FWIW: My "soft boot" set up

[bobdea]

I've gone from my AF700's to SB323s. Added yellow top and blue bottom BTS springs. Very comfy. I can ride my SG Cult about anywhere. Do tight trees, steep bumps, launch off stuff, ride powder, and carve groomers. All but the later were doable in the AF's but a lot less comfortable. I love softer flex in boots for AM/FC type riding. Use standard SnowPro Race and Nidecker FC bindings. Might be a better route than totally cutting up a stiff race boot.

word, similar to why I don't use ski boots.

[Puddy Tat]

Why not run a set of Sidewinders and Track 225s? Would seem to give you a similar feel but better engineered set-up. The cyclical loading Jack mentions will eventually allow the toe block screws to loosen or break.

FWIW as of this year I freeride with mondo size 28 track 225s on yellow elastomered TD3 Step-ins on a 165cm long 25cm wide board with 50/45 angles. At 215 lbs it feels to me like a soft set-up. In fact if i lock the boots down i can easily over power the softer nose of the board in softer snow. It feels extremely surfy if I leave the boots unlocked. Personally I just don't like SB anymore.

Most recent SB experiences were the 08/09 and 09/10 seasons with Burton Driver X boots, and Burton Freestyles both on 25 and 26 cm waisted boards using Nidecker Act One Carbons and Flow NXT AT bindings. Other than the continual boot out issues, and foot pain, I actaully got shin bang from the Driver X boots.

Dave

[DiveBomber]

this was more of an informative post.

Ive been riding this set up for a while now and it provided the best of both worlds. with the boots unlocked, I get almost unresisted flex (with the soft boot liners)

As far as BX, I have always raced in HB So I have a bit of experience there, and I have always been tweaking my set up.

I have malamutes and CO2's they still suck. To get the response I want I have to tighten the boot so much it hurts my calf after just staning in them for 5 min.... If i really try to carve I get NASTY boot out

I cant get the angles I want, and/or ride a 225 wide board (size 12 boots)

with a higher front angle on the Sofboot binding it sucks becuase they have the forward lean built in. and using a cant with the SB bindings in the rear feels weird.

this just feels way more comfortable!

with this set up I have my feet set perfectly(little bit of toe lift, perfect angles, rear cant wedge and the side flex lets me get comfortable), and can ride wutangs/rollers and hit jumps, while having the stability I need.

I can still lean into it if I need and absorb the terrain, and pump and still keep the board flat.

This is the equivalent of a super-moto set up.

these are like softboots with the bindings built around them.

these completely eliminate the need for soft boots for all but hitting rails.

many of you still think of these like Hardboots because they have a plastic shell, But I could almost ride this set up with out the upper cuff!

This set up is Biomechanically correct, Softboots are not.

I tried SW's but they didnt have enough side flex, compared to this set up.

NOW I just need a custom board 233 waist, 12/14 sidecut!

if you are ever in town and have size 11.5-12.5 feet you are welcome to try it out.

[KingCrimson]

So...you basically made three strap bindings with a loose highback.

What angles were you finding stiff softies to be so poor?

FWIW, hardboots that are too soft balloon outwards too. That's why the Raichle cant mechanism breaks.

[Jack M]

this was more of an informative post. ...

As far as BX, I have always raced in HB So I have a bit of experience there...

But are you consistently winning? If not then I'm not sure about the, um, informativeness.

[DiveBomber]

But are you consistently winning? If not then I'm not sure about the, um, informativeness.

Well I was way more comfortable in HB, than SB, I would really suck in SB's. I have on course experience, and can translate that into what I need, So for anyone who wants to make the SB argument, well this is as close as Im ever going to get!

[softbootsurfer]

So...you basically made three strap bindings with a loose highback.

what does that do ? nothing !

To get the pressure up the leg off the ankle requires the highback to be "fixed" then your

Softboots can feel oh so Soft... but do not tell anyone OK ? ;)

[DiveBomber]

So...you basically made three strap bindings with a loose highback.

Mmmm kinda, But its not just about that, its much more comfortable and more responsive interface.

What angles were you finding stiff softies to be so poor?

33-5 (I wanted to go higher in the rear, but it felt really uncomfortable)

FWIW, hardboots that are too soft balloon outwards too. That's why the Raichle cant mechanism breaks.

I dont recall ever hearing a problem about that with the burtons, its not the "softness" that it giving me flex, I have made it so the boot flexes enough. It flexes as much as I can bend my ankle.

[DiveBomber]

So...you basically made three strap bindings with a loose highback.

what does that do ? nothing !

To get the pressure up the leg off the ankle requires the highback to be "fixed" then your

Softboots can feel oh so Soft... but do not tell anyone OK ? ;)

actually a LARGE part of it is pressure distibution in front of the ankle, something softboots dont do well. Infact I think, I would like 3 strap bindings even LESS!

[KingCrimson]

I dont recall ever hearing a problem about that with the burtons, its not the "softness" that it giving me flex, I have made it so the boot flexes enough. It flexes as much as I can bend my ankle.

