technique - and it's all softbooting - is all that special or refined, so I'm not looking to cast stones here. But the preponderance of snowboarders I see while I'm out riding have little of the flow you might have once associated with a Craig Kelly or a Tom Burt or a Terje Haakonson. And some of these guys I'm seeing clearly have years of experience, but rather than keeping the board up on edge, seem to straightline over most terrain like they just stole something.

 

I suspect that making turns with a 25", +15/-15 stance may always look a bit ungainly but I started to wonder if the "tech advances" of the past decade may have done something to retard individual progression. Kind of analogous to the situation in tennis or golf or skiing where improvements to the equipment can mask some deficiencies in technique. Shorter boards, rocker/camber combos, magnetraction, etc. flatten and shorten the learning curve, but maybe they also put a ceiling on mastering the craft? With most mainstream freeride boards, I'm not sure really aggressive inputs are rewarded with eye-opening response.  I love my Donek Hazelwood, but it does not reward lazy technique. Maybe mistakenly, I have to think that learning on a crappy, no sidecut, unforgiving plank (with dumb graphics) may have forced me to get better.

 

I wonder if some of the riders I wince at are simply being held back by freeride "advances" that make progressing easier, but never challenges them to fully master the art of turning. Am I high?

 

 

[That Guy...]

You are not high.  I see ugly riding every day, be it on boards or motorcycles.  Cheap equipment allows halfwits to partake in something that would otherwise be unobtainable.  To make a parallel between bikes and boards- you'll almost never see a dipshit on a Kessler or a Ducati, but you see plenty on Romes and GSX-Rs.  

 

Regarding the technology and technique that goes into "the others," you have to look at what the purpose of these boards and the technique used to ride them is.  Flailing around in a park and jibbing off crap doesn't require the same stuff we use on this side of the fence.  To wit, everything has a purpose, and ours is as alien and nonsensical to them as theirs is to us.  That having been said... Kessler and Ducati can get away with the same solid colors year after year because the people that buy them understand the value of the technology and racing pedigree contained within.  Rome and Suzuki change graphics and paint colors yearly or nearly so because they're catering to a less discerning demographic that's worried more about image than uncompromising performance. 

 

I had a thought this year while riding the lift discussing this very topic with a skier friend- snowboarding is in its malaise phase right now.  Companies are looking for the next big thing and are grasping at straws, trying out any and just about every new development in hopes that it'll catch on and revolutionize the sport.  Thing is, it's all bullshit.  Case in point: magnetraction.  If there is any one design feature out there that could be the poster child for lack of understanding how boards work, it would be magnetraction.  Rather than design a board that- as you say- rewards skill, they build one that hinders it.  It is the automatic transmission of snowboard design, promoting disengaged laziness everywhere it goes.  Once the manufacturers start weeding out their useless designs, and once (if- big if) interest shifts from image and towards skill, you'll see an upswing.  Thing is, that's just not going to happen any time soon.

 

As a side note- I had the chance to put a file on a magnetraction board this past season.  It was pretty much untunable.  You can bevel the base edge all day long, but good damn luck giving the sidewall edge a consistent shape.

[arneburner]

You are not high.  I see ugly riding everPly day, be it on boards or motorcycles.  Cheap equipment allows halfwits to partake in something that would otherwise be unobtainable.  To make a parallel between bikes and boards- you'll almost never see a dipshit on a Kessler or a Ducati, but you see plenty on Romes and GSX-Rs.  

 

Regarding the technology and technique that goes into "the others," you have to look at what the purpose of these boards and the technique used to ride them is.  Flailing around in a park and jibbing off crap doesn't require the same stuff we use on this side of the fence.  To wit, everything has a purpose, and ours is as alien and nonsensical to them as theirs is to us.  That having been said... Kessler and Ducati can get away with the same solid colors year after year because the people that buy them understand the value of the technology and racing pedigree contained within.  Rome and Suzuki change graphics and paint colors yearly or nearly so because they're catering to a less discerning demographic that's worried more about image than uncompromising performance. 

