Quiver thoughts

[Jack M]

In the original paragraph it should be clear that the inference is more towards prophylaxis.

Ok. I still disagree. Nose decamber fixes the fact that snowboards were previously designed basically in 2D. Exactly what happens at the point where the sidecut ends, the camber ends, and the nose upturn begins was previously either disregarded, or incompletely solved. The function of the nose of a snowboard used to be thought of similarly as the front end of a toboggan. The problem with that was, our toboggans need to function while tilted up on edge, and bent into a new shape. When tilted on edge, unfortunately the upturn of the nose becomes an active participant in the carve. The relatively tiny radius of the curve of a traditional nose upturn cannot possibly work in continuity with the rest of the sidecut. Nose decamber addresses this. So I don't think calling it prophylaxis is really fair.

While simulating the simpler effects of a suspension system, nose de-camber, like decreased rolling resistance, simply aren't.

Unless one is playing at marketing; in which case, 'game on'.

It is not a marketing gimmick. Skis and snowboards are finally working the way they should have been all along. Are you thinking of the yellow Coiler prototype I had you try? That board seemed like it had too much nose decamber. Of course there is a limit to the usefulness.

When you consider the many accounts of bodily harm on this forum, one could reasonably conclude that a better understanding of the 'limits' involved, combined with board construction that provides a subliminal warning in the form of dissonance when those limits are approached, might prevent some of the trauma.

I don't think the effect of nose rocker is so drastic that it gives false confidence. I think it is still pretty obvious when you are about to lose an edge. Furthermore, I really feel like nose rocker helps maintain edge hold that might have been lost on a traditional board.

For every generation of athlete, there will always be those who have an innate 'feel' or sense for what they are doing. These athletes are the ones who can fully exploit changes in materials, geometry, advanced damper valving etc, as they are not using them as 'buffers'. They tend to go faster, and wreck with lesser frequency, regardless of what is underneath.

I would like to meet this superhero who can win WC races with a traditional board, no plate, stiff bindings, and ski boots, against the current competition.

I'm certainly not suggesting that newer shapes are 'bad'. Far from it. Nor am I suggesting that all novices pay their dues on a Kemper Apex.

Rather, full cambered boards needn't be binned prematurely.

For a skilled user, cambered boards (and skis) may provide more usable feedback, (particularly at 'tip in') and this feedback serves an important part in skill development.

But that feedback is merely what is going on under the sharply upturned nose, not what the rest of the sidecut is doing. I don't find it necessary. Again though, there is a limit to how much decambering works well.

And they really don't 'plow' unless you stand on them in a way you shouldn't.

All I can tell you is that stepping off a Madd 180 and onto an NSR 185 gave me an immediate sensation that the nose was "slicing" more cleanly. Had I never ridden a decambered nose, I would go right on believing nothing was wrong with my traditional board's nose. I used to love that board to death. Just like I used to love my red 1998 Factory Prime. But time marches on and things have gotten better, not worse.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Jack Michaud

[tahoetrencher]

I think there is a world of difference other than nose profile between the new Madd and the NSR.

Attributing all to the nose belies the other thoughtful posts you have made here.

I remember getting my red team fps around '94-'95 season?

You're 1998 wasn't red unless you painted it?

Time to calibrate the way back machine Chumley?

Edited April 3, 2012 by tahoetrencher

[xy9ine]

again, i say - what about the new donek freecarve? it's a decambered vsr glass board; sounds fun.

transitioning from my kesslers to the prior atv, i'm always surprised by the playful poppy-ness of the (primitive) glass board. i'd love to try a modern construction glass board (and keep the metals for ice days). the cheaper price (and possible increased durability) are attractive as well.

[Jack M]

I think there is a world of difference other than nose profile between the new Madd and the NSR.

Attributing all to the nose belies the other thoughtful posts you have made here.

I agree, but I wasn't attributing it all to the nose. We just happen to be discussing nose decamber.

I remember getting my red team fps around '94-'95 season?

You're 1998 wasn't red unless you painted it.

Time to calibrate the way back machine Chumley?

Factory Prime retail history:

95 some sizes were maroon, others were gray, with a black pattern that sort of looked like an abstract tire track.

96 was silver with reddish-pink sidewalls

97 was blue with green sidewalls

98 was red with orange sidewalls

99 was yellow with red sidewalls.