28* of splay? No wonder you weren't comfortable.

Do you mean you increased the boots range of motion? My Dalbello Voodoo ski boots give me that much range of motion.

I'd be much faster to blame poor stance choice or board choice before blaming softies.

[nantucket carver]

i had done the same to my 125's long ago , it was a bit more "hackish" but result was the same and then took the pin out of the lean adjuster locker giving a bit more play , been a nice set up.

[bobdea]

i had done the same to my 125's long ago , it was a bit more "hackish" but result was the same and then took the pin out of the lean adjuster locker giving a bit more play , been a nice set up.

just a FYI when you start removing pins or screws from boots or adding them to boots you often increase the likelihood of adding pins or screws to your lower body.

[trailertrash]

... I make SB into HB so I know your urges

Not really.

[softbootsurfer]

Not really.

sorry to thread jack Dive man, by the way I certainly respect your desire to make your ride the best it can be!

Trailerman,

Do you have a set of my bindings ? I rode some HB's last year to feel the difference.

I have also compared the flex with many riders here in our area, the lateral flex is very

close to the Ibex ? that Joerg was using last year and the forward flex changes if I use

soft softboots or use the Malamutes when the conditions get harder... the top strap I use is

a piece of 1 and 1/2 in. by 1/8 in. leather so it stretches as I apply force to it while the ratchet

buckles provide many settings depending on powder or groom conditions. If you make it

out here for SES sometime or anytime for that matter, please let me know and we could meet

up for a run and compare our binding flexes, then you could comment on that observation.

The set up I have now is no where near the old 3 strap set ups of years ago...

[trailertrash]

Trailerman,

Do you have a set of my bindings ? I rode some HB's last year to feel the difference.

I have also compared the flex with many riders here in our area, the lateral flex is very

close to the Ibex ? that Joerg was using last year and the forward flex changes if I use

soft softboots or use the Malamutes when the conditions get harder... the top strap I use is

a piece of 1 and 1/2 in. by 1/8 in. leather so it stretches as I apply force to it while the ratchet

buckles provide many settings depending on powder or groom conditions. If you make it

out here for SES sometime or anytime for that matter, please let me know and we could meet

up for a run and compare our binding flexes, then you could comment on that observation.

The set up I have now is no where near the old 3 strap set ups of years ago...

The real test would be to bring your contraption here.

[dano]

I mostly ride Nordica sbh's with vibram soles and snowpros/race plates and I love the flex and all mountain versatility. Crazy comportable and light.

If this setup works for you I say rock it. Gotta love custom tinkering. Especially when hard boot options are so limited and won't get any better.

My only warning would be that I have stripped the threaded inserts on those same older green aluminum race plates before ( once on the mountain, another time just tightening them ) and don't trust them.

I've had no problems with the newer "orange" style race plates that have a beefier base ( same as ibex I think )

[BlueB]

Need is mother of invention. Carry on, make your dream ride! Be safe and check all the moving parts and screws often.

Post a video of actual racing on that setup, please.

Softy boots and bindings suck as a concept. They reverted the evolution of the snow sports 50 years back. Instead of exploring the possibilities of hard shells and making them better for snowboarding, the industry took the low (and cheap) road and softies took over, helped by the media hype.

I freeride on 22.5 wide board, 47/30 angles and floppiest plastic plates I could find (Blax/Proflex/F2 RS Carve), with small toe lift front, and heel lift and cant back. Tons of lateral slop and a bit of toe/heel direction slop too... I guess pretty similar feel to what you've got, minus the damping. I used the risers before, but ditched them (26.5 boots). My boots are probably still way to stiff for this business, but I do not want to compromise the carving part of equation too much, or to be short of support to my wonky ankles/feet...

KC, big spaly is great thing for freeriding. Higher front angle still alows for a half-decent heel side carve, while the flat rear angle adds ROM and stabillity and makes sliding turns easier, as well as ocatioanl switch... One needs to set the lift's cant properly and requirement might be different then a typical hi angles near parallel stance.

[DiveBomber]

Well I need the risers with 29.5 boots. Actually its making me question the 235 board vs 225. Im contemplating having a custom 235 wide board for BX made(14 SCR so its narrower at the boots then a comparable board) I dont really get any boot drag as is. But with the widerboard I could go a couple Degere lower on the rear foot, for BX.

Heel lift, and to some degree toe are critical. which is why i ride a 23.5" stance, with out it id have to go much narrower and loose a lost of stability.

Although I have a K2 eldorado 174, and palmer X 167 that im riding at low angles like 27-33/9-15 with out cants, but the side flex is enough that i can ride wide stance on it.

Blue You should try the boots softer, you use your ankles more and have a more surfy feeling. But you can still "lean" into your heelside turns.