 

I had a thought this year while riding the lift discussing this very topic with a skier friend- snowboarding is in its malaise phase right now.  Companies are looking for the next big thing and are grasping at straws, trying out any and just about every new development in hopes that it'll catch on and revolutionize the sport.  Thing is, it's all bullshit.  Case in point: magnetraction.  If there is any one design feature out there that could be the poster child for lack of understanding how boards work, it would be magnetraction.  Rather than design a board that- as you say- rewards skill, they build one that hinders it.  It is the automatic transmission of snowboard design, promoting disengaged laziness everywhere it goes.  Once the manufacturers start weeding out their useless designs, and once (if- big if) interest shifts from image and towards skill, you'll see an upswing.  Thing is, that's just not going to happen any time soon.

 

As a side note- I had the chance to put a file on a magnetraction board this past season.  It was pretty much untunable.  You can bevel the base edge all day long, but good damn luck giving the sidewall edge a consistent shape.

Magnetraction sucks. I tested a Jones powder board with it. It worked OK in powder. On the groom every time you put the board on edge it would slow down. Until I got used to it, I nearly fell forward on every turn. I am used to race boards that build speed out of the turn, not slow down. Total bs.

My big powder board is an old (1999?) Nitro 178 st with old clicker bindings and new kwicker boa boots. On lesser powder days I use an old 172 Santa Cruz or a newer High Society Empire with rocker and double camber. Salomon Chief bindings and Van Boa boots. Only got a few days on them this season however. Many good carving days on hard boots though.

I did ride a few powder days on hard boots on a 182 Alpine Punk Afterburner st and a Virus Vampire. They worked OK, but I still prefer the soft boot set up in the pow.

May get in one last powder day Monday at Loveland.

[Beckmann AG]

Careful there, M’L0rd. Don’t go projecting your values onto the commonfolk…:)

 

 

The ‘root cause’ of what you’re seeing is akin to the Lernaean Hydra.

Two heads of which are complacency and economics.  

 

 

Traditionally, alpine skiing was the domain of the adventurous and physically capable.

Equipment evolution during the late 60’s, early 70’s decreased the risk of severe physical/psychological injury, especially to those less suited. As a result, skiing experienced unprecedented growth.

 

The same scenario played out in snowboarding when: 

1. Resorts realized the market potential and permitted a ‘fringe’ activity on their hallowed property. 

2. Board construction moved from marine plywood to composites, with shapes more suited to use on lift-served slopes.

3.High backs and buckles replaced fruit leather bindings with webbing and Fastex clips. 

4. Footwear offered more support and warmth than conscripted Sorel pacs or sneakers.

5. Inserts replaced the ‘one-shot’  binding mounts.

 

Improved acces to a greater consumer base clearly raises the odds of viability.  

As does a more diverse gene pool.  But that's another post.

 

 

Alpine sport has become, and will likely remain, a pursuit for the financially capable.  This alone limits the possible number of wallets from which the market can extract sustenance. Combine that with athletic capability, and you’re dealing with a rapidly shrinking pool of consumers. 

 

Resort access isn't getting any cheaper. 

 

The alternative then, is to persist in making everything ‘easier’ for those with the means, if not the physicality or dedication.  

The low hanging fruit, #1-5 above, has been picked.

What’s left is selectively reducing the ‘negative’ feedback the board sends to the rider, easing the transition from ‘never-ever’ to ‘kinda-sorta’, and from there to Heelside Warrior.

And also aligning the means of ‘control’ to the anchor and pivot movements so common to everyday experience.

 

If you fall down less, and have less new stuff to learn prior to 'storming the castle', you’re more likely to stay involved, and more likely to leave open the wallet.

 

And that’s what matters.

 

Remove camber, slow the rebound, and blunt the edge contact. Reduce the energy storage/return capacity of the board to the point that ’success’ is all but assured. Combine that with a riding model that emphasizes overly complicated sequences of muscular activity, rather than finesse and touch. 

