evnewsphoto Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) My new rides; My old rides; Great boards! But this is what happened to my old SG 163; It's why I switched to VIST plates (now have the new Donek plate) and I was very lucky that SG helped me with a replacement board but I don't want that to happen again. I am not trying to bad mouth SG, they were good to me and I don't blame them for the manufacturing that they contract out, Sigi makes awesome boards and they do win races. But I can't always swap boards every year either before they wear out and or break. I still have the 175 and unless someone buys it (it's for sale) I will use it as a backup board. The Doneks are equal to SGs (I rode them last March to compare and they are exactly the same) but Sean knows how to build them strong and has inserts that can handle way more than the SGs, that is why I believe in what he has made and know I can trust them under my feet. It's bad enough to have a board fail in training but what if it happens in a race? Just ask Mark Fawcet about his second run at Nagano. Failure is not an option. Enough said. Edited September 21, 2012 by evnewsphoto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 My new rides;My old rides; Great boards but this is what happens to SGs; It's why I switched to VIST plates (now have the new Donek plate) and I was very lucky that SG helped me with a replacement board but I don't want that to happen again. I am not trying to bad mouth SG, they were good to me and I don't blame them for the manufacturing that they contract out, Sigi makes awesome boards and they do win races. But I can't always swap boards every year either before they wear out and or break. I still have the 175 and unless someone buys it (it's for sale) I will use it as a backup board. The Doneks are equal to SGs (I rode them last March to compare and they are exactly the same) but Sean knows how to build them strong and has inserts that can handle way more than the SGs, that is why I believe in what he has made and know I can trust them under my feet. It's bad enough to have a board fail in training but what if it happens in a race? Just ask Mark Fawcet about his second run at Nagano. Failure is not an option. Enough said. Awsome new boards, congrats! However, I really think you should stop posting that ruined SG around. They treated you nicely, be nice to them too. Last season we already established that you used binding that would brake most, if not every, metal board out there, wihtout any protective measures... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLN Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 What are the plates on your doneks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 The Doneks are damn cool, but that's not fair to SG. I'd bet the Doneks would break too if you used TD1s on them. Kudos to SG for giving you warranty on them. I think this is the first look at the new Donek plates too. They were kept out of public view last spring. Are they lighter than Vist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evnewsphoto Posted September 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 Yes they are lighter than the VIST and they are so much easier to mount, they go into the UPM pattern and not the 4-hole (you need a UPM pattern board) and Sean is even making them from recycled plastic so they are "green!" The really cool thing also is that there is a small slider on the front mounts similar to a bomber plate or other suspension type plates, allowing the board to flex. Both mounting points are recessed, and the slider can't pop out, they also have really nice hardware; hex nuts- not the screws like VIST. It's the best of both worlds and should still give me the direct contact with the board I loved about the VIST plates. Not sure when Sean will have them for sale (these are prototypes) but it should be very soon, they are mature well thought out designs, Sean put a lot of thought into these along with the Steamboat guys and Converse especially from what I understand. Here is the video for those who missed it: As far as SG, I am very happy with how things turned out and they were good to me, I never said otherwise. I wanted to update everone on my post from last year and all that happened but could not find the old thread so I just started a new one. I feel that even though my TD1s were part of it, I am not alone in the problem and know that it could still happen even with a VIST plate, the inserts are the problem. Like I said SG does a great job, but building inserts to a lower standard (there is some international industry standard maxium pressure test they use meant for all boards- freestyle boards) that does not test for maxium race g-forces is going to result in a weaker core/insert standard. Sean I know had decided a long time ago (when TD2s came out) that he wanted to build his inserts at a stronger pressure point (he told me the number I don't remember) that is why I made my choice. It is a free market and I am only wanting to offer everyone my experience and share why I think one board is stronger than the other. I would still ride and race on an SG any day if they fixed this one issue. Sean has fixed the issue in my opion (and others I know agree and urged me to buy these boards) and I am trying to advise anyone who tends to be bigger and stronger (i.e. breaks stuff) to look at the great product that Sean is making. It is equal to the SGs on snow, almost the same exact specs- rides the same, but they are just built stronger. My choice is my choice, everyone else is free to buy what they want and I will still cheer for Sigi and Just Rieter and everyone else on SGs, they are awesome boards. Kesslers too. But I will trust my Doneks and show up at the start with them and that is all I wanted to share. Everett Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 I think you need to ride the new boards with the same bindings you rode the old with, or you've no evidence for what you're asserting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacopodotti Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) I feel that even though my TD1s were part of it, I am not alone in the problem and know that it could still happen even with a VIST plate, the inserts are the problem. Like I said SG does a great job, but building inserts to a lower standard (there is some international industry standard maxium pressure test they use meant for all boards- freestyle boards) that does not test for maxium race g-forces is going to result in a weaker core/insert standard. Everett How could you be sure about this? I dare you to mount the TD1 on your new Doneks. Edited September 21, 2012 by jacopodotti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 Well done Phil! He's got no evidence for any conclusions he made. Dicing a company, after they've been more then nice to him is just low. They warantied the board that he bought used and then abused it, then he still has the cheek to say in public their boards are sub par?! Even if they are (and