[softbootsurfer]

Blue B says... Softy boots and bindings suck as a concept. They reverted the evolution of the snow sports 50 years back. Instead of exploring the possibilities of hard shells and making them better for snowboarding, the industry took the low (and cheap) road and softies took over, helped by the media hype.

C'mon B Man

some Strong Words here and plain wrong as well ! Trailertrash and Jack, you want an example of an Elitist post ?

[Jack M]

some Strong Words here and plain wrong as well ! Trailertrash and Jack, you want an example of an Elitist post ?

I agree he's wrong, but this example does not prove the allegations of new equipment snobbery in that other thread. It's anti-softboot snobbery, of which some amount is to be on expected on a site with a hardboot agenda. Not saying it's right, just the nature of the game.

[bobdea]

alright, I should not have to say this but apparently you people need to hear it, softboots don't suck. you suck. that's the issue. yes, I ride plates mostly, on alpine type snowboards, plates work better on alpine boards. softboots work great on wider typically softer boards.

[Steve Prokopiw]

we do suck on softboots.But I know I don't suck on hardboots.I have no problem with softboots but I am twice the rider on hardboots all over the mountain.It isn't about my edging skills or a lack of finesse,I just have crappy ankles;sprained them both many times as a kid and early on in snowboarding.My knees are tired but much stronger and more durable compared to my ankles,so hardboots just make sense for me.That,and laces suck:)

[nantucket carver]

I'm not opposed to soft boots if they offered me the support i "think i need", i broke both ankles in a big air contest back in 93' before stimilon and people were building proper jumps and transitions. i then turned to racing, but i was comfortable with jumps. now later in life it has just become a trial and error of finding the right set up to do BX. i'm a firm believer that if a freestyle guy can carve, a plate guy can freeride and have fun to. whose to judge? just have fun ripping

[BlueB]

Blue B says... Softy boots and bindings suck as a concept. They reverted the evolution of the snow sports 50 years back. Instead of exploring the possibilities of hard shells and making them better for snowboarding, the industry took the low (and cheap) road and softies took over, helped by the media hype.

C'mon B Man

some Strong Words here and plain wrong as well! Trailertrash and Jack, you want an example of an Elitist post ?

Just an opinion, not elitist at all and not picking on anyone riding the softies. I ride with softbooting friends often, I teach softbooters how to ride on regular basis and I ride softies (when I absolutelly have to). I've defended softbooters too (you included, I believe), from excessive attacks by the "Talibans". I've put enough days on softies (150 or so?) to hurt my already bad feet and I used some of the top-of-the-line stuff... I can accept that I might suck on softies and probably suck a bit less on h/boots. That still doesn't stop the softies from sucking AS A CONCEPT and I'll explain why (in my opinion, again):

Softies rely on wrong materials and wrong concepts. Soft materials simply do not have the propper definition and durabillity to retain the foot/anckle support and uniform flex longer then brake-in period and become really mushy after a year, or so, of hard use. So many Malamute users (you included) confimed that the boot becomes much softer after just a while and that plastic spines sometimes just snap... Softies do not have the precise hinge point, precise closure mechanism that can be set and repeated easilly, no rigid soles, etc, etc.

As for the bindings, they use a system that is complicated, fragile, clumsy to get in and hangs around when not strapped in. Furthermore, the boots and bindings of various manufacturesrs do not always fit each other well...

Soft boots (and strap bindings) are what ski industry abandoned almost 50 years ago. Unfortunate devide between 2 branches of sport worked for softies remaining more popular and it was convinient for the industry (I'll explain why). So, the developmnet of the propper hard boots/bindings suitable for freeride never happened. Otherwise, the advantages of plastic-fantastic are obvious: durabillity, precission, consistency, staying dry, staying warm, ease of use, good soles... With propper RD and enginerring it would be easy to make good, light, flexible, tunable boots/bindings. But... it's not cheap.

And sorry, but industry just loved the downsides of softies... Is it better to sell the product that needs to be replaced every year or 2, or the one that lasts 5-10? Softies are easy to re-fashion and great part of the sales ARE about fashion. Tooling is required for less parts and cheaper. Parts that are injected can be used on almost all sizes, unlike h/boots, where you need tooling for every size or 2. Easier to outsource too. Quite easy to understand, no one was really interested to spend mega bucks developing something that's way harder to develop, while media was already pimping the other product big time. H/boots had no chance...

Anyways, softieas are becomming stiffer and better, h/boots are becoming more tunable, plates are becoming softer and with improved ROM. They might eventually come to the same level of performance...

[MUD]

OK, I was going to stay out of this, but........

Softboots:

The majority of snowboarding is done to emulate what can be done on a skateboard, on the snow......

Are your feet attached to a skateboard?

Most kids riding today want the MOST flexible boot and still be able to control the edges somewhat. They use their ankles to angle the board on a slide, they tweak, they twist. I other words, softboots were and are not designed to do the type of riding YOU are trying to do on them.

In the proper setting, softboots ROCK!

Flame on good buddies.

This post contains a few generalizations, please just roll with them...;)