The culture already assumes a few hours of physical toil, and then you’re learning on your own. Taking advantage of that misguided mindset is a no-brainer.

 

Everyone knows that effort equals results, right?  Try harder, flex more, you’ll get there…

 

What you’re left with is something often lacking in aesthetic appeal.  Riders that continually ‘try harder’ generally succeed at limiting their future options, rather than developing the skill and understanding that lead to a more 'stylish' presentation.

The truly effortless, physical performance is seldom an act of brute force. More often, it's a matter of timing and touch.

...And that's a hard sell to a consumer base with no basis for comparison.

 

Sad as it may be, there will always be more of these:

 

and fewer of these:

 

From the perspective of ‘the industry’ there’s no reason to affect that ratio.

Dollars are dollars, regardless of where they originate.

 

“The grabbing hands, grab all they can.

 All for themselves.  

After all, 

it’s a competitive world

Everything counts in large amounts.”

Edited April 26, 2015 by Beckmann AG

[utahcarver]

It happens in all walks of life. Kooks. Kooks gonna be there no matter what. You and I both have been kooks at one time or another. We all have to learn where we are in life. And, where we fit in. If the problem persists, then your argument is valid. You  cannot stop people from being themselves. 

 

Mark

[st_lupo]

I was visiting my parents in Albuquerque this last winter (these were still pre-hardboot days for me) and went up to Santa Fe for a day of excellent snow.  Given that  my board at home (Super Model) was 16 years old and my boots are older I wanted to rent the "performance package" and see what the bleeding edge of snowboard tech has become.  I asked for something fast and their reply was "oh yeah, you want a Custom Flying-V".  When I got the board the edges were about as sharp as a crayon so I asked for a bit of a tuneup, much to the displeasure of the techs working in ski rental. 

 

Then I tried the board on the snow... Well, I'd had a Custom a long time ago and liked it (hangs in my kitchen even). I'd even contemplated buying a new custom to replace my aging Super Model, but when I got this "performance" rental on the snow, the board is pretty much summed up as "meh".  Whenever I wanted to turn the board felt like it just shrugged and went "meh, whatever".  I've pretty much always carved turns (in a soft boot way), that's just considered good technique with the group of guys that I grew up riding with.  My Craig Kelly did it, my Asym Air Did it, My Custom and Super Models did it.  This Flying-V however was a different thing entirely, it would hold an edge, eventually, but the transitions in between turns somehow had me picturing a dog dragging it's ass sideways across the grass.   At the end of the day I returned the board to the rental area and bitched a bit about them foisting this off as "performance" equipment.  They gave me an intro to rocker and why it is superior to everything, including space-flight.   That night I did some research on just what rocker was and just kind of shook my head. 

 

Two months later I was on my local hill in newly purchased UPZ RC10s and an F2 Silberpfeil with no intention of going back to softboots.  In some ways this setup feels like the "good old days" of snowboarding again.  The equipment is hard to find, everybody looks at you like a freak, and there is a sense of community between the riders.  I've long ago done away with prejudice against skiers (at least the good ones) and now I actually feel more kinship to the folks carving on alpine and telemark skis than I do with 90% of snowboarders. 

[philw]

There's an analogy with swimming - 95% of people at the average pool can't swim freestyle and can't turn. It takes only a few hours to learn either, and you have the pleasure of grace for the rest of your life. Yet most people don't bother, preferring instead to splash about a bit.

 

I've nothing much in common with those people in a pool, or with most snowboarders. I enjoy being good at the sports I do - that's almost the entire point of it, to me. Most people don't see it that way. Most equipment is for most people to have their fun with.

 

 

[pmorita]

Couldn't agree more with Beckmann AG.  There are economics and the appearance of innovation to get people to buy new equipment. 

