charliechocolate Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 Back on topic though, does the "fear" of the first time sway people away from even attempting it? No more than it would on skis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinpa Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 No more than it would on skis. Not so sure about that.... I think snowboarding definatly has that reputation that the first day hurts a lot... More falls than on skis. I had a snowboard examiner ask a group once, "Is it possible to teach a beginner snowboard lesson without any crashes?" I don't know, but I also think that since balance on a board is harder than on skis even if a beginner were not to crash at all, the muscles would still be pretty sore by the end of the day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allee Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 Not so sure about that.... I think snowboarding definatly has that reputation that the first day hurts a lot... More falls than on skis. I suspect so. I have a pic of me carving as my desktop at work, and I've three people comment that they tried snowboarding, but it was too hard and it hurt - so they never went back. Two of them ski now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 I suspect so. I have a pic of me carving as my desktop at work, and I've three people comment that they tried snowboarding, but it was too hard and it hurt - so they never went back. Two of them ski now.Try self-taught on a Burton Elite. I ate **** pretty routinely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinpa Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 (edited) That's what I started on too.... The 140. Once I realized that a little speed made turning so much easier, I did ok! I really don't remember any hard crashes though. I just remember the determination to be better than my brother cause it was his board I learned on! By the end of the season I could kick the tail(?) around on blues.... Linked turns? Yeah, something like that..... And back to the topic again.... Maybe if AASI didn't discourage many of the "adult" (ok, I use the word lightly) instructors with experience, maybe there would be more beginners that could have successful first days? Edited January 30, 2013 by kinpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 Stances.... Average, few times a year snowboarder, doesn't have will/skill or even awareness, to explore different stances and find out what works the best for him and his style of riding. Shops and rentals set the stuff duck, instrutors mostly ride duck, school managment is pushing duck, so it is not really "what client wants", but what is served... Now lo and behold, the dreaded duck is not necesserilly such a horrible thing - it has pros and cons. Last sunday I had a guy for a private, solid rider, some inherent quircks. He currently rides duck. In the long term, he wants to switch to mild forward stance for freeriding and wants hard boot setup for groomers. However, on the given day he wanted to work on improving his switch riding, basic spins, smooth out the riding in general. Out of curtesy I set myself 25 / -10 (on hard boots and freeride board ;) ). To my surprise, my heel side carve was actually better than my normal teaching 30 / 5 stance - just opposite from what I expected... For an absolute beginner, the duck is actually better - it offers a very centered stance, improving the ballance and getting up from snow. It also makes the first side slipping and falling leaf drills easier. Possibly, the first isolated turns are easier... Now, from the very moment that client is ready to start linking the turns, I'd really like to see them on a mild forward stance, just to give a finite feeling of the leading foot. It makes a person less disorientated and more focused on the goal, while it doesn't encourage terminal "leaf". From the intermediate level, when prefferences towards freestyle / freeride / carving should be more clear, one should consider going back to duck for monkey business, staying mild forward for freeride, or more aggressive forward for carving - ultimately leading to h/boots. This is just my vision, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbat Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 Not so sure about that.... I think snowboarding definatly has that reputation that the first day hurts a lot... More falls than on skis.I had a snowboard examiner ask a group once, "Is it possible to teach a beginner snowboard lesson without any crashes?" I don't know, but I also think that since balance on a board is harder than on skis even if a beginner were not to crash at all, the muscles would still be pretty sore by the end of the day! I'd agree that it has that reputation. To answer the question "Is it possible to teach a beginner snowboard lesson without any crashes?", I'd say absolutely. I think most folks over terrain right from the get-go though. All you need for the first steps is about 10 feet of gentle slope to a flat. I like to see students up on the front foot trying to make the board go further rather than huddling in the backseat waiting for the inevitable crash. Increase the length of slope only as their development demands. It's the "instructor" that hikes their student up 20-30 feet for their first straight glides, or thinks that you need to reach some benchmark of speed to execute a J turn that gives snowboarding that