patmoore Posted April 20, 2013 Report Share Posted April 20, 2013 Hate to hear stories like this. Sad 5 backcountry snowboarders killed in avalanche on Colorado's Loveland Pass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeho730 Posted April 21, 2013 Report Share Posted April 21, 2013 I'm getting backpack with airbag to prevent this.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gcarve Posted April 21, 2013 Report Share Posted April 21, 2013 They paid the ultimate price. It sounds like they might have been a little too close together, as they were all caught in the avi. It's lucky even one of them managed to dig out, and call for help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big mario Posted April 21, 2013 Report Share Posted April 21, 2013 They paid the ultimate price. It sounds like they might have been a little too close together, as they were all caught in the avi. It's lucky even one of them managed to dig out, and call for help. It was a huge slide, 200 yards wide, 350 yards long, they all had beacons. sounds like the whole face of the mountain let go. Loveland resort had one inbounds around 10 years ago when all of superbowl off of the ridge went clear down to rock. Kevin and I where commenting on the back country last week after seeing how spooky the snow inbouunds was. condolences to the loved ones mario Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted April 21, 2013 Report Share Posted April 21, 2013 I'm getting backpack with airbag to prevent this.... Your avi airbag isn't going to prevent this. It was an 8 ft crown! You don't pull the handle and a force field surrounds you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeho730 Posted April 21, 2013 Report Share Posted April 21, 2013 (edited) Your avi airbag isn't going to prevent this. It was an 8 ft crown! You don't pull the handle and a force field surrounds you... Absolutely better than nothing. Pro-skier survived avalanche while two other were killed: http://www.budgettravel.com/blog/stevens-pass-avalanche-this-air-bag-backpack-saved-a-life,12223/ 3 killed while one with airbag survived: http://www.npr.org/2012/02/20/147164902/science-behind-avalanche-air-bag-saves-skier http://www.elysesaugstad.com/2012/11/abs-avalanche-airbag-backpack-review.html Edited April 21, 2013 by leeho730 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
floBoot Posted April 21, 2013 Report Share Posted April 21, 2013 They were on an adrenaline adventure.... very sad news indeed...:( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted April 21, 2013 Report Share Posted April 21, 2013 Buddy... No need to feed me the stats. I spend a lot of time out there and own a pack with an airbag. I think it's safe to say, though, that if you had one on in a slide of this size, it might still be attached to your torso... Your legs, arms and head would likely be found at a later date. There are many people out there who believe that airbags "prevent" things... Sure, it might prevent you from dying in certain circumstances, but they don't prevent slides, or the things that go along with them, like getting strained through the trees, falling off a cliff, choking on a plug, or getting caught in anything with enough kinetic energy to tear your limbs off. People have to think in the same way when they wear one as not, because they are next-to-nothing when your timing is wrong. Sorry... I just don't like the word "prevent" when used in this context. I guess I'm picky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted April 21, 2013 Report Share Posted April 21, 2013 Toys won't "prevent" you from dying in a slide. I would take a look at a few slide images to see if you can't work out why that is. These things simply don't provide the safety you're implying that they provide, and they may increase your objective risk if you think they do. The mountain doesn't know or care that you've bought all the fancy stuff. Wearing an airbag in bed would also be "absolutely better than nothing". I'm sure you can see that argument's without merit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big mario Posted April 21, 2013 Report Share Posted April 21, 2013 (edited) Guys, no need to get into a flame war here, this is a huge tragedy. As I understand from the news reports that I have read, and being able to see the fracture line above timberline, which was above this doomed group, as well as the drainage it funneled into, there was not much in gear that would have saved them. Bottom line is they made some really bad choices, and paid the ultimate price. Lets be respectful of that. mario ps At least one of the deceased had an avalung, if not more, and another had an airbag. Ironically, they where all part of an event to promote backcountry safety and awareness. Here is a link to the most informative article I could find: http://www.dailycamera.com/news/boulder/ci_23073036/ryan-novack-boulder-snowboarder-killed-avalanche Edited April 21, 2013 by big mario Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted April 22, 2013 Report Share Posted April 22, 2013 Oh my gosh I know the survivor. This is the first article I've seen with the names posted.....made me gasp. Yes, very sad that this happened but there has been numerous warnings about the avalanche danger up here, especially with all of the new heavy wet snow. Truly a loss to everyone, including the snow sports industry. I think they were all reps. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.oldsnowboards.com Posted April 22, 2013 Report Share Posted April 22, 2013 fracture line profile of the crown of the avalanche, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeho730 Posted April 22, 2013 Report Share Posted April 22, 2013 (edited) First of all, my condolence to the family members who are affected by the accident... The number one cause of death during Avalanche is suffocation (up to 75%, http://www.ravallirepublic.com/lifestyles/health-med-fit/article_a0b12a3a-237b-11e0-a516-001cc4c002e0.html), blunt trauma being the second. And the chance of survival is related to how fast victims can be dug out (http://pistehors.com/backcountry/wiki/Avalanches/Avalanche-Survival-Curve). I mean, it seems that the sole survivor that was dug out in 2 hours was not shredded (I meant no disrespect to the survivor) when faced with such avalanche.... The other two victims who were buried 12 feet deep were tangled with one another, but not dismembered... It is because humans are remarkably resilient... And flotation device ensures that victims of trauma are found early and can be sent to hospital for treatment... Airbag will not prevent all deaths from all avalanche incidents, but nevertheless it helps rescuers recover victims faster which improves chance of survival can prevent death.... I'm definitely getting one, BCA 32L one. There is no doubt that brain is our number one weapon against avalanche, but it always pays to be prepared. For example the group in Loveland accident were no beginners but expert boarders/skiers who were well prepared and thought they were crossing on relatively safe area... Like car accident, no matter how carefully we drive, there will always be accidents and seat belts and airbags will improve our chance of survival, because unexpected things can and do happen... I' like to recommend the following link: Canadian Avalanche Air Bag study http://blog.oplopanax.ca/2012/11/canadian-avalanche-air-bag-study/ Big mario, sorry the article doesn't contain info regarding whether the group had equipped airbag or not, doesn't state it. The group was super careful when they were riding, riding at the bottom and fairly spaced out... Probably what you mean by is that Loveland ski patrollers are equipped with air bags? (http://www.mammutavalanchesafety.com/2012/12/loveland-ski-patrol-adopts-avalanche.html) Who knows... In the future airbag may become a standard equipment for backcountry guides... Edited April 22, 2013 by leeho730 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big mario Posted April 22, 2013 Report Share Posted April 22, 2013 Leeho, I called it an airbag, but itwas called a float pack in the article. here is the actual quote: Boulay said he had been buried for an hour. "Still I was hoping," Bennett said. "Some of them had an Avalung. Another had a Float pack. We were hoping someone was still alive." it was fairly deep in the article Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
floBoot Posted April 22, 2013 Report Share Posted April 22, 2013 Guys, no need to get into a flame war here, this is a huge tragedy. As I understand from the news reports that I have read, and being able to see the fracture line above timberline, which was above this doomed group, as well as the drainage it funneled into, there was not much in gear that would have saved them. Bottom line is they made some really bad choices, and paid the ultimate price. Lets be respectful of that.mario ps At least one of the deceased had an avalung, if not more, and another had an airbag. Ironically, they where all part of an event to promote backcountry safety and awareness. Here is a link to the most informative article I could find: http://www.dailycamera.com/news/boulder/ci_23073036/ryan-novack-boulder-snowboarder-killed-avalanche one of the reasons I like this site, is that it is rare for 'flaming':) Although Leeho used the word 'prevent'...I didn't take it literally..... ...these guys done their best...although a sad outcome. Maybe this site has a backcountry advice section...i'm still finding out the depths of info on offer here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softbootsurfer Posted April 22, 2013 Report Share Posted April 22, 2013 when you go out in conditions that are extremely prone to avalanche and pass below loaded slopes above hoping they will not come down you are rolling the dice no matter your level of expertise...you can pit yourself silly, throw charges and wear airbags and body armour, really