To add to this:

 

- What's wrong with making equipment that helps beginners begin?  Haven't we all suffered in the early days with first generation equipment that was lacking.  Think wooden bases and no metal edges.  My first boards were Burton Backyards and Performer Woodys with Sorrel boots and high tops.  To look at it now, entry level riders have it pretty good.  Rocker boards and shorter lengths make it easier to get started.  Granted, we had to live through the K2 Clicker days but overall, things have gotten better for beginners in terms of gear.  After that, things drop off pretty quickly.  I agree that the mass market manufacturers are doing a bad job of supporting the progression of riding, unless you live the park all day.  I struggle to find a good camber board and turn to Coiler or Donek, or find something classic on eBay.  I've tried the new Lib Techs with Magnatraction and bawammy rocker and still say nothing beats a longer cambered board of reasonable width for free riding.

 

- Lesson programs stink.  I'm sure we have all spent time on the bunny slope because friends and family can't get a decent experience in the beginner group lessons.  I have brought many people to the mountain to introduce them to the sport.  From the rental line to the lunch line it's a rough time for someone just getting started.  Hopefully others have had more luck with beginner lessons as I have pretty much dismissed letting the pros try to promote the sport to new riders.  Skiers definitely have an edge here, no pun intended.  With better instructors and programs, they are geared up to keep bringing new people in the sport.  Especially kids and racers.  If learning directors don't address the instruction problem for snowboards, we are going to keep loosing the chance for new blood.  This is especially true for intermediate and advance instruction.  Where can I send my friends for a carving clinic other than SES and some Pure Boarding events?

 

In the meantime, isn't the responsibility ours?  I send my annual letter to Lib Tech begging for a board that suits old guys like me.  I spend lots of time on the slopes with friends, my wife and kids as there are no options for good instruction where I live.  I send many notes to the school directors and have conversations when I can asking about this. 

 

Great thread pointing out how people that have been riding for years are lacking in style.  Would hate to think that snowboarding goes the way of Rollerblading or Windsurfing.

Now get out there and show someone how to ride that Tanker 205.

[Allee]

You are not high.  I see ugly riding every day, be it on boards or motorcycles.  Cheap equipment allows halfwits to partake in something that would otherwise be unobtainable.  To make a parallel between bikes and boards- you'll almost never see a dipshit on a Kessler or a Ducati, but you see plenty on Romes and GSX-Rs.  

 

I am offended by this. I like both my Anthem, and GSXR's, even though I only own an SV650.

 

I know what you mean though. My last day riding was with some jibber-girls from my CrossFit box, who are all riding rockered Burtons and are terrified of groomers because their boards simply won't go in a straight line. Consequently, they're all pet-the-dog butt and bent in half at the waist, and it's just awful to watch. I don't get it. They're all about "shredding in the powder", but you get a boatload more groomer days than pow days in a season - why not have a board that will do a reasonable job of both? Needless to say, I will not be getting rid of my cambered Anthem any time soon.

 

[Vizman]

Fascinating thread and some really good points.. As someone who is returning to snowboarding after a long break - the last time was in '97- I've been really surprised at how little the core techniques of turning, control and aesthetics have moved on in the mass market, indeed it would seem in many ways they have gone backwards. Outside of the carving community there seems to be little interest in on piste control, grace and the simple art of holding an edge.  

 

Most people either haven't seen anything different or don't want to put the time in to learn these techniques, and as discussed the market seems to be driving things in the other direction.

 

I asked a similar question on a UK skiing thread recently - 'Freeride tour and extreme skiing - ugly or majestic' - http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=118236. Well worth a read through if you have the time.  With both skiing or boarding what I am always drawn to first is good technique and then let the jumps and drops grow from there, that's what excites me. But in this 'Red Bull' era it appears good riding technique is far less important than your ability to chuck yourself off something.  It's a pity because I believe the two can go hand in hand, it just seems that for the moment there is no one in the mainstream who wants to put the time in to develop that level of control in their riding. You can see it in most snowboarding video's now, they fast forward the boarding in between each 'feature' as if it's of little importance! Or worst still just edit it out.