reputation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinpa Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 I'd agree that it has that reputation.To answer the question "Is it possible to teach a beginner snowboard lesson without any crashes?", I'd say absolutely. I think most folks over terrain right from the get-go though. All you need for the first steps is about 10 feet of gentle slope to a flat. I like to see students up on the front foot trying to make the board go further rather than huddling in the backseat waiting for the inevitable crash. Increase the length of slope only as their development demands. It's the "instructor" that hikes their student up 20-30 feet for their first straight glides, or thinks that you need to reach some benchmark of speed to execute a J turn that gives snowboarding that reputation. You must teach somewhere with a perfect beginner hill! (jealous) The place where I've taught for the last 5 years presented some unnesessary additional challenges for the beginner. Steep at the top, followed by long relatively flat section with very slight (aka hard to recognize) double fall lines going all over the place. Not only that, but I've had to deal with a rope tow, as well. NOT FUN! They finally got a chair in there this year which majorly narrowed the available terrain to use! The place I teach now also has a rope tow in the beginner area with a very gentle and wide slope. The top of the rope tow is a little steep and has a huge bottleneck issue. Even has a "bench" in the middle where many get stuck if they are going to slow. You are so lucky to have great terrain to teach on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Prokopiw Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 (edited) I agree with much of what BlueB has to say.It is obvious that one his strengths as an instructor is his willingness to adapt his teaching tactics continuously to enhance the experience of his clients.Good on ya BlueB! My own points have centered on my resort/school centered perspective relative to the op's original question.I think snowboarding has done a great job of gathering up the youth market over the years,but now I think the new frontier is (or could be) growth in adult participation.With the economics of resort based sliding sports,it's not like we are going to gather up thousands more participants form the ever shrinking middle class;but we could be gathering up more participants who have become bored with the way they are 'willing' to ski.That used to be one of the main drivers for adult participation,but has now gone by the wayside as the perception and the perpetuation of snowboarding being mostly for kids and jibbers seems to be entrenched in the minds of most adult skiers I meet.Too bad,because the fun awaiting on groomed carving runs and out in the back and side country is there for any grownup willing to make the commitment. Hardbooting presents a unique opportunity for grownups to feel a rush and intensity that also seems age appropriate.I'm all for getting young people into the sport,but we're missing the boat if we forget about developing methods to encourage adults to not just try snowboarding,but to stick with it. One of my own tactics toward this end is to explain that a one-on-one private lesson is like any other investment in one's education,quality of life,health and safety and value.With privates like this I am able to zero in on everything that will ensure that a client gets hooked and keeps coming back for more.Even if the client eventually does not want or need lessons after a certain point I have least least made a 'lifer' out of them. Edited January 30, 2013 by Steve Prokopiw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbat Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 (edited) You must teach somewhere with a perfect beginner hill! (jealous) The place where I've taught for the last 5 years presented some unnesessary additional challenges for the beginner. Steep at the top, followed by long relatively flat section with very slight (aka hard to recognize) double fall lines going all over the place. Not only that, but I've had to deal with a rope tow, as well. NOT FUN! They finally got a chair in there this year which majorly narrowed the available terrain to use! The place I teach now also has a rope tow in the beginner area with a very gentle and wide slope. The top of the rope tow is a little steep and has a huge bottleneck issue. Even has a "bench" in the middle where many get stuck if they are going to slow.You are so lucky to have great terrain to teach on! You'd choke on those words if you saw our learning hill. If I read that first description out of context, I'd think you were describing our hill. But! the top of the hill is irrelevant to the beginning steps. We do have a nice flat (flat, level, no slope) at the bottom of the hill that is out of the way of traffic to the lift line. I don't even consider anything but booting up a few feet at the bottom of the hill until they've got J turns on both edges down. Now if you were talking about intermediate terrain, we've got a couple trails that are the envy of the free world. Edited January 30, 2013 by dingbat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OhD Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 With privates like this I am able to zero in on everything that will ensure that a client gets hooked and keeps coming back for more. Sorry - I have no self