What are your Angles?

[KingCrimson]

Box wine? You guys know I use this site as an escape from high school, and mentioning the fuego method is completely undermining that.

[michael.a]

A bit like saying if you can't operate the gear selector when your seat is too far back, sit a bit anti-clockwise to extend your reach...

Though splay is a statistical normality, that does not imply that it is the functional ideal for all 'boarding' applications. Splay on a snowboard is derived in large part from the conformation of the feet, particularly the mobility of the first metatarsals, (and influenced to some extent by the nature of the knees and hips while under load).

At a fixed stance width, a rider with even a small degree of mobility at the first metatarsal(s) would bear too much weight on the 'blades' of the feet, if those feet were parallel. And/or, the ankle joint would be stressed. Add splay, and the mobility is accounted for, at least to the degree that the rider is now 'comfortable', with more 'bones on the floor'. Of course you have not addressed the collapse of the foot, attendant loss of ROM at the ankle, nor how that may influence ROM/joint tracking further up the chain.

Comfort is a good starting point, but does not begin to account for all of the possibilities involved in an 'effective' stance. Ideally, one would consider all of the inputs necessary for quality riding, and then accommodate those, comfort, the need for an effective load bearing structure, unhindered joint articulation, and muscular efficiency.

The best stance is the one with the fewest compromises.

I can't imagine only one effective way to execute a 'Canadian Power Slide'....

I'm riding in Solden, Austria right now and actualy spent 5euro for internet access to write to you (well not really you Beckmann, my girlfriend really, but you take comfort that you are seco..er third in line), well, want to say thank you for the information, my only beef now is... how the hell do you take all of that into consideration? Me, joe schmo, besides such cold hard data like "comfort" and "feel", I have no other parameters to use.

I guess point number two, before my internet runs out, is just that, considering what is the best stance with the fewest compromises. How do I know what compromises to consider, besides, again, comfort and feel?

[Beckmann AG]

what is the best stance with the fewest compromises.

Determined in part by what you want for an end product.

If you want to ride crunched up like an old candy wrapper, your stance will be different than if you want to lie down and fill your pockets with snow. If your identity as a rider is dependent on idolatry, or sense of athletic accomplishment through exertion, your stance may need to reflect those criteria.

Style is a byproduct of technique, technique is a byproduct of interface, and interface is a byproduct of desire.

Your board responds to several discrete inputs. Your body finds equilibrium using known, predictable mechanisms. Match the two and riding becomes easier and more intuitive, rather than 'learned'.

Effective stance configuration is a matter of removing obstacles to intuitive movement.

Check your inbox.

[slopestar]

Sorry, Soft booter here. I rode for the last several seasons ( with great inner knee pain on my front foot with 18/3. at 21.5". After switching over to 24/9 no pain and better edge control, even when riding switch. Thank you Mr. Gilmour. Sorry my flows on burton 3 hole couldn't go any narrower...:o

[LambertoMI]

Great points to be made beckmann. Very well stated and true.

So with all that said, what is your end conclusion? Is my pigeon toed stance driving my candy wrapper style or is it more splayed will allow for a longer extension?

Comment 2: When I do go with a splay stance, my heelsides suffer. As in they wash out on initiation. With pigeon toe, I can lock those in with no wash

I often ask these kinds of questions because I often do bigger turns than my hill will support. IE mach 2 down the flat slope to pull 4-5 good turns. And with midwest ice I lean over the edge more to install more edge pressue that holds me in at these lower speeds.

[darko714]

60/59. I tried a lot of lower angle combinations (55/45, 55/50, 50/45) because I'm a little duck-footed, and my feet were hurting, but a racing coach said my stance was a mess, and set me up at 60/60. It took some getting used to, but it's surprisingly worked a lot better for me, and has been more comfortable.

I just went to the 59 in the rear to be contrarian.

[Beckmann AG]

Is my pigeon toed stance driving my candy wrapper style or is it more splayed will allow for a longer extension?

Possibly neither. The former is likely derived from a combination of riding 'off the sweet spot' on a board with a radial sidecut, while trying to incorporate talismanic bits of necessity from the internet.

Your board responds to 'how much and how evenly you tilt it', and 'where and how do you pressure it'.

Stance angle can affect both.

When I do go with a splay stance, my heelsides suffer. As in they wash out on initiation. With pigeon toe, I can lock those in with no wash

Weight distribution tendencies (without trying) are front foot dominant heelside, rearfoot dominant toeside.

The more splay in the rear binding, the harder it is to move additional, and often necessary, pressure to the tail of the board on a heelside.

In effect, splay can encourage heelside skid unless otherwise countered.

As you likely know already, more splay does provide an 'emergency exit' in the form of rotational facility.

All other things being equal, when you stand splay footed, and try to move your CM across the board, it tends to go diagonal: forward on heelside, somewhat back on toeside. Again, this will encourage the board to skid on heelside, and rail-out on toeside. Toeing in tends to discourage this tendency, as movement of the CM will be more 'across' the board.

Of course, trying to actually 'move' your CM is ultimately a waste of time, but that is another story.

With disregard for immediate comfort, a steeper rear binding angle can be an effective tool for 'cleaning up' movements from one edge to the other, such that they can be replicated later with a more comfortable rear foot angle.

[BLOODTYPEZX10R]

I ride my board just fine thank you very much. I ride with more angle in the rear-so what. Anatomically for me it is better. I can rail turns just as well as guys less that half my age. I am not going to change because some of you have something to say about it being incorrect.