 

The discussion proved very interesting, with two camps developing, those that hanker after a more controlled form of skiing/ boarding and those that think straight lining a massive mountain is the pinnacle of technique and is the barometer to measure everything by.  It also mirrors this discussion in reflecting that whilst modern equipment may make higher level riding easier for the many, it also restricts the ability to advance beyond that. Yes, you can go higher, faster, bigger etc. but you can't get the edge control of full camber ski/ board that you need to progress even further.

 

Beckman Ag I really like your comments about the difference between just 'trying harder' and developing a better understanding and mastery of the underlying technique (and equipment required). For me it's a bit zen or 'wax on, wax off'.  Effortless comes with both strength and mastery of the technique and that's where the hours of practice need to be put in.

 

Hopefully snowboarding will start to develop in this was, as there are only so many ways you can throw yourself off a jump (not to deny there isn't skill in that too) but it will take a new face to introduce that to the mass market, a pro that values aesthetics as much as the 'wow' factor. Oh and getting over this obsession with rocker equipment, yes there is a time and place for it, but for **** sake not everywhere!

Edited April 27, 2015 by Vizman

[lordmetroland]

The ‘root cause’ of what you’re seeing is akin to the Lernaean Hydra.

An invitation to visit Wikipedia. That almost always results in amusing tangents, not the least of which is this picture:

 

"Henry IV as Hercules vanquishing the Lernaean Hydra" and also starring in the revival of La Cage aux Folles.

 

What’s left is selectively reducing the ‘negative’ feedback the board sends to the rider, easing the transition from ‘never-ever’ to ‘kinda-sorta’, and from there to Heelside Warrior.

Remove camber, slow the rebound, and blunt the edge contact. Reduce the energy storage/return capacity of the board to the point that ’success’ is all but assured..”

This is pretty much exactly what I was trying to say, but better. What got me started thinking about this whole equipment-retarding-progression thing was my own experience. It took about five good days on my Donek Hazelwood to realize it was teaching me lessons I hadn't learned in 25 years of riding. On my most recent boards, I'd been tipping them up on edge and letting the sidecut do the work. The Hazelwood turns modest inputs into modest performance. But riding it more aggressively brings out its personality. I'm not sure my dear departed Arbor A-frame or Lib Tech Skunk Ape would have responded the same way. I suspect my days of buy mass-marketed boards has come to an end.

 

Consequently, they're all pet-the-dog butt and bent in half at the waist, and it's just awful to watch.

 

Hilarity. I'm sure I'll think about this on the lift next time.

[lordmetroland]

I've been really surprised at how little the core techniques of turning, control and aesthetics have moved on in the mass market, indeed it would seem in many ways they have gone backwards.

 

The discussion proved very interesting, with two camps developing, those that hanker after a more controlled form of skiing/ boarding and those that think straight lining a massive mountain is the pinnacle of technique and is the barometer to measure everything by. 

 

I've had similar thoughts. There was some real noise about Furberg boards a couple years ago ("Incomparable off piste!" "Carves great!"). Their site had video of a guy riding an off-piste snowfield/cliff face with truly laborious, awkward technique that didn't do the marketing any favors and made the board look like it didn't do much of anything very well. And, as breathtaking as Xavier de Le Rue's descents are, would it kill him to throw in a turn or two? Given the circumstances, maybe it would. But I still look at those snowfields he's tearing up and can't help thinking each forsaken turn is a lost opportunity.

[b0ardski]

when I first saw a board with ptex and edges I thought innovation was great, but it wasn't until I actually rode a board with camber and "ski type" construction in '87 that I thought a snowboard could be anything but a backhill toy, let alone a comparable option to skis.

Anyone that thinks rocker is the latest greatest thing is a noob with no understanding of the snowboard history, that means every saleskid in every board shop. The industry naturally chases the easy money, cheap to build plastic crap with high profit margins.

 

I watched aasi break out of psia and the approved instruction devolve into gorilla body position and duckstance norm over the years, with all emphasis put on spinning and jibbing, sad. Forward facing stances are actively discouraged, a disservice to the entire sport imo. Yes, you can carve in duckstance, inefficiently, but that's not what snowboards are for according to the industry.