control when it comes to out-of-context funnies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atom Ant Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 I don't know if this has been mentioned by anyone as of yet in this discussion (I tried reading through the entire trail of posts best I could), but learning to carve has incredible benefits for those wishing to pursue--at least for the time being-- a freestyle orientation. The X-Games have recently been showing the best of the best freestyle riders in the world, and every single one of them can carve the hell out of a trail... and park. How else do you generate the speed, rotation and cork of those incredible tricks? You have to carve off the lip. When I was doing freestyle as a pro-am, I was one of the few who new how to carve (since my father is a ski racer, when I chose snowboarding he wouldn't let me in the park until I could carve to his satisfaction). Not coincidentally, I was one of the few who could cork a large spin and maintain my speed through the park from feature to feature. Most instructors don't seem to make this connection (perhaps that is why they are instructors, not sponsored athletes). Here is my overall point, which comes from my own experience: learning to carve earlier than later contributes to lifetime participation because it is a skill that transcends the various styles and disciplines of the sport. I would not be hardbooting (or maybe even riding at all) today had my father not forced me to learn to carve while young. Eventually the freestyle will get old, because the snow gets harder as a rider becomes older, at which point carving becomes the new focal point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 I'm guessing the easiest transition is if soft-booters are interested in carving is to have them set up steeper binding angles and concentrate on carving. If they enjoy that & get the hang of it, they can come to this website and figure out how to buy or borrow gear. I was with old college buddies last weekend. Five of them were on skis & I was on my alpine setup. They are all experienced, expert skiers. Most were "skeptical" of snowboarders in general but they were intrigued by hardboots & carving. However, they were each a bit too old to try any kind of snowboarding for the 1st time (past 55). So, if skiers have an appreciation for what we are doing, they probably need to be less than 40 or so to risk some body slamming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xy9ine Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 good point, aa. i saw a freestyle competitor at a local event a couple weeks ago laying down a few sweet ripper carves (prior to entering the course). not sure if he was inspired by the (small) group of hardbooters that were on the hill that day, or that's just how he rolls, but it was great to see. technique trumps hardware for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbat Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 Atom Ant is right on the money. Unfortunately, the message is not getting to the young people in the sport by any avenue they put stock in. Most I've run in to think they are carving at an advanced level if they can change direction at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 good point, aa. i saw a freestyle competitor at a local event a couple weeks ago laying down a few sweet ripper carves (prior to entering the course). not sure if he was inspired by the (small) group of hardbooters that were on the hill that day, or that's just how he rolls, but it was great to see. technique trumps hardware for sure. I've had similar experiences with freestyle guys digging trenches -- I don't see it much, but I love it when I do. It would be cool if more park riders learned to love the carve. The Japanese park kids up at Timberline in the summer do carve their park boards like mad -- I've seen them play follow the leader down the hill to the pipe, aggressively carving every turn. I talked to a U.S. freestyle instructor about it once and she said something along the lines of "Yeah, they like that real exaggerated style." :rolleyes::rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 Most I've run in to think they are carving at an advanced level if they can change direction at all.Kids use "carve" to mean "turn". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 Kids use "carve" to mean "turn". At least <a href="http://www.j-archive.com/showgame.php?game_id=2920&highlight=turn">Jeopardy got it right.</a> "3 ways to turn on a snowboard are skidding, jumping & this type" Correct response was "carving" -- if I'm interpreting the question archive right, all three contestants answered wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 Wow, somebody is way obsessed with Jeopardy to develop that site.