11 Busted at Steamboat

[Hans]

It isn't just that you may not be smoking canabis or getting drunk, but don't confrontate other people who are enjoying the mountains in a normal way with your bad (stinking) behavior.

I think that's what this is all about. Nothing more nothing less.

Just my thoughts about this subject. I even hate it when some one is smoking a cigarette in the chairlift or cabin. I just don't like the smell and you can get cancer of it.

Greets, Hans.

[skategoat]

While I'm firmly believe that riders, skiers and especially drivers should be free of intoxicants of any kind, there is at least one guy who's performance didn't seem to be adversely affected by THC.

Ross Rebagliati

Then again, maybe if the guy wasn't a pothead, he would've acheived even greater success on the World Cup circuit.

[joecarve]

Originally posted by johnstewart

He finds, quite honestly, that he is a better boarder with a bit of a buzz on. He is more relaxed and able to concentrate on the matter at hand - carving.

I know others who feel the same way.

Interesting frame of reference.

Let's say you're holding a ball, standing in an elevator. The elevator is travelling downward and you throw the ball up in the air. You see the ball rising, but what direction is it really moving?

[johnstewart]

Originally posted by joecarve

Interesting frame of reference.

Let's say you're holding a ball, standing in an elevator. The elevator is travelling downward and you throw the ball up in the air. You see the ball rising, but what direction is it really moving?

Duuuuude.... you need to lay off whatever *you're* smoking!

[outsider]

Originally posted by skategoat

While I'm firmly believe that riders, skiers and especially drivers should be free of intoxicants of any kind, there is at least one guy who's performance didn't seem to be adversely affected by THC.

Ross Rebagliati

Then again, maybe if the guy wasn't a pothead, he would've acheived even greater success on the World Cup circuit.

if i remember correctly, Ross claimed that the THC is his system came from a contact high (didnt smoke, but was around smokers) while he was at a party, but the kicker was that the THC levels in his system coroborated his story.

[Guest jeremiah]

Yeah, but he wasn't exactly sticking to that story on the late night talk shows after the Olympics were over. I recall a pretty obvious 'wink wink nudge nudge' on Letterman.

Jeremiah

[Guest dragon fly jones]

Why go back and visit Ross, he has his own issues and they could be due to smoking or not.

The key line in any of this is THE **** IS NOT LEGAL. Right wrong or otherwise. Now can we visit some real issues like who has the best snow DUDES.

[FTA2R]

JohnStewart,

I don't think I really made any assumptions (I would admit to them if I did) outside of the info you provided us with. My whole arguement is centered on addressing the "root problem" vs. the symptoms, which is probably also a significant topic in teh medical field.

I draw a parallel b/w your friends' argument and the classic situation of a guy who won't dance in a club unless he's drunk or has had a few. Why? B/c he is not sure of himself. The beers just address the symptoms, not the root problem. Some people legitimately have conditions (anxiety disorder, etc.), though, and my above arguement doesn't really apply to them.

As Joe Carve pointed out:

"Originally posted by johnstewart

He finds, quite honestly, that he is a better boarder with a bit of a buzz on. He is more relaxed and able to concentrate on the matter at hand - carving."

One can infer, however, from the above paragraph, that your friend is not as good a boarder when he doesn't ride high, at least due in part to him being tense and unable to concentrate. Simple reading comprehension/ logic really. So I'm just asking you to be objective (obviously you are his friend) and ask yourself or have your friend ask himself "what about riding when not high may make me a bit nervous or unable to concentrate."

On a personal level, I don't smoke although I think the **** should be legal, so I'm not on some anti-pot crusade, I'm just saying I generally dont' buy this whole "I ride better when I'm under the influence of <insert drug name here>" argument. It seems to me some kind of excuse in a person's head. It's amazing what people can convince themselves of, if you "think" about it. Another example I like is the guys who think they have to get tanked every weekend like they're still in college to have a good time- sorta pathetic IMO. (and I was in a frat at a decent sized school, so I've been there done that). I have never ridden under the influence of pot, however, so I guess I can't comment as authorotativley as those who have. Excuse the cheesiness here (but it's the truth), riding is the high for me.

basically as long as your friend doesn't hurt anyone while under the influence, I don't care if he's high.

rant over,

===

Barry

[johnstewart]

Barry - I appreciate your well-reasoned response. I do, however disagree. I have tried to be objective, and don't think I am dismissing your statements out of hand.

So I'm just asking you to be objective (obviously you are his friend) and ask yourself or have your friend ask himself "what about riding when not high may make me a bit nervous or unable to concentrate."

This really isn't the issue. He is not, as a rule, nervous or unable to concentrate when he rides.