I have been a boarder for 32+ years, I make my own and ride my own boards since '79. I have given a ton to this sport before some of you were even born. With that statement I am not demanding your respect-just letting you know I did not start yesterday.

The original question of this thread was "what are you angles"-wish I would have kept my chime to myself.

I really get the feeling that a good majority of you think you have it all figured out-I asked one of my friends that I went to high school with why he had not gotten into alpine snowboarding. His reply: (edited) "most of those guys names are DICK! Check yourself. Guys you are giving yourselves a reputation you may not want to live with, I sure don't.

Be kind, be understanding, be accepting, you might learn something about someone else or maybe even yourself.

Edited February 4, 2012 by BLOODTYPEZX10R
goof

[BlueB]

I ride my board just fine thank you very much. I ride with more angle in the rear-so what. Anatomically for me it is better. I can rail turns just as well as guys less that half my age. I am not going to change because some of you have something to say about it being incorrect.

I have been a boarder for 32+ years, I make my own and ride my own boards since '79. I have given a ton to this sport before some of you were even born. With that statement I am not demanding your respect-just letting you know I did not start yesterday.

The original question of this thread was "what are you angles"-wish I would have kept my chime to myself.

I really get the feeling that a good majority of you think you have it all figured out-I asked one of my friends that I went to high school with why he had not gotten into alpine snowboarding. His reply: (edited) "most of those guys names are DICK! Check yourself. Guys you are giving yourselves a reputation you may not want to live with, I sure don't.

Be kind, be understanding, be accepting, you might learn something about someone else or maybe even yourself.

I don't quite understand what made you sound quite bitter... This was a very civilised discussion. Lot of people said they ride with a splay. Everyone should ride what feels right and works well, for himself. When someone asks a question, there would be whole lot of opinions, but that's what makes a discussion, no?

I don't know about your hill, but here we are a very friendly group of people, always explain our gear/technique to those who ask questions, offer demoes, lessons (qualified), etc. I do not think there is a single RICHARD out here :D

[BLOODTYPEZX10R]

BlueB it was your reply to my chime that left the bitter taste. As far as the attitudes; this came from a friend of mine and his run-ins with alpine riders. We have been friends for decades and would have to respect his views. I do have some good friends that I ride with and think that they are good reps for the sport. Just last weekend I rode with a know-it-all Richard (as you put it) and it gets under my skin.

The sport is ever changing in gear/design and style.

I ride with an increased angle in the rear because it is what works. I was born with extreme pigeon toe-ness. For the first two year of my life I wore a bar with shoes attatched to it and would get my feet cranked out to correct it (1965 and I had the first alpine set-up ha ha). I recall I ached and ached because of this. You must look at the one thing that I do not have to mess with-cant angles. I hope to get some pics tomorrow and actually see where my knees are with respect to each other.

I do believe that this started as a knowledge gaining thread-but when the statements start that I am weird or incorrect about what I do is when it gets personal.

[Rob Stevens]

I have given nothing to this sport, but demand your respect anyway.

What we need are bindings that will change angle and highback settings while you ride.

I could see carving up to the steeps at higher f / r angles (not pidgeon toed... That's just crazy!), having my back foot move to a lower angle once the "slarving" got going, then switching to low angle "duck" for a front board on the box, to lien front three off the blue tabletop.

To tell the truth, the locked nature of bindings is a bit of a problem, when you have no physical limitations that make one stance comfortable and the others impossible and have the skills to get the most out of any angles.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Rob Stevens

[Rob Stevens]

I have given nothing to this sport, but demand your respect anyway.

What we need are bindings that will change angle and highback settings while you ride.

I could see carving up to the steeps at higher f / r angles (not pidgeon toed... That's just crazy!), having my back foot move to a lower angle once the "slarving" got going, then switching to low angle "duck" for a front board on the box, to lien front three off the blue tabletop.

To tell the truth, the locked nature of bindings is a bit of a problem, when you have no physical limitations that make one stance comfortable and the others impossible and have the skills to get the most out of any angles.

Now, there's a guy who knows the shred!

[lafcadio]

Teach softbooters (on hardboots): beginers +20/-5, advanced +25/+5

Hi Blue, just curious about why this is.

I have a friend who's son is trying to learn snowboarding on a used board and noticed his board was set up at +15/-5 by the previous owner. How does such a stance help beginners?

Regards,

Michael

[jtslalom]

On soft board 57 front 60 back, 3 degrees cant inward on both feet

On hard board 66 front 69 back

[BlueB]

I have a friend who's son is trying to learn snowboarding on a used board and noticed his board was set up at +15/-5 by the previous owner. How does such a stance help beginners?

Since we've got my boss' attention to this thread, I'll let him ellaborate :D

[BlueB]

BlueB it was your reply to my chime that left the bitter taste.

I do not quite know why... Yet, I apologise if I said anything rude.

[Rob Stevens]

Hi Blue, just curious about why this is.

I have a friend who's son is trying to learn snowboarding on a used board and noticed his board was set up at +15/-5 by the previous owner. How does such a stance help beginners?

Regards,

Michael

... but I'll go here.

It's for stability and mobility. We try and put beginners on a board in a way that's close to how they's normally stand. The slight duck in the back foot helps with going backwards, as we do lots of "pendulum" to teach traversing.