The "evolution" of cam/rock profiles, rocker between the feet and camber out front of the binders, is meant for riding just the tip of the board for flatland tricks, reminds me of the "jibkids" before parks existed cutting off the tips to reduce swing weight for spinning.

 

Oh well, I embrace my old codger fuddy duddiness and think that "innovative" camber will come back into vogue just like rocker did.

Edited April 27, 2015 by b0ardski

[b0ardski]

. But I still look at those snowfields he's tearing up and can't help thinking each forsaken turn is a lost opportunity.

totally agree, I've always thought that since before snowboards were in "ski" movies.

[Vizman]

And, as breathtaking as Xavier de Le Rue's descents are, would it kill him to throw in a turn or two? Given the circumstances, maybe it would. But I still look at those snowfields he's tearing up and can't help thinking each forsaken turn is a lost opportunity.

 

That's a +1 from me too. 

 

Infact with all these extreme decants, I know if I'd taken two or more hours to climb to the top of some great mountain, I'd certainly try taking longer than 30 secs to get down it! Missing out all that snow and potential turns just seems like such a waste. But what surprises me the most is how many people out there don't see it that way. I've had lots of discussions about it and to many it's all about the speed, the 'gnar, regardless of what it looks like. The straighter the better it seems - to me that's just a waste of a good mountain.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Vizman

[piusthedrcarve]

I found this topic interesting since I find decambering on alpine boards do same effect as the problem stated above.

 

Recent decks from many our sport manufacturers now mostly produces decambered, new nose shaped decks to 'Auto-initiate' turns. When it gets tilted on an edge, it finds carving line "semi-automatically', if it is not a race deck.  I appreciate the technology and shapes when I am on steep & narrow trails (like black diamond) since I don't usually find enough time to do decamber and release while I am doing 30-40 mph on the slopes like that. So, I slightly changed my forms like (JG or Ripturn) to accommodate for such steep trails.  I noticed the alpine snowboarding beginner takes advantage of the decamber and having hard time to understand 'decambering' by lowering center of mass. I totally get it for racing decks for their usages though. 

 

So, I cleared decambered alpine decks from my quiver, except one, and acquired good old camber boards.  The reason that I kept one (SG SL) was it gives much confident on any kinda of slopes and conditions.  That confident boost thing could be what makes beginners to progress. I don't know. But for me, it is going to be ridden on imperfect condition.

 

By that reasoning, I am afraid I may find the a lot more 'ugly alpine riding' few years from now from alpine riding beginners who started on new shaped decks.

[markbvt]

You are not high.  I see ugly riding every day, be it on boards or motorcycles.  Cheap equipment allows halfwits to partake in something that would otherwise be unobtainable.  To make a parallel between bikes and boards- you'll almost never see a dipshit on a Kessler or a Ducati, but you see plenty on Romes and GSX-Rs.  

 

I see I'm not the only one who's transitioned to motorcycle mode now that it's above freezing outside. That said...

 

That having been said... Kessler and Ducati can get away with the same solid colors year after year because the people that buy them understand the value of the technology and racing pedigree contained within.  Rome and Suzuki change graphics and paint colors yearly or nearly so because they're catering to a less discerning demographic that's worried more about image than uncompromising performance. 

 

I would argue that this claim can't be made about Ducati anymore. They're very successfully marketing the lifestyle/fashion side of the sport, and drawing in plenty of well-heeled young buyers who love looking hip but haven't a clue how to ride. Triumph has begun going after this market as well, though less aggressively.

 

Thing is, fashions don't last...

 

Oh well, I embrace my old codger fuddy duddiness and think that "innovative" camber will come back into vogue just like rocker did.