This guy is literally the best hardbooter I have ever met. He is almost always the fastest boarder in the racecourse, buzzed or not (and *no*, I really am not talking about myself! I think I'm getting pretty good, but I'm not there yet!). So it's really not true that he is at a disadvantage in any way by *not* being stoned.

When I've spoken to him about this, and as I said, I do feel the same way, when getting a little buzz on, it does tend to make one concentrate on the task at hand. This may be due to short-term memory issues (not being able to multitask as a result of this).

What this means is that you *have* to concentrate only on the carving, rather than the mortgage payment, the xmas shopping, etc. By creating a situation where you can only single task, then you can, and must, devote all of your faculties to THAT task, which in this case is snowboarding.

So, I ask you, objectively, why *this* cannot be true? Why can cannabis not be a performance-enhancing drug (at least for some people)?

You wouldn't say that steroids, or uppers, or ritalin, or whatever Barry Bonds is injecting, isn't a performance-enhancing drug, right? Well, why is this any different (other than preconceived stereotypes that potheads have to be in front of the TV with a remote control in one hand and a bag of Doritos in the other)?

[D-Sub]

Originally posted by dragon fly jones

The key line in any of this is THE **** IS NOT LEGAL. Right wrong or otherwise.

neither are BJs in many states.

[Mellow Yellow]

What this means is that you *have* to concentrate only on the carving, rather than the mortgage payment, the xmas shopping, etc.

funny... carving makes me forget about all of those things...

[FTA2R]

this is cool, no one freaking out yet. =)

JohnStewart,

thx for closely reading/considering my arguement. I think I can understand what you're saying. I'm really not at all familiar with the effects of pot on athletic performance, so I just can't comment there. Is it considered a performance enhancing drug? I wouldn't think so, but seems everything is these days.

your possible medical explanation seems plausible, but again, I'm not a dr. or pot expert so I just don't know. there are drugs out there, though, such as adderral/ritalin, etc that are probably more effective than pot for concentration, but of course you have to be diagnosed with a condition/ see a dr.

Why can cannabis not be a performance-enhancing drug (at least for some people)

You wouldn't say that steroids, or uppers, or ritalin, or whatever Barry Bonds is injecting, isn't a performance-enhancing drug, right?

One of my implied arguements here is that people should try to excel w/o these drugs. I think most of the general public feels that way. Look no further than the current MLB steriod issue- everyone is upset that Bonds "accidentally" used 'roids. Using performance enhacing drugs gives an unfair advantage. Personally, though, I'm not sure if pot is considered such a drug, or at least a potent one anyhow. I guess it doesn't matter that much unless your friend is competing on the World Cup level, but I assume that you think performance enhancing drugs in sports are unfair?

===

Barry

[johnstewart]

Originally posted by Barry

One of my implied arguements here is that people should try to excel w/o these drugs.

Yes, I gathered as much, and I think that is the stance from most of the people here who are looking down on people who smoke pot (especially while boarding, but probably in general). There is a belief that cannabis is "bad" and that people who use it are necessarily using it as a crutch somehow.

I think this belief is puritannical, patriarchial, and unfounded. Of course it can be abused, but use does not mean abuse.

In my opinion, anything anyone wants to drink, smoke, or shove up an orifice is fine with me as long as they're not hurting anyone else.

And the main point I was trying to make in this thread is that boarding after smoking cannabis is *not* in itself harmful to other people, as would it be if one was drunk on the ski hill and risking other people's lives due to the lack of motor control associated with alcohol inebriation.

I think most of the general public feels that way. Look no further than the current MLB steriod issue- everyone is upset that Bonds "accidentally" used 'roids. Using performance enhacing drugs gives an unfair advantage. Personally, though, I'm not sure if pot is considered such a drug, or at least a potent one anyhow. I guess it doesn't matter that much unless your friend is competing on the World Cup level, but I assume that you think performance enhancing drugs in sports are unfair?

Is cannabis a performance-enhancing drug? I don't know. I guess I have made that argument here, or at least stated that it helps with concentration.

I would say that if it is, it is minor. I would say it is more effective as an enjoyment-enhancing drug than as a performance-enhancing drug. It certainly does no good for the respiratory system, so almost certainly it is a detriment to, for example, cross-country skiiers. However, in the race course (at least in the Midwest), it is pretty much a sprint, and an anaerobic event, so that effect is minimized.

It certainly does have side effects that could be detrimental to some activities. For example, I could never play chess, or write computer code, well at all when under its effects (short-term memory being critical to both activities). However, I have not observed a loss in performance in those whom I have seen board or ski while under the influence.

Are performance-enhancing drugs, in general, unfair?