00 was black with green sidewalls

01 was black. I forget the sidewalls.

Maybe team boards were different.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Jack Michaud

[Jack M]

again, i say - what about the new donek freecarve? it's a decambered vsr glass board; sounds fun.

Yes, although I would probably want to customize the waist width and sidecut radius. The stock shapes are 2-radius, with the longer radius in the tail, according to the website. I'd want a 3-radius sidecut like 12-14-13 or 11-13-12, nose-mid-tail. Of course this is just a keystroke for Sean. I'm also talking with him about a glass-carbon combo layup.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Jack Michaud

[Shred Gruumer]

Im a homo glass board and assysm I luvQUOTE]

What are you a lesbian? Oxess Carbon,, nuff said doooch! :lol:

[Jack M]

What are you a lesbian? Oxess Carbon,, nuff said doooch! :lol:

Yeah I don't have $2000 for a snowboard, guy!

[BlueB]

There is definitely a problem with ubrupt nose rise. Even before the decamber/metal revolution, I felt that Priors, Burtons and Generics (didn't ride too many Coilers back then) sliced way better, with their very gradual smooth nose rises, then the other old school boards.

[Beckmann AG]

OK,.........worse.

(Sigh)

Misconstrue much?

1. If nose de-camber prevents a rider from stuffing the nose in uneven conditions, thereby preventing injury, subsequent wound infection, or damage to the ego, then it is certainly fair to refer to that aspect of the design as prophylactic. That's hardly a pejorative.

2. I did not say that de-camber is a marketing gimmick. I said (and could have composed the sentence more clearly) that it was not appropriate to call it a suspension system. To refer to it as such would be considered a marketing ploy.

3. I made no reference to edge hold or loss thereof. Rather, a board with de-camber will be less punitive in the event a rider of lesser skill uses outsized movements in moving from one edge to the other. If that rider were to use the same tactics on a cambered board, they would likely ride at a slower pace until such time as the resultant dissonance was resolved by way of skill development.

4. Re: 'superhero'. I made no suggestion of this scenario. You might notice, however, that at least one Canadian organization is finding success with the Dalbello Krypton (a ski boot).

The widespread use of isoclines will eventually swing the pendulum back toward a stiffer interface, and the sport will evolve; it is only a matter of time, circumstance, and genetics.

5. Re: feedback. "(particularly at 'tip in')" The de-cambered nose does not provide as much feedback in this area. Some riders don't care, and wouldn't notice anyway. Others do notice, and do care.

6. I'm not arguing efficacy of design, but offering observations pertaining to cause and effect, (with reference to precedent in other areas), and the possible impact on skill development. Some might find that useful.

I hope the previous clarifies sufficiently.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Beckmann AG

[WinterGold]

Hi Jack,

I must confess that I haven´t read the whole discussion here, but you know what is funny?

Your initial quiver suggestion is exactly what some pros used this season.

They use their SL and GS boards also for freecarving, but when they are out just for fun (and the conditions are good!), they also use a middle length non-metal board. At least some of the SG riders. Their quiver -

- 2x SL - FullRace 163

- 2x GS - FullRace 185

- FullCarve 170 (sometimes even with plate ...)

[jacopodotti]

I think there is a world of difference other than nose profile between the new Madd and the NSR. Attributing all to the nose belies the other thoughtful posts you have made here. I remember getting my red team fps around '94-'95 season? You're 1998 wasn't red unless you painted it? Time to calibrate the way back machine Chumley?

http://derf.dyndns.org/~derf/gallery/snowboard_Burton_1998/Ultra_Primes_Factory_Primes?full=1

[jacopodotti]

There is definitely a problem with ubrupt nose rise. Even before the decamber/metal revolution, I felt that Priors, Burtons and Generics (didn't ride too many Coilers back then) sliced way better, with their very gradual smooth nose rises, then the other old school boards.

So we could say that a very well built glass board doesn't need all the new "illness" :) ?

Surely I'm not convinced of one way, old shape glass board , or the other way ,decamber metal board.

I'm just talking about everyday carving.Rabanser told me that one of the best things of the decambered nose help to distribuite the pressure during the carve along all the edge.

But he is a race oriented super athlet .

My bad feeling with the decambered nose the board needs to be more inclined to get into the same carve.

[BlueB]

So we could say that a very well built glass board doesn't need all the new "illness" :) ?