 

Speaking of fashions not lasting, I think it's only a matter of time before snowboard companies realize that a lot of kids don't think it's cool anymore, and they'd be best off marketing boards at lifelong riders as well as n00bs. Step back and take a look at the companies comprising the mainstream snowboard market -- you've got the ski companies who make snowboards on the side like Rossi and K2, you've got the companies that have always gone after the freestyle kiddies like Lib Tech and Never Summer, and then you've got Burton. As much as people like to crap on Burton, they're the one major surviving snowboard-specific company that always made a wide range of boards for different riding styles (their abandoning of the alpine market notwithstanding, but that could easily be an entirely separate thread); Burton is the company that ran this perfect ad back in 1995:

 

And despite all the industry trends, Burton is the one mainstream snowboard company that's still making a selection of fully-cambered snowboard models. Naturally they need to make what sells best, but they're run by a core group of dedicated riders who know what really works best and will continue to produce boards for more advanced riders. (I'm convinced that they left the alpine market in part because they knew there were specialist companies like Prior, Coiler, and Donek who could serve the needs of alpine riders better.) That rental Custom Flying V notwithstanding -- they do still make the traditional cambered Custom and Custom X as well.

 

My prediction: as snowboarding's cool factor fades, Burton will be the first mainstream snowboard company to begin actively reasserting the benefits of camber and other "classic" technologies.

 

--mark

[That Guy...]

I am offended by this. I like both my Anthem, and GSXR's, even though I only own an SV650.

 

 

 

You say "only" like the SV is a transitional bike.  I would take an SV650 over any inline.  Also, re: your offense...  are you legitimately offended, or is that a tongue- in- cheek comment? 

[Allee]

It's absolutely tongue in cheek. And the SV is a stellar bike, and has handed a serious fright to more than one macho sport rider in my meetup group.

[snowmatic]

pmorita: Would hate to think that snowboarding goes the way of Rollerblading or Windsurfing.

Rocker constructions on skis and snowboards helps the industry to go straight that way.

It's easy to ride down a good slope on such boards, even on higher speed. But that's it.

Snowboarding and skiing became better, faster and easy in access to anybody. Otherwise moving a board on snow became more boring like never before. Boring things are interchangeable to other sports.

Snowboard labels are talking from innovations and progressions, while sales on market brake away. In Europe some labels had a minus of 10-20% on skis and a minus of around 30% on snowboards for winter 2014/15. There are many reasons for it, but one thing of it we discuss here on thread.

[Vizman]

 

My prediction: as snowboarding's cool factor fades, Burton will be the first mainstream snowboard company to begin actively reasserting the benefits of camber and other "classic" technologies.

 

--mark

 

I hope you're right Mark, it would make such a refreshing change. 

[kieran]

if you learn the hard way, the hard way gets easier. if you learn the easy way, the hard way stays hard.

[That Guy...]

It's absolutely tongue in cheek. And the SV is a stellar bike, and has handed a serious fright to more than one macho sport rider in my meetup group.

 

I was about to say... I'd take an SV over any inline any day of the week.  I keep wondering why I don't have an SV in my fleet yet.  It's like, the Miata of motorcycles; any question that starts with "which bike would be good for..." is always answered with "SV."  

[That Guy...]

 

- What's wrong with making equipment that helps beginners begin?  

 

Nothing at all.  But like they say, you'll never progress if you spend all season on the bunny slope.  That's what ends up happening- they buy some beginner- coddling band aid and spend their entire progression on it.  At some point pretty early on- usually shortly after turns are first successfully linked- that beginner board becomes a hindrance.  Besides, it's not like snowboarding is really that hard to begin with, even on a fully cambered board. 

Edited April 27, 2015 by That Guy...

[b0ardski]

Nothing at all.  But like they say, you'll never progress if you spend all season on the bunny slope.  That's what ends up happening- they buy some beginner- coddling band aid and spend their entire progression on it.  At some point pretty early on- usually shortly after turns are first successfully linked- that beginner board becomes a hindrance.  Besides, it's not like snowboarding is really that hard to begin with, even on a fully cambered board. 

with -15/+15, progression means heelside bulldozing the snow off steep slopes under the lift

I like to make S turns inside bulldozer tracks "just to piss'em off"

Edited April 28, 2015 by b0ardski