In my opinion, yes, but with the technology we have today, I'm not sure there is a good solution (with new designer drugs freshly available every year).

Certainly MLB is totally screwed up. NFL has got it down pretty well. Frequent random piss tests, etc. I honestly don't think most of the NFL is using steroids or other related substances. I honestly do think most of the MLB players do. I do not think Barry Bonds should ever be allowed into the Hall of Fame, and his "records" will always have an asterisk.

Should pot be banned at the professional (and Olympic) level? I don't really think so, even though I have made an argument that it can help performance. I think it's on the same scale as caffeine helping performance. But it seems the Olympics, even though the whole Olympic committee is itself seething with corruption, has decided that it should be banned.

That said, I doubt they'll be piss-testing at the top of the NASTAR course anytime soon, and I don't think most racers would think they are at an unfair disadvantage when competing with potheads. =)

[joecarve]

I was aiming for one of Barry's points, which is objectivity. A self-assessment of performance while under the influence necessarily affects the assessment; ie, how would you know if you're better when the difference is something that also affects problem-solving skills (one way or another)? You need to be evaluated by a different person (uh, one that isn't buzzed, BTW)...a correct frame of reference.

Maybe pot (or alcohol, or a 2lb-bag of M&M's, whatever) does make one a better rider. Are there side effects that may offset the gain? If it causes you to, say, be less concerned about looking uphill for straight-line riders/skiers, or adversely affect your reaction time...may not be worth it.

joe...

[Erik J]

Re: a peaceful non flaming debate- cool!

Pot has that effect.

[johnstewart]

Originally posted by joecarve I was aiming for one of Barry's points, which is objectivity. A self-assessment of performance while under the influence necessarily affects the assessment; ie, how would you know if you're better when the difference is something that also affects problem-solving skills (one way or another)? You need to be evaluated by a different person (uh, one that isn't buzzed, BTW)...a correct frame of reference.

Well, how do you know that you are a better snowboarder sober than you would be under the influence of cannabis?

You are making the *assumption* that this is the case, and unless you have objective evidence, as you have asked of me, then there is no reason to believe so.

There is accepted evidence, repeatedly shown by multiple studies, that alcohol adversely affects motor control (and hey, as an aside, I can personally tell that is the case when I am so affected; I do not need an outside observer to tell me I am).

There is no such evidence for cannabis intoxication. In fact, there is evidence (see my links earlier in thread) that the opposite is true.

It is not I who am making any assumptions; it is those who (as, it appears, you do) state that cannabis intoxiation is detrimental to snowboarding performance without *any* evidence that this is the case!

Furthermore, you have no evidence (that you have presented, anyway) that an observation cannot be accurately made by someone who is under the influence of cannabis.

I do agree to a point that self-assesment is no way to do a scientific study. I was merely making my statements as anecdotal evidence about what I have observed, while backing that up with controlled scientific studies that are not self-assesments nor anecdotal (admittedly about driving while under cannabis intoxication, but I think many of the same skills apply to snowboarding).

As for objective evidence, I have seen NASTAR times improve after imbibing cannabis on some riders. I have not done any careful studies on it, though, admittedly.

However, for you to state that I cannot make a valid observation if I am also under the influence is a baseless assumption on your part.

Maybe pot (or alcohol, or a 2lb-bag of M&M's, whatever) does make one a better rider. Are there side effects that may offset the gain? If it causes you to, say, be less concerned about looking uphill for straight-line riders/skiers, or adversely affect your reaction time...may not be worth it.

I have made my statements about the observations I have made, and I do not think that in those who I have observed that their judements were impaired in such a way.

Of course, this is anecdotal evidence. The only solid evidence we have to go on is the above quoted studies on automobiles and cannabis... there, the link was clear that it did not increase the chance of an accident (and in fact slightly reduced them).

Unless you have other evidence to the contrary, then any statement that cannabis must have an adverse effect on snowboarding (including observation of other skiiers) is no more than an assumption.

[D-Sub]

thing is...that same "more focused" state that one attains when smoking weed can be reached when 100% sober as well. Meditation, yoga, etc...many different ways to get there, and IMO the "drugs" one is rather lazy.

that said, in all honesty Id have to side with the YAYs on this one even tho I dont smoke anymore...when I used to when riding (skateboard or snow) I found myself far more fluid and freely BUT I find that I can get to "that place" with just a little more mental effort on my part now that I dont smoke (I get anxiety problems on weed now!)

[johnstewart]

Originally posted by D-Sub thing is...that same "more focused" state that one attains when smoking weed can be reached when 100% sober as well. Meditation, yoga, etc...many different ways to get there, and IMO the "drugs" one is rather lazy.