so sorry for the individuals here and their loved ones...we here in Aspen have lost two patrolmen with years of experience over the last couple of years to sketchy early season layers...the conditions can be labeled one way and act another way altogether...or you can be on a listed exposure that is safe and be taken out by a slide from a slope that is listed as extreme because you are crossing say in a draw perhaps even a half mile below...not saying people should not venture out there but that sometimes and often many times here in Colorado it can come down to just being in the wrong place at the wrong time...again so sorry for all the Loved ones involved here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted April 22, 2013 Report Share Posted April 22, 2013 when you go out in conditions that are extremely prone to avalanche and pass below loaded slopes abovehoping they will not come down you are rolling the dice no matter your level of expertise...you can pit yourself silly, throw charges and wear airbags and body armour, really so sorry for the individuals here and their loved ones...we here in Aspen have lost two patrolmen with years of experience over the last couple of years to sketchy early season layers...the conditions can be labeled one way and act another way altogether...or you can be on a listed exposure that is safe and be taken out by a slide from a slope that is listed as extreme because you are crossing say in a draw perhaps even a half mile below...not saying people should not venture out there but that sometimes and often many times here in Colorado it can come down to just being in the wrong place at the wrong time...again so sorry for all the Loved ones involved here... Burried, crushed, mixed or smothered an avalanche can do it all. Early snow or late snow pack has the ability to kill. If you haven't invested enough time or effort to understand the snow you are on you shouldn't play on it. Just hope the nanny state mentality doesn't prevent those willing to invest in the effort are not denied the opportunity. The only one that can judge your safety is you, understand, educate and practice .The people you play with shouldn't expose themselves to the same risk you do at the same time or they will be in no position to help or be helped if you are all taken out together. The best equipment in the worst conditions is no guarantee of positive outcome. Don't put yourself and others in harms way by exposing yourself to the worst conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeho730 Posted April 22, 2013 Report Share Posted April 22, 2013 (edited) big mario, True that.... One guy equipped with air bag didn't survive... others equipped with avalung (breathing device) didn't survive... Canadian Air Bag Study also noted that people still died with air bag.... Although survival rate increased from 56% to 83%... Beneficial or not? People should make up their own mind in regards to this... Well I'll use the phrase "potentially save" instead of "prevent"... I'm getting one... Backcountry is a very dangerous place... Need all the help I can get to potentially save my life... 83% sounds much better than 56%... As I said before... Brain is our number one weapon against avalanche (i.e. avoid getting caught in avalanche at all cost) but nevertheless backcountry is a very dangerous place and and I am going backcountry boarding so I need all the help I can get... always need to think the worse case scenario... Perhaps I'm super freaked by avalanche enough to invest $500-plus just for the pack just for a bit of chance of survival and potentially save my own life (Canadian study suggests one additional life could have been saved with every additional 3.7 victims equipped with avalanche balloon packs), but each to their own... And I kinda agree with lowrider.... The mentality of nanny state is becoming more prevalent... Perhaps in the future all patrol/backcountry guides/heli operators may need to be equipped with airbag pack as their standard equipment and insurance companies may refuse claims if snowboarders/skiers are found skiing in backcountry area without airbag pack... Insurance companies are especially pedantic with stuff like that.... Bugger... Edited April 22, 2013 by leeho730 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeho730 Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 BTW... I'll never tell people to wear airbag or not.... I will PERSONALLY wear airbag pack, but we are adults and we should make our own choices, calculate risks... I believe in free will... It's like helmet.... Wearing helmet is beneficial.... And I have argued benefits of Helmets a few years ago here.... But in no way I'm going to tell people to always wear it while skiing/boarding... In no way I'm going to say those died should have worn airbag packs... They have made their choices and I respect that... If people decided not to wear helmets or airbag pack after calculation or risks or due to personal