Surely I'm not convinced of one way, old shape glass board , or the other way ,decamber metal board.

I'm just talking about everyday carving.Rabanser told me that one of the best things of the decambered nose help to distribuite the pressure during the carve along all the edge.

But he is a race oriented super athlet .

My bad feeling with the decambered nose the board needs to be more inclined to get into the same carve.

Not too sure what you refer to as "illness"? Nose decamber? Hammerhead? Metal?

Look at the old Priors, or even your Speed, the SCR definitely goes into the nose upturn. Nose is of a very gentle rise. Those 2 effectively give a primitive nose decamber. When this concept was refined and increased, boards got better. Then take your pick - less for snappier, yet still smooth edge engagement, more for driftier, yet still good edgehold.

Metal or not metal is builder's and riders prefference. Oxxes has proven that non-metal boards still can win the races. However, most of the race boards and race skis still have the matal.

[jacopodotti]

Not too sure what you refer to as "illness"? Nose decamber? Hammerhead? Metal?

Yes just a joke we use in italy to descript all this new things.

[carver]

ICE??? What is that? Wheres the bar? I don't do no stinkn' ICE. You can get hurt! With my knew Titanium hip, it's not going to happen! LOL

[powdahbonz]

Jack-

Sounds like you're decribing Sean's carbon fiber machines...the one that Geoff referenced was very poppy and uber fun...while narrow at 18, did not bother me a bit-I think it was 12-14scr and maybe 179ish...much more fun on firm...think it would be un-fun on ultra hard days.

[Jack M]

Jack-

Sounds like you're decribing Sean's carbon fiber machines...the one that Geoff referenced was very poppy and uber fun...while narrow at 18, did not bother me a bit-I think it was 12-14scr and maybe 179ish...much more fun on firm...think it would be un-fun on ultra hard days.

Yep, I'm working with Sean on a custom. Just have to recover from last night with Uncle Sam. We're going to try a carbon + glass combo with no metal. I'm thinking 171cm, 20.5cm waist, 11.5 - 13 - 12m VSR.

Jacopodotti, you seem determined to reject new technology even though I believe I have provided clear explanations for what it does and how it benefits you for freecarving. Ride one and you'll see.

[jacopodotti]

Jacopodotti, you seem determined to reject new technology even though I believe I have provided clear explanations for what it does and how it benefits you for freecarving. Ride one and you'll see.

@ Jack Your explanations were clear and convincing, my feeling on the boards that I've tried was not so.

As soon as I can I would try some new board and I hope to get new good sensations.

[lowrider]

Recent discoveries of board performance with plates has left me with the conclusion that metal is a proven advancement in board technology but glass is also a bonus when it comes to storing energy. My next endevour is to combine the two in but in a different way than has been done to date. Metal nose, glass tail any prognostication as to it's performance, good or bad ? Core is made but i have to sneek into a certain board builders stash and convince him to release into my custody a sheet of titinal.

[kieran]

We're going to try a carbon + glass combo with no metal.

rubber or no rubber?

[Jack M]

rubber or no rubber?

Not sure yet but I'm leaning towards some rubber. Not the deli-style slab that was under the topsheet of my Kessler though.

Recent discoveries of board performance with plates has left me with the conclusion that metal is a proven advancement in board technology but glass is also a bonus when it comes to storing energy. My next endevour is to combine the two in but in a different way than has been done to date. Metal nose, glass tail any prognostication as to it's performance, good or bad ? Core is made but i have to sneek into a certain board builders stash and convince him to release into my custody a sheet of titinal.

Oh neat! I think this would be worth a try. You first! Where to end the metal though... waist? back foot? I would also think it would be good to end it in a flying-V shape, not just a straight line.

@ Jack Your explanations were clear and convincing, my feeling on the boards that I've tried was not so.

As soon as I can I would try some new board and I hope to get new good sensations.

Cool.

[kieran]

Oh neat! I think this would be worth a try. You first! Where to end the metal though... waist? back foot? I would also think it would be good to end it in a flying-V shape, not just a straight line.

i thought about this once as i'm sure many of us do. my idea was to have an isoceles triangle of titanal, full width at the front and tapering to the tail, and two complementary triangles of 2x2 biaxial carbon either side, widening toward the tail.

[leeho730]

Coda snowboards comes with metal nose, glass split tail, cable...