And that is a moral judgement, not a scientific one.

If I took the stance that others have made, I could make the assumption that since you are more focused on snowboarding after meditating, that you must be more dangerous and less observant! Therefore meditation and yoga should not be allowed for those about to ski! =) =)

How about I'll let you do the yoga, and you let me smoke a doob? ;)

[Guest Randy S.]

I can tell you from personal experience that smoking pot generally degrades the ability to navigate a race course successfully. Here we're not talking about looking uphill for oncoming skiers, or other obstacles. Just stationary gates. In the past two seasons, I've been beaten 3 or 4 times in our weekend-warrior race league. In two of those instances a bunch of us (not including the guys who beat me) had a "map-reading" session before the race. In one case I got to the bottom hoping I could argue against a DQ by saying that I had indeed navigated around the outside of the stubby. Not much chance of that when you are wearing the panel around your ankles. :D

I would have to argue that while I'm not sure you are necessarily a danger to yourself or others on the hill because of THC intake, you are not able to perform up to your normal capabilities.

Joe, maybe we can set up a true experiment this season. We'll set a bunch of gates and time ourselves through the runs. Run a couple of times each and take the best time. Then do some map-reading and run again to see which gets us the better time.

Randy

[Strider]

We can accomplish the same test that Randy proposes at our hill as I know John and the guy he's talking about. I can also be the sober guy who objectively looks at the riding skills of the each.

That said, I know that the times I have smoked I am a useless pile of S**t and can't concentrate on anything so I would argue that like many things it can affect people differently. If I smoke I'm not a danger to anyone because I'm sitting in a corner somewhere laughing at nothing and trying real hard not to fall asleep :rolleyes:

[D-Sub]

Originally posted by johnstewart

And that is a moral judgement, not a scientific one.

If I took the stance that others have made, I could make the assumption that since you are more focused on snowboarding after meditating, that you must be more dangerous and less observant! Therefore meditation and yoga should not be allowed for those about to ski! =) =)

How about I'll let you do the yoga, and you let me smoke a doob? ;)

sorry bro but it has ZILCH to do with morals whatsoever. are you referring to the "lazy" comment?

it IS lazy to rely on substances to attain that which can be attained with a little more discipline. You can argue until youre blue in the face but the fact remains that "convenience" is just another word for laziness

I never said I meditate before riding though, and Im DEFINITELY not tryin to take your weed away from you. I think people that smoke regularly are escapists, definitely, but...did you notice the part where I agreed with you that pot might make one feel more focused when riding? I used to skate stoned all the time! loved it! snowboarding too. but now that I have anxiety attacks (what other people call "paranoia") when I smoke (I actually get nauseous believe it or not!) I have to find other ways to find "the zone"

you know...I play 8 and 9 ball competitively sometimes, and I know _for a fact_ that if I can drop a valium and drink a beer or two I will play 150% better than sober. I think too much when sober, and I question my skills. Get me a little buzzed on mild downers and Im the epitome of confidence

but I _never_ ever ever drink or other when playing competitively. That doubt I have is something I need to get past on my own, and I am 100% certain that it is possible.

anyway...its not about morals, its about pride of achievement without "assistance"

[D-Sub]

heh. map reading. fckin hilarious

[joecarve]

Originally posted by Randy S.

Joe, maybe we can set up a true experiment this season. We'll set a bunch of gates and time ourselves through the runs. Run a couple of times each and take the best time. Then do some map-reading and run again to see which gets us the better time.

Randy

We'll need a control group that remains "unmodified" for all runs. And reputable scientist to conduct everything...DaveK seems like a good candidate. I'm sure he has a white lab coat and a clipboard... :D

joe...

[johnstewart]

Originally posted by $trider

That said, I know that the times I have smoked I am a useless pile of S**t and can't concentrate on anything so I would argue that like many things it can affect people differently. If I smoke I'm not a danger to anyone because I'm sitting in a corner somewhere laughing at nothing and trying real hard not to fall asleep :rolleyes:

True, and I have the pictures to prove it. ;)

[johnstewart]

Originally posted by D-Sub

sorry bro but it has ZILCH to do with morals whatsoever. are you referring to the "lazy" comment?

Yes, I am referring to the "lazy" comment.

I think that expressing an opinion that someone else's choices are lazy is a moral judgement, yes.

Heck, based on the fact that you find it harder to get into the "zone" via cannabis ingestion (due to your paranoia), I could argue that it's lazy for you to give up on it as a means to find your "zone"! But I personally wouldn't pass judgement that you are lazy, as you seem to have done to those who choose to smoke cannabis to heighten their enjoyment of and performance in snowboarding.