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atom Ant Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 (edited) It amazes me. Most freestyle riders own short (sub-158cm) boards, usually rockered that are slow, soft and lack pop. The incredible thing is that nearly all of the riders that hit huge jumps ride larger, cambered boards because without them they simply cannot generate the speed or spin required to be competitive, let alone knowing how to carve. A quick note on "street" snowboarding (bungee based, handrail or roof-drop, redirect driven riding): while I think it is dangerous, borderline irresponsible to encourage riders to emulate this type of riding (I have two mangled fingers that I can use as evidence of its dangers) I do admire the "do it yourself / anti establishment" spirit of it all. Skiers are now copying this type of riding, but snowboarders invented it (well, skateboarders, but still...). This type of riding removes the need for a lift ticket and cuts the resorts out entirely, making an otherwise ludicrously expensive, for-the-privileged sport accessible to those of very modest means. There are literally sponsored riders who have very rarely been to a resort, who will switch smith-grind a double kink like no tomorrow, or boost off a roof top and crank out a 900. I think this is very punk-rock, for lack of a better phrase. Just as punks made loud, innovative music by removing the need for music lessons that many of them could not afford, snowboarding is innovating by removing the need for access to mountains, expensive training camps, condos near resorts, and all the other "lucky sperm club" benefits of being affluent. This is particularly true of hardboot based racing: if your parents cannot enroll you in a program, buy you competitive equipment, get you in gates several times a week, etc... you likely will never be competitive on a national / international level, baring extraordinary talent, of course. A $2000 Kessler is simply out of the realm of affordability to most parents, let alone their kids. For adults, probably still true. I would not recommend street based riding to anyone, however: frozen concrete makes the hardest snow seem like powder. I think it is important to recognize that snowboarding continues to be an innovative presence in the alpine scene, even if the innovation is the removal of the alpine scene. Skiing cannot say the same in this regard. Still, obviously, I think carve based riding offers more to the long term success of snowboarding. Edited January 30, 2013 by Atom Ant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbat Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 Kids use "carve" to mean "turn". Yes, but I'm running into kids who, even when they see actual carving, can't differentiate between that and their own riding. It's like a person who grew up speaking french trying to pronounce an "H" sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinpa Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 I got a chance now to do a little bit more research.... I chose the event list for AASI/Eastern Division since I think it has the most members and the most variety of clinics offered. On the list of events, page 8 under rider update 3 two days clinics are offered titled "Corduroy & Carving" http://www.psia-e.org/ev/schedul/EventSchedule.pdf The discription for the clinic is this: Snowbd Corduroy and Carving - This course is designed for snowboard instructors refining their riding skills and working on carving and groomed terrain. During this course you will experience and discover techniques used to improve your understanding of both riding and teaching students to carve. Be prepared to learn and use terminology that will reinforce safe riding and coaching your students to switch edges with out pivot (or waiting for the board to face downhill). You will review movement analysis techniques used to determine when students are prepared move into the carving realm. Experiment with fun riding tasks that can be used to teach students to "play" to develop the necessary skills and gain experience before heading to more difficult terrain. Wearing a helmet is not required, but is encouraged at this course. copied from http://www.psia-e.org/ev/desc/aasi/ I wonder what would happen if an instructor were to show up with alpine gear to an event like this. I would try it if I was still on the east coast! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbat Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 Hmmm.... Let my membership lapse 'cause I didn't feel I was getting my moneys worth out of it.... but that's a stone's throw from me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinpa Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 Hmmm.... Let my membership lapse 'cause I didn't feel I was getting my moneys worth out of it.... but that's a stone's throw from me. Do it! Do it! Do it! Maybe you could still attend if not a member? I'd love to be an in disguise camera person..... Boy, that would be good! I was a member of the eastern division from 91 to 2000 ish, I think. When I did my level 2 in 1995, most of the top guys were on hard boots. I do try to keep my membership current although it has lapsed a time or two over the years. I think I get paid more as a certified instructor, but still barely worth it. My lift tickets for my next two days of vacation should be covered so that's a little more than the dues so I guess we are good. I wish I had all the options for clinic topics available here. We are one of the smaller divisons as far as membership goes. We'll see how things go with the Children's Specialist in a few weeks... It's a multi-discipline event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hilux Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 ...who will switch smith-grind a double kink like no tomorrow, or boost off a roof top and crank out a 900... You totally lost me at "smith-grind..." ;) Googling it riiiiight...now :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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