preference, I respect that also... In my post in no way I have opined that everyone who go to backcountry SHOULD wear airbag pack... Or snowboarding in general.... Snowboarding is a hazardous activity, but that doesn't mean people have right to tell us not to snowboard... What can I say I believe even Queen herself cannot force us to wear helmets or airbag packs or forbid us from snowboarding... What got me was... probably a misinformation that airbag pack does not benefit.... Call me picky or pedantic... Respect to you all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 The media have a very interesting approach to snow sports accidents, some of which they report and some of which they do not. They tend to have "agendas", like "all risk is controllable", or "safety gear is good". What they report is heavily affected by confirmation bias. So you don't hear about most incidents because the riders did not fit the "agenda" of the news people. You can't use news reports as "evidence", it simply isn't good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kieran Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 What can I say I believe even Queen herself cannot force us to wear helmets or airbag packs or forbid us from snowboarding...lucky you. our politicians are trying to say that people should not be allowed to go out on the mountains in the winter because there are so many deaths from falls and avalanches. this season there has been a high bodycount unfortunately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 lucky you. our politicians are trying to say that people should not be allowed to go out on the mountains in the winter because there are so many deaths from falls and avalanches. this season there has been a high bodycount unfortunately. They whine on when small numbers of people die in interesting ways, yet they ignore the 6 killed every day here on the roads. I don't have the horse-riding stats to hand, but that's more dangerous than almost all "adventure" sports, so they'll be needing to ban it before they get to us. I don't think there's much risk of that. Although our media almost took vaccination back two hundred years, so perhaps it's unwise to underestimate their power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 This slide happened right near the ski area where I normally ride (Loveland Basin). The slide occurred on Saturday. I was at Loveland on Sunday. By most accounts these riders were well trained, aware and well equipped. If this could happen to them, it could happen to most any backcountry skier/rider. I watched the local TV news last night to see if they had more coverage. They had a lot of coverage of events in Boston (~2000 miles away) but not one mention of the avalanche. If I want to know about national stories, I'll watch national news. When I watch local news, I'm looking for local stories. I honestly believe that if this were 5 skiers killed in an avalanche, it would have received more local coverage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowmatic Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 They had realy bad chance! In cases like this, avi airbag wouldn't help. The power of snow is sometimes too massive. Study of snow pack can prevent many disaster. Indeed, the blowfish technic would help in most cases of avalanches. So on finest freeride days after fresh dump around 90% of all freeriders (new school ski and for sure snowboard too) are still on backpacks with airbag now. I'm talking from locations on the European Alps, where beside the local and domestic riders all that Norwegians and Swedish are riding. Thats a big problem for the lift companys. Gondolas which are capable to carry 150 persons, can take with now maybe 105-120 freeriders only. The freeriders needs more room in the gondolas, which is reducing transportation capacity. Even more, the new blowfish technic works as a risk-shift well. So avalanche airbaging is now very popular on the European Alps. On days with 2 ft. of fresh snow on the mountain like on next photo, freeriders downhill now every face on the mountains. They know in cases of disaster they can pull the trigger, even on risk level 3-medium like on that day riding this flank. This northface here isn't realy that flat, but it's a just a standard route - and for sure pure fun to ride - but basicaly snow pack should be good! The gondola-station is around 1800 ft. lower, as the snow on foreground. The city where finest downhill through forest ends, is about 4000 ft. lower. If anyone make it on slope, they will find diamonds half the way, but double diamonds all the way too/only - up to an angle of 45 degrees steep groomers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 Evidently, this was a slab avalanche. It seems unlikely that an airbag would have been able to float anyone to the surface. I think they got crushed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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