I belive they are not), have some respect man... This thread should be deleted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evnewsphoto Posted September 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 Why do you guys have to start this again? I do have respect for SG but not Elan who makes the bad inserts. I said the TD1s were part of it but the inserts are also poorly done. I know this because of seeing what they look like and hearing about what the boards have on the inside when you cut them open. And as far as riding these boards I have, rode them at Nationals when Sean and Fin had the demo tents set up (photo on the home page). Like I said I am just updateing you all on my consumer choice that I have made and giving a vote of confidence to Sean and his boards, it is because I do not want another failure. Can you blame me for being nervious about cracking another? As the old saying goes fool me once.... By the way I now have evidence that even with a VIST plate and new generation Bombers you can still crack the topsheet. I know you all want that to be shared but it is confidental and I will maybe share it latter. Alright let's all move on and not snipe, I am moving on and I am not looking for a fight just trying to warn others and help Sean sell more Revs (he is not paying me or anything- I just believe in the difference). Snipe on if you want but I am done debating for now, I wish you all the best and looking forward to the season! Take care, Everett Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 Nice Donek setup. Sexy Donek plate, when it's lookin' good, the ride should be okay too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donek Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 Corey Raises a great point. I am guilty of making the same assessment: "TD1s on any metal will break it." I've actually got one of last seasons prototypes holding up the wall. If we can scrounge up a pair of old TD1's Mr Kress has agreed to be the guinea pig. He'll ride the heck out of it (sans plate) until it fails. Does anyone out there have a pair of TD1's they will contribute to the cause. This sounds like a lot of fun. Maybe someone else is willing to risk their neck. Let me know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 Why do you guys have to start this again? Who started this thread, again? As the old saying goes fool me once.... This is the exact attitude that SG/Elan should have towards you. Actually, they should sue you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.T. Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) Why do you guys have to start this again? I do have respect for SG but not Elan who makes the bad inserts. I said the TD1s were part of it but the inserts are also poorly done. I know this because of seeing what they look like and hearing about what the boards have on the inside when you cut them open. And as far as riding these boards I have, rode them at Nationals when Sean and Fin had the demo tents set up (photo on the home page). Like I said I am just updateing you all on my consumer choice that I have made and giving a vote of confidence to Sean and his boards, it is because I do not want another failure. Can you blame me for being nervious about cracking another? As the old saying goes fool me once.... By the way I now have evidence that even with a VIST plate and new generation Bombers you can still crack the topsheet. I know you all want that to be shared but it is confidental and I will maybe share it latter. Alright let's all move on and not snipe, I am moving on and I am not looking for a fight just trying to warn others and help Sean sell more Revs (he is not paying me or anything- I just believe in the difference). Snipe on if you want but I am done debating for now, I wish you all the best and looking forward to the season! Take care, Everett You say you are moving on yet continue to post photos and re-tell your drama from last year. If you have truly moved on, there wouldnt have been photos on your SG in this thread. You continue to blame SG and state that the TD1's were part of the problem, let's not forget that you lost one o the bumpers from the TD1's and therefore all of the applied force was cantilevered off of the insert pattern... In my book, you were more to blame than SG or the TD1's, combined! Unless you have scientific proof the SG is at fault (I'm not saying that they aren't, I haven't seen any testing to prove one way or another), it would seem appropriate for you to quit blaming them in a public form. If you want all of this to go away, delete this thread and start a new one talking only about your Revs and make no mention of SG. Edited September 21, 2012 by D.T. Typos... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.T. Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 Corey Raises a great point. I am guilty of making the same assessment: "TD1s on any metal will break it." I've actually got one of last seasons prototypes holding up the wall. If we can scrounge up a pair of old TD1's Mr Kress has agreed to be the guinea pig. He'll ride the heck out of it (sans plate) until it fails. Does anyone out there have a pair of TD1's they will contribute to the cause. This sounds like a lot of fun. Maybe someone else is willing to risk their neck. Let me know. for years inkaholic rode and raced a foam core Rossi using the "original", small disk TD1's with homemade bumpers and never had an issue - just sayin' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kieran Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 If we can scrounge up a pair of old TD1's Mr Kress has agreed to be the guinea pig. He'll ride the heck out of it (sans plate) until it fails. any chance this can happen while someone is tailgunning him with helmetcam switched on? in the pursuit of science, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donek Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 Nice Donek setup. Sexy Donek plate, when it's lookin' good, the ride should be okay too. The new F-plate (should have finished product in about a week) works on the same principle as the VIST, but I believe we've made some significant advancements. The contact surface between the board and slider/retainer device has been dramatically enlarged. This results in the ability to always tighten the screws firmly. I believe the difficulty with the VIST hardware is that the barrel of their t-device can squeeze into the chamfer cut at the top of an insert resulting in that device binding rather than sliding. Any plate system that mounts to a 4X4 hole pattern has a degree flex between board and binding when pressuring the edge. We've generated a system that works with the UPM hole pattern, eliminating that flex or latency when initiating a turn. This results in a more immediate transition to the edge and a more responsive feel. The system is designed in such a way that disassembly is not required to remove the plate. Most racers will completely break down their board and plate at the end of a race. Producing a system that does not require disassembly dramatically reduces the time invested and the likelihood of lost components. As it comes assembled, you don’t need significant knowledge or time to mount it the first time either. All of the slider hardware is captive, so the only parts that cam be lost are the screws. The upper aluminum plate that you mount your bindings to is fastened to the plastic rails with machine screws and a threaded aluminum t-nut. We actually call it a bar nut because it is long enough to capture two different screws in the system. It uses the standard 6mm threaded hardware found on all snowboards and the design makes it impossible to strip threads in the plastic or spin a captive nut embedded in the plastic. The entire system is produced from recycle plastic and aluminum (which is also recycled). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donek Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 any chance this can happen while someone is tailgunning him with helmetcam switched on? in the pursuit of science, of course. Then Kress can hurt himself when the board breaks, get run over by the cameraman, and both can go to the ER. My guess is that any failure will be unpredictable. We would hopefully catch it before anyone crashes. I think the test may be too un-scientific. There needs to be an apples to apples test that compares the retention strength of all the major brands if we really want to see how they compare. I can provide actual values from the testing we did a few years back, but it's sort of meaningless unless all the boards are tested with the same setup. There are some ASTM and ISO testing techniques, but they apply to freeride boards, not alpine equipment. In my experience adhering to these standards for alpine and race gear is inadequate. We all claim that hard boots give us the ability generate greater edge pressure in a turn. It stands to reason that larger forces are transmitted to the inserts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 F-plate, interesting, nice to put on my waited JJ 185 and make a comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kieran Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 Then Kress can hurt himself when the board breaks, get run over by the cameraman, and both can go to the ER.nobody ever gets hurt on mythbusters. i guess i'm in a majority of people who've never seen a board fail or how it fails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 It stands to reason that larger forces are transmitted to the inserts.Do you have any empirical data on that? I expect it's hugely variable, but I suspect your typical tree-trunk-legged FIS racer is going to generate more stress than anyone in softies freeriding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donek Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 Do you have any empirical data on that? I expect it's hugely variable, but I suspect your typical tree-trunk-legged FIS racer is going to generate more stress than anyone in softies freeriding. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If we apply a greater amount of leverage to the edge of the board, that leverage has to be countered by something, which I would say is the inserts holding the bindings to the board. We could get into an argument about proper style here and say that in an ideal situation, all of our forces are being applied in a downward direction, but it is the non ideal situation in which boards fail. If we didn't need the inserts, we'd all be riding noboards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 How is it possible to have force only applied in a downward direction (by which I assume you mean in the same axis as the inserts) during a carved turn in packed snow? The force from the snow can only be exerted on the carving edge, that is going to create forces in at least two dimensions at the inserts no matter how good your style is. Physics wanking aside, you didn't really answer my original question - I was just curious as to whether you had empirical data on the forces generated at the inserts, ie some measurements that gave you an idea of the ballpark you are designing for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donek Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 How is it possible to have force only applied in a downward direction (by which I assume you mean in the same axis as the inserts) during a carved turn in packed snow? The force from the snow can only be exerted on the carving edge, that is going to create forces in at least two dimensions at the inserts no matter how good your style is.Physics wanking aside, you didn't really answer my original question - I was just curious as to whether you had empirical data on the forces generated at the inserts, ie some measurements that gave you an idea of the ballpark you are designing for. As I said, arguments all the way around. Lets drop that part. I guess maybe you meant empirical evidence of larger forces. It's probably not really what could be termed scientific, but in the 25 years I've been building snowboards, the only inserts I've seen pulled out of a snowboard had a plate binding attached to them. As the guy who gets to pay for every warranty return that comes through the door, that tends to incentivize me. I'd much rather spend an extra $0.30 in fiberglass and $0.05 per insert to guarantee I don't have to explain why a customers board broke in the middle of their vacation/race/good times. The year the TD2 was released, we also changed insert manufacturers. In that season I received 4 returns with inserts pulled from the board. One was a previous years build and the other 3 were from that season. I chose to have a group of University of Colorado Engineering students perform some insert retention tests for me. These test are highly dependent on the fixturing that is used and the samples produced. It was, however, effective in relaying relative strengths of different insert configurations. When comparing the retention strength of the configuration we used prior to the TD2, we found that with very minimal modifications we could raise the retention strength by 67%. Since we made those changes, I have not seen another warranty for insert failure. That's probably not the science you were looking for, but I believe it has saved me money and anguish over the years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davekempmeister Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 (edited) race boards are made to win races, not longevity or durability. that was my conclusion when a Kessler came apart, although it was difficult to arrive at. the magic comes at a price. someday, I'll wish I was still strong enough to pull the inserts out (no plate needed, thanks) of one. Edited September 22, 2012 by davekempmeister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Rode TD1s on Burton Factory Primes for several years, many